Actually they'll probably invoke the "global dimming" point, despite the fact that is is already under control.

And if that doesn't work, it will be Man Bear Pig (i.e., the AGW version of Satan) trying to seduce AGW proponents from their faith into a life of "environmental crime".

"Aye... to be fooled by the Man Bear Pig and him mammoth air conditioner and ye shall be forever curs-ed to burn on the Earth one degree warmer. May your faith remain strong and your hate for the one-carbon two-oxygen remain burning; for only the latter, my children, is the path to ye eternal salvation".



On a more serious note, I personally do not trust the motives of AGW proponents... the governments of the developed countries stand to rake in an enormous sum of money from all these "carbon taxes", et cetera. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if the reason they were at first hesitant to don this AGW catastrophism nonsense is that only recently have they realized that the money brought in from extra taxes and inefficient (=more expensive) energy sources could rebuild the portion of the economy undermined by the removal of fossil fuels.

Furthermore, oftentimes opponents of the AGW hypothesis (or should I say "faith"?) are threatened in various ways... not much of a surprise if they were being censored, too.



[edit on 22-3-2008 by SlyCM (work)]

Originally posted by Roper
The church of global warming may come to a stand still.

Roper

PS I've been saying that this Global warming nonsense has been nothing more than a hoax.

not really. Only if you think that CO2 is the only factor in climate would this really be a big issue. It might plateau for several years due to natural variations outweighing anthropogenic for a while, then turn again.

Climate has numerous factors acting on it. CO2 will be an underlying long-term forcing, and it won't go away for quite a while.

Roper.. I know it and you know it. But rest assured that the AGW spin machine will be hard at work. This is their reputation on the line. They have made so many outrageous claims over the last 10 years that many will have a hard time finding grants once this whole Global Warming conspiracy falls apart. Things are falling apart rapidly and you can see those who have bet their reputations on this really fighting hard.

You know Indy, I think it's just the money that these so called scientist care about. AND the news media just want something to scare us with and there is always the " we all are going to die" posters.

This planet can take care of it's self.

Roper

to all the deniers, despite the TRUTH behind AGW, global warming, and climate change, you all are on the other side of the line PERIOD. Humans now are to plentiful to live on this planet with minimal impacts. Stand up for your beliefs all you want just remember this, when your children or grandchildren are suffering because of the state of this planets natural systems it was people such as your self who were to concerned with "the truth" to stand up and do something about the way we humans treat our only home.

Sure over the last 10 years there has been cooling, laughable because so often it is the deniers who state that the 100's of years AGW believers use as evidence is too short a period.

I am done with the likes of you people, this is our planet COLLECTIVELY and i am sick to death watching and listening to you people defend the human races current methods of exploitation and destruction.

Even if it some day turns out that humans are not playing a roll in climate change we are playing the largest roll in making this planet uninhabitable and you people are the right hand men of destruction, i have NO love for any of you.

Originally posted by Roper

This planet can take care of it's self.

Roper

This is exactly what I am talking about, What are you roper? What is your background, what do you know about the "planet taking care of itself". Honestly as a person who does understand how this planet functions I would have to say that is one of the most pathetic, uneducated, right wing spin machine comments I have herd in a few days. I think you just talk to "fit in" and "gain praise" for your cohort. You are a perfect example of the weight that is dragging our race down, well done.

[edit on 24-3-2008 by Animal]

Originally posted by Animal
t



Even if it some day turns out that humans are not playing a roll in climate change we are playing the largest roll in making this planet uninhabitable and you people are the right hand men of destruction, i have NO love for any of you.

Originally posted by Roper

This planet can take care of it's self.

Roper

This is exactly what I am talking about, What are you roper? What is your background, what do you know about the "planet taking care of itself". Honestly as a person who does understand how this planet functions I would have to say that is one of the most pathetic, uneducated, right wing spin machine comments I have herd in a few days. I think you just talk to "fit in" and "gain praise" for your cohort. You are a perfect example of the weight that is dragging our race down, well done.

[edit on 24-3-2008 by Animal]

You see Animal this is what I'm talking about.

"Even if it some day turns out that humans are not playing a roll in climate change we are playing the largest roll in making this planet uninhabitable and you people are the right hand men of destruction, i have NO love for any of you. "

You are giving yourself and your cause wiggle room for you THEORY.

So you want to know my background huh? Well I'll tell you. At 9yrs old I got my first horse and first bred heifer, by 18 I earned my State Farmer medal of the Oklahoma FFA.

I went to college at OSU, studying Agriculture Education. Graduated and had various jobs and for the last several years I am a production agriculturist and researcher for a university. I work in the weather, I watch the weather and I'm 90% of the time outside in the weather.

Now, what the hell do you do? Besides getting your panties in a bunch and wringing your hands.

Because quite frankly I've had it with your kind!

Roper

I'm in the Panhandle and have been for 20 years. The weather here is predictable in the fact that it can't be predicted.

Dry land wheat will make here about every 5 years. Last year it made, this year no way.

The only thing we are past due on is a blizzard, which I can due without.

