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Originally posted by mageofzhalfir
Jesus wasn't even close to living like a monk.
The purpose of this article is to provide evidence that YAHSHUA (JESUS) WAS PRIMARILY ASSOCIATED WITH THE ESSENES OF MOUNT CARMEL IN NORTHERN ISRAEL, not the Essenes of Qumran in Southern Israel. Certainly, Yahshua and the Northern Essenes had ongoing contact with their brethren in the South, but he was not "raised and trained at Qumran" like many in the modern Essene movement believe.
Ebionites [Aramaic,=poor], Jewish-Christian sect of rural ancient Palestine, of the first centuries after Jesus. There were two groups, according to Origen. The Judaic Ebionites held closely to Mosaic law and regarded Jesus as a miracle-working prophet and St. Paul as an apostate. Gnostic Ebionites believed Christ to be a spirit, invisible to men, giving him the title "Prophet
Josephus reports four main sects or schools of Judaism: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots. The earliest followers of Jesus were known as Nazarenes, and perhaps later, Ebionites, and form an important part of the picture of Palestinian Jewish groups in late 2nd Temple times.
The Ebionite/Nazarene movement was made up of the mostly Jewish/Israelite, followers of John the Baptizer, and later Jesus, who were concentrated in Palestine and surrounding regions, and led by “James the Just,” oldest brother of Jesus, flourishing between the years 30-80 CE.
In The Other Gospels, Cameron makes the following observations: "The Gospel of the Ebionites (Gos. Eb.) is a gospel harmony preserved in a few quotations in the writings of Epiphanius (a church writer who lived at the end of the fourth century C.E.). The original title of this gospel is unknown. The designation customary today is based on the fact that this was the gospel probably used by the Ebionites, a group of Greek-speaking Jewish Christians who were prominent throughout the second and third centuries. Epiphanius incorrectly entitles this the 'Hebrew' gospel, and alleges that it is an abridged, truncated version of the Gospel of Matthew. Whereas the Gospel of the Ebionites is indeed closely related to Matthew, examination of the extant fragments reveals that much of the text is a harmony, composed in Greek, of the Gospels Matthew and Luke (and, probably, the Gospel of Mark as well). Although Irenaeus (late in the second century) attests to the existence of this gospel, we are dependent solely upon the quotations given by Epiphanius for our knowledge of the contents of the text."
The Ebionite Community is the living continuation of the Jewish religious movement of Jesus. Christianity is the religion of Paul and others, and not part of the biblical faith and revelation of the God of Israel nor is it of Jesus. (Please note that we have used "Jesus" to clarify for our Christian readers. We call him Yeshua or Yahshua, and will use Yeshua from this point on in the site.)
We declare the man Paul of Tarsus, the false teacher against the mark of Covenant and God's Torah, to be outside of the Way taught by Yeshua, the anointed, son of Maria and Yosef. The Ebionite Community is the only real "mission to the gentiles."
We call upon the gentiles to repent, to abandon paganism and the perverse testament, and enter into true covenant through Torah, circumcision, and immersion in order to submit and prepare for the Reign of God as brothers exhibiting good works. (How can you talk about accepting God or His "kingdom" at some future event or time if you reject His rules clearly given now?)
By this name were designated one or more early Christian sects infected with Judaistic errors.
Originally posted by masqua
Did Paul hijack the teachings and story of Jesus for political reasons?
Originally posted by CyberTruth
I always felt that Jesus (from what I interpreted from the gospels) was very anti church. ... was not dependent on a church or church leader.
He first entered Jerusalem amicably; then suddenly turning upon the defenseless city, he murdered, plundered, and burnt through its length and breadth. The men were butchered, women and children sold into slavery, and in order to give permanence to the work of desolation, the walls and numerous houses were torn down. The old City of David was fortified anew by the Syrians, and made into a very strong fortress completely dominating the city. Having thus made Jerusalem a Greek colony, the king's attention was next turned to the destruction of the national religion. A royal decree proclaimed the abolition of the Jewish mode of worship; Sabbaths and festivals were not to be observed; circumcision was not to be performed; the sacred books were to be surrendered and the Jews were compelled to offer sacrifices to the idols that had been erected. On Kislew (Nov.-Dec.) 25, 168, the "abomination of desolation" (Dan. xi. 31, xii. 11) was set up on the altar of burnt offering in the Temple, and the Jews required to make obeisance to it. This was probably the Olympian Zeus, or Baal Shamem.See Abomination of Desolation.
They became the dominant priestly party during the Greek and Roman period of Jewish history, and the name, whether bestowed seriously or in irony, originated doubtless in their pretensions to the descendants of Sadoc, the high-priest prominent in the times of David and Solomon (1 Kings 1:8, 26, 32; 2:35; 1 Chronicles 29:22; cf. Ezekiel 40:46; 42:19; etc.). As a prominent political party they first appear in the reign of John Hyrcanus (135-105 B.C.).