There are more and more meteorologist and scientists coming forward stating that global warming is a hoax.

Weather like so many things works in waves, highs and lows. I just don't think we are doomed.

Roper

I am done with the likes of you people, this is our planet COLLECTIVELY and i am sick to death watching and listening to you people defend the human races current methods of exploitation and destruction.

Even if it some day turns out that humans are not playing a roll in climate change we are playing the largest roll in making this planet uninhabitable and you people are the right hand men of destruction, i have NO love for any of you.

Think so?

I'll tell you what I'm sick of. I'm sick of watching jungles, reefs, and other relatively sensitive environments (what I live for), as well as my fellow man who is unlucky enough to be stuck in a developing country, be eclipsed by an apocalypse hypothesis that, as of right now, has no proof and little supporting evidence.

I am sick of watching billions of dollars be poured into fighting something that for all we know doesn't actually exist and will take hundreds of years to begin to affect us anyways, while REAL dangers to the environment and fellow man occurring RIGHT NOW are getting the scraps. I am also sick of watching people driving around in hybrid cars or using corn ethanol thinking that they're helping us out but are actually hurting the environment more than they are helping it.

Your feud is not with me, friend. It is with those people that are actually harming the environment. Not with those that are refuting a hypothesis that has no evidence, and is managing to suck funds out of REAL solutions to REAL problems.

Originally posted by SlyCM

Your feud is not with me, friend. It is with those people that are actually harming the environment. Not with those that are refuting a hypothesis that has no evidence, and is managing to suck funds out of REAL solutions to REAL problems.

Perhaps you should pay closer attention to what I am talking about man. My point goes well beyond GW / CC. I am talking about a paradigm of thought.

Originally posted by Animal

Originally posted by Roper

This planet can take care of it's self.

Roper

This is exactly what I am talking about...

[edit on 24-3-2008 by Animal]

My issue is not GW /CC really but our understanding of our interactions with this planet as a whole. I am tired of all the people who are so ready to dismiss that humans could be causing problems. Just like int he quote I was originally replying to.

I'll tell you what I'm sick of. I'm sick of watching jungles, reefs, and other relatively sensitive environments (what I live for), as well as my fellow man who is unlucky enough to be stuck in a developing country, be eclipsed by an apocalypse hypothesis that, as of right now, has no proof and little supporting evidence.

GW /CC is just one of many on a long list of disasters waiting to befall this planet as a direct result of how we humans treat it PERIOD I am sick of the willful, consistent denial of the need for humans to REMAKE the way we do things. GW /CC could all prove to be completely non-anthropogenic, but as of today the majority of research would suggest that we are playing an instrumental roll. That SHOULD be enough for a people who respect their home (Us / Earth) to make the decision to mitigate any POSSIBLE damage their are doing to the planet they live on.

A changing climate IS a real problem, like it or not. Humans COULD be largly responsible, like it or not. It IS our responsibility to ensure our actions are not deleterious to the ability of everyone now and in the future to survive on this Space Ship Earth.

So maybe my feud is not with you, that is fine, but I am pissed. I am pissed because I KNOW we can do so much better but so often refuse to "see the light"

Originally posted by forestlady

Good post Animal. I agree that we are harming our planet beyond repair. The Earth DOES have finite resources and when they're all used up, they can't be replaced. We can't keep clearcutting the Amazon and other forests and jungles, we can't keep polluting our oceans, soil, water and air and still expect to have a very high quality of life.
Whether you believe in AGW or not...(snip)

please tell me how CO2 emission reduction at any cost factors into forest preservation?

let'S put it this way: there was a time, when charcoal was used for pretty much anything requiring somewhat high temperature, from metallurgy to glass manufacturing. today, we're using coal (or, in some cases, electricity) and natural gas, respectively. wood consumption was thereby severely reduced, obviously.

today's biofuel efforts are trying hard to partially reverse that, essentially by burning food crops, which is of course accompanied by, *drumroll* creeping deforestation. ie. more of the same. at the same time, people keep flushing used fats and oils and there is no concerted effort to process waste into fuel oil. when you can do garbage, you can do pretty much anything, AND there are of course lots of landfills which are wating for processing. how's that for environmentally friendly fuel? use cheap gas and actually clean up at the same time?

i said it before and i will say it again, the mentality is best displayed in CFLs, instead of reusing the transformer part (which lasts a loong time) and changing lamps only (saving money in the process bad for revenue, can't have that), people are continaully tossing perfectly good electrical equipment and even feel good about wasting copper and being ripped of on top of that.

how come some tired forum poster like me can easily come up with that between changing background mp3s? it's because they're playing you like drugged toddlers, that's why. AGW and other 'save-the world' events and movements only serve to keep people cooupied while enforcing the laws of denied resources** through the backdoor.




what you said can lead only to the kind of conclusions i've been preaching for a long time here on the forums, namely that there are truely pressing environmental issues, which are summarily being cast aside and ignored, courtesy of the AGW faith. lies have no place in science, because even if the intentions are allededly *good* whatever that means, they develop a life of their own and will only serve to disillusion ever more people and muddy the waters for everyone.


sometimes i view humanity as some kind of experiment, trying to ascertain how much nonsense can be inflicted upon us before something happens.

PS: ** while self-explanatory, writing it out and giving an example will complicate denial, so:

if the suppliers are able to 'poison the well' they will certainly do so, because they will then be able to sell the bucket they've just pulled up at a premium.

f-ex. ivory hunters kill elephants, while the maximised yield strategy would be to maximise their numbers and collect the tusks once they die. they don't rot anyway and elephants pile up in chosen spots before they die.

[edit on 25.3.2008 by Long Lance]

A changing climate IS a real problem, like it or not. Humans COULD be largly responsible, like it or not.

...and I COULD be hit by a green golf ball from China right now, like it or not. But, until that happens, or if the golf ball is actually proven to be coming, I'll be skeptical. Will I get out of the way? Yes... as long as that action won't somehow harm me or anyone else. That's how responsible science works.

I also beg to differ on the idea that it is a "real problem". In terms of how dangerous it is to the human race or environment, I wouldn't even put it in the top ten. My reason behind this is because the Quaternary period has been in and out of several ice ages, with extinction only occurring at the end of the last one. This involved the loss of land-living megafauna such as Megalania or Mammuthus, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest this was due to overhunting and had little to do with climate change. We also have the Holocene Maximum, a period warmer than today, that all known fauna survived.

Otherwise, I agree most of what you posted Animal, and also very strongly with this, as it seems to echo what I have posted:

what you said can lead only to the kind of conclusions i've been preaching for a long time here on the forums, namely that there are truely pressing environmental issues, which are summarily being cast aside and ignored, courtesy of the AGW faith. lies have no place in science, because even if the intentions are allededly *good* whatever that means, they develop a life of their own and will only serve to disillusion ever more people and muddy the waters for everyone.

Thank you, Long Lance. Great post.

The interesting thing about the north pole melting is that waters near Sitka Alaska for example, have been as high as 62F, while it's 36F down here in Puget Sound; so the waters are both warmer than waters south (and thus can't be explained by currents) and warmer than the air. So where does that warmth come from? I suspect underwater volcanic activity is playing a non-trivial role.

i think the climate change sceptics really dont see the big picture.

modern human civilization has thrived in the stable climate of the past 10,000 years. Indeed the stable climate is credited with the expansion of human civilization which is thought to have started in the middle east. (reading/writing etc)

at present millions of people around the world dont have electricity, big populations like china/india want to modernise and have all the mod cons the western world has. If you think its a good idea to throw caution to the wind and build more fossil fuel power stations to satisfy the demand i think your crazy and irresponsible.

sure the earth will still be here, we could burn all the fossil fuels we have, cut down all the forrests, degrade the atmosphere to a point where we cant breath it, build underground shelters with purifiers keep humanity on life support and stay there until a few million years pass and the earth recovers.

why would you want to do that? there may be changes in the climate we cant control. There could be another ice age in 10,000 years that we cant do anything about, we will have to adapt but to inflict destruction on ourselves?

we may aswell just push the button and nuke ourselves now, what the hell eh? we have to die sometime.

you know people who are sceptical about advanced civilizations existing elswhere in the galaxy point to the "great silence". Im really starting to think their comes a point where all civs destroy themselves through one means or another. maybe bomb themslves back to the stoneage or destroy their habitat. Its really looking that way for us im afraid

[edit on 29-3-2008 by yeti101]

i think the climate change sceptics really dont see the big picture.

You mean that one that includes Earth's history past the last few thousand years? That one that is quietly ignored whenever some new speculation regarding AGW catastrophism pops up?

at present millions of people around the world dont have electricity, big populations like china/india want to modernise and have all the mod cons the western world has. If you think its a good idea to throw caution to the wind and build more fossil fuel power stations to satisfy the demand i think your crazy and irresponsible.

Typical Westerner band-wagon-jumper attitude. "We can have it, but... you can't, because it'll wreck the Earth," says the healthy, well-fed, entertained, clear-skinned, vegetarian young man/woman to the starving, disease-ridden person living in a developing country, who is currently just able, by working all day, to provide for there two out of three kids... the third one having recently starved to death or died of some crazy disease.

If the US and Canada (whom I single out because of their current "we hate fossil fuels but we also hate nuclear" attitude) are so concerned over global warming, and also want to help out developing nations, why don't they start building nuclear plants and ship the oil to Africa, so they can develop and build nuclear plants of their own? Radical I know, but only a little more so, and with much greater benefit, than what current "going green" trends or the Kyoto Protocol wish to uphold.

but to inflict destruction on ourselves?

I am afraid I don't understand. So all these fossil fuels and felling of forests have no benefit whatsoever to us?

I have a proposal: why don't we worry about what IS destroying us and biodiversity NOW, instead of what COULD in a few hundred years? Focus on creating sustainability and conservation, instead of devoting a huge proportion of our resources to fighting something that may or may not be within our control?

Double post. ISP problems.

[edit on 30-3-2008 by SlyCM (work)]