During this period and down to the destruction of Jerusalem the Sadducees were naturally unpopular with the masses because of their marked tendency to side closely with the ruling power
Party representing the religious views, practises, and hopes of the kernel of the Jewish people in the time of the Second Temple and in opposition to the priestly Sadducees. They were accordingly scrupulous observers of the Law as interpreted by the Soferim, or Scribes, in accordance with tradition. No true estimate of the character of the Pharisees can be obtained from the New Testament writings, which take a polemical attitude toward them (see New Testament), nor from Josephus, who, writing for Roman readers and in view of the Messianic expectations of the Pharisees, represents the latter as a philosophical sect.
Among the virtues the Essenes cultivated especially obedience, truthfulness, continence, justice, and temperance; they paid great attention to the sick, respect to the aged, and showed marked kindness and hospitality to strangers. All men were regarded as equal, and slavery was regarded as contrary to nature. Those guilty of great crimes were punished by long exclusion or complete excommunication which, since they were not allowed to eat anything prepared by outsiders, entailed always great hardship and often death. Philosophy was rejected as useless and beyomd man's capacity, but ethics was studied with zeal.
Zealous defenders of the Law and of the national life of the Jewish people; name of a party opposing with relentless rigor any attempt to bring Judea under the dominion of idolatrous Rome, and especially of the aggressive and fanatical war party from the time of Herod until the fall of Jerusalem and Masada. The members of this party bore also the name Sicarii, from their custom of going about with daggers ("sicæ") hidden beneath their cloaks, with which they would stab any one found committing a sacrilegious act or anything provoking anti-Jewish feeling.
if jesus taught a strict adherence to mosaic law, how do we decide which parts of the gospel are correct and which parts are incorrect, considering jesus' lack of adherence to mosaic law?
if there are large parts of the gospels that have been fabricated, who could have fabricated them and why?
critically speaking, are these parts referenced in the other gospels or are they in non-synoptic gospels?
Matthew, Mark, and Luke present the basic story of Jesus in similar ways, including the order of the material, the stories told, the sayings of Jesus, even using many of the same words in parallel accounts. For this reason they are called the Synoptic Gospels. On the other hand, while the Gospel of John sometimes resembles the other three Gospels, it tells the story of Jesus in significantly different ways, including a different order of events, different perspectives and points of emphasis, and with its own unique vocabulary and style. Those differences can be understood in terms other than literary relationships between the Gospels, which is the reason John is not included in the Synoptic Problem.
are there texts in the DSS that mirror the teachings of jesus as we know them?
i've looked into these questions with a view to your thread, masqua, but i'm looking a wall and am hoping you might be able to point me in the right direction.
1- I am now, more than ever before, convinced of a historical Jesus.
2- That the Bible, even if flawed in some way by the manipulations of men like Paul and others, it is still the most important bit of literature in the western world, especially now that the DSS are available to the public. I wouldn't have said that just weeks ago.
3- I remain an agnostic, completely free of any of the dogma which is the baggage of organized religions. What I am doesn't change the importance of the messages that Jesus has for me personally. In fact, it makes my belief stronger, if anything.
Originally posted by masqua
Jesus only criticized the Pharisees for not being strict enough in following the letter of The Law of Moses (Matthew 5:19)
Are you speaking to the Synoptic 'problem" with John in particular?
in mark 7ish he argues with the pharisees over washing your hands as the elders did, and in 8 he tells the deciples to "beware the leaven of the pharisees" after they had asked for a sign.
in mathew he is even more critical, around 12 he tells them they are an evil and adulterous generation and in 15 accuses them of breaking the laws of god and then calls them blind and says they are planting plants that are not from god, in 16:12 we have clarification of 8 in mark, jesus tells them to beware the teaching of the pharisees. in 23 he is scathing in his critism of them.
from How Jesus Became Christian by By Barrie Wilson (Random House Canada ISBN 978-0-679-31493-6)
For all the antagonism expressed by Matthew toward the Pharisees, there still remained substantial common ground. Both groups agreed on the neccessity for keeping the law, and in this they were closer than Matthew would have been to Paul's Christ Movement. Matthew and the Pharisees parted company on how the law should be interpreted...
Matthew's assault on the Pharisees was itself inconsistent, if plain not hypocritical. The curses against the Pharisees were laced with anger, and these sentiments Matthew attributed to the historical Jesus. This was the same person who is portayed earlier in Matthews writing as having preached the higher righteousness, extending the commandment "do not murder" to include "do not give way to anger." Mathew - or Jesus - seems to have forgotten this injunction in his raging attack on the Pharisees.
i could go on like this but i think the above makes my point, almost every mention of the pharisees in the gospels involves jesus arguing or criticizing them, why would you say they were allied?
from The Other Bible by Willis Barnstone (Harper Collins ISBN 0-06-250030-9)
We may find three conflicting views of a single event. Thus, after Jesus Christ is crucified the Jews think him another man and go on seeking the messiah, the Christians proclaim the crucified Jesus both man and God, and the Gnostics take on the Docetic view that Jesus was only a simulacrum on the cross, for God is always God. In fact, in the Gnostic works The second Treatise of the great Seth and The Apocalypse of Peter, Jesus stands above the cross, laughing at the ignorance of his would-be executioners who think that man can kill God.
Originally posted by NGC2736
I take this as an educational opportunity, since I need to have a better basic understanding of the material to adequately do my job in these forums.
I am indebted to the reasoned approach taken here, and thank all who have so far contributed to this oasis of learning.