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Jesus needs saving, once again, from his followers. This time, however, it is not from those he preached to or from one of his most loyal supporters who, the Bible says, betrayed him.
It's the Christians who came later.
-snip-
Wilson, a religious studies professor at York University, says the discovery last century of lost gospels such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, which scholars are only now beginning to understand, have led to a flourish of books on the origins of Christianity.
"We now know more about early Christianity than we did even 15 years ago," Wilson says in an interview.
-snip-
A close reading of the story of Jesus – some drawing on lost gospels not included in modern Bibles – reveals that he was not trying to establish a new religion in his name, Wilson says, but to show his followers how to resist Roman domination and remain Jewish. That, Jesus taught, could only be done through strict adherence to the Torah, known to most Christians as the Old Testament, according to Wilson.
But such teachings contrast sharply with the message of Paul, who never met Jesus but claimed to have been visited by him in a mystical experience on the road to Damascus after Jesus's crucifixion.
Wilson says Paul told followers not to follow the Torah. He argued that salvation could only be achieved by accepting Jesus as the son of God.
www.thestar.com...
Shawn B.
So they think he changed words in the gospels?
Why would the Jews want to kill Jesus if he followed the torah strictly?
theBLESSINGofVISION
masqua, i agree entirely with you on this topic. the books of paul contradict jesus. this is a very important thread.
CyberTruth
I like the term you coined Paulianity.
I personally have always questioned the writings of Paul in the New Testament and their place in Christianity. There is no doubt that Paul and his writing have a very specific agenda and that is in the creation of The Church.
THe problem with this is of course is all of the problems that that manifested though the the creation of the Church which unfortunately evolved into an organization that suffered every possible form of corruption such as greed, power, control, etc.
I always felt that Jesus (from what I interpreted from the gospels) was very anti church. His message was one of Love and Forgiveness and I always felt that he wanted people to pray and develop a personal relationship with God on their own which was not dependent on a church or church leader. This is why I feel he railed on Judaism and upset the pharisees so much.
I disagree with the article in that he wanted people to be necessarily be a good Jew, I believe he wanted people to be "Good" period. And Religion itself should not get in the way of being a good person.
i see a few big problems with your theory. first of all the dead sea scrolls have very little to do with jesus or christianity. you'll have to explain to me how they enlighten us about the early christian church.
The Righteous Teacher
*Since the archaeological discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1946, the word "Essene" has made its way around the world--often raising a lot of questions. Many people were astonished to discover that, two thousand years ago, a brotherhood of holy men and women, living together in a community, carried within themselves all of the seeds of Christianity and of future western civilization. This brotherhood--more or less persecuted and ostracized--would bring forth people who would change the face of the world and the course of history. Indeed, almost all of the principal founders of what would later be called Christianity were Essenes--St. Ann, Joseph and Mary, John the Baptist, Jesus, John the Evangelist, etc.
Leaders with Unique Dimensions
"Jesus' group and the Essenes [Yahad] were shaped by the galvanizing force of one prophetic and charismatic person: specifically Jesus and the Righteous Teacher. Both of these reformers were committed to scripture, exhibited an obsessive love of God, and were unusually dedicated to his will, as they understood it, regardless of the opinions of other Jewish leaders. Both expressed their strong egos with a sense of pride toward others but with stunning humility in relation to God. Both demanded of their followers unswerving faith in their claim of special revelation, unique teachings, and leadership. Only Hillel seems comparable to these unique dimensions shared by Jesus and the Righteous Teacher, but he was not charismatic and prophetic as they were."
- James H. Charlesworth, "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Historical Jesus" in Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls (1992), p. 19
*Since the archaeological discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1946, the word "Essene" has made its way around the world--often raising a lot of questions. Many people were astonished to discover that, two thousand years ago, a brotherhood of holy men and women, living together in a community, carried within themselves all of the seeds of Christianity and of future western civilization. This brotherhood--more or less persecuted and ostracized--would bring forth people who would change the face of the world and the course of history. Indeed, almost all of the principal founders of what would later be called Christianity were Essenes--St. Ann, Joseph and Mary, John the Baptist, Jesus, John the Evangelist, etc.
*The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and our growing knowledge of the Essene community that produced them, gives us one of the most important pieces of evidence for the diversity of Jewish life and thought in the time of Jesus. Now, it has sometimes been suggested that Jesus, himself, or maybe even John the Baptist, were members of this group. And that can't be proven at all. But what the Essenes and the Qumran scrolls do show us is the kind of challenges that could be brought against some of the traditional lines of Jewish thought, and even the operation of the Temple itself. So if one of our perspectives is that there is this growing tension in Jerusalem, the Essenes are probably the best example of how radical that questioning of Temple life might become.
*There were anciently two branches of Essenes - the Ossaeans and the Nazorean. The southern Ossaeans were known as the B'nai-Zadok, or "Children of Zadok." The northern Nazorean were known as the B'nai-Amen, or "Children of God."
-snip-
It was into the ancient and mystical B'nai-Amen Temple of the Nazorean that Jesus was born; as it is written: "He shall be called a Nazorean!" (Matthew 2:23).
www.essene.com...
Paul's doctrine of Jesus is a daring departure from Judaism. Paul was advocating a doctrine that seemed to have far more in common with pagan myths than with Judaism: that Jesus was a divine-human person who had descended to Earth from the heavens and experienced death for the express purpose of saving mankind. The very fact that the Jews found this doctrine new and shocking shows that it plays no role in the Jewish scripture, at least not in any way easily discernible.
www.positiveatheism.org...
The motive force behind the Jewish Resistance was the Jewish religion. This is a difficult point for the modern reader to grasp because we are not used to thinking of religion as a political, activist, revolutionary force. Also, the picture of the Jewish religion given in the New Testament is that of a rigid Establishment clinging to the status quo.... There is no indication in the New Testament of any conflict between Jewish religion and Roman power. In fact, the whole issue of Roman power is played down to such an extent that there is hardly a hint of any opposition to Rome. The aim of the Gospels is to present the revolutionary issue of the day as between Jesus and the Jewish Establishment. The fact that there was a Roman Establishment against which revolutionary forces existed is veiled so that the Establishment against which Jesus rebelled can be represented as entirely Jewish.
www.positiveatheism.org...
secondly, the gospels, in both canonical and non-canonical texts, portray jesus set against the religious establishment time and again. even if he didn't intend a whole new religion he certainly didn't wish to encourage people towards traditional judaism.
thirdly, paul didn't have the last word as regards the teachings of jesus, he was contemporary to the apostles, he couldn't possibly have single handedly corrupted the teachings of christ to the extent you claim.
lastly, i have a piece of advice for you before you continue on your studies, read the gospels, then read them again, then look up the meaning of all the words you don't understand (not an insult, i didn't understand a lot of them), then read them again. then read every other early christian writing you can (heres a good site to start) and only then read stuff like "how jesus became christian", when you know for sure what the author is taking out and leaving in.
i'm not saying your wrong, i have a lot of sympathy for your view and i'm not a big fan of paul, but if you're to make a good point and not be mislead by half truths you should be sure of the basics.
Originally posted by pieman
(heres a good site to start)
Originally posted by jmdewey60
So far, no on has been able to prove any link between the Essenes and Jesus. Now, that would be real headlines, "Jesus proven to be Essene".
What took them so long was how to manufacture a diabolical plan to use these texts to help destroy christianity.
What has happened in christianity, since Jesus was around, that could be so significant as to make the life of Jesus un-important, or not the central point, to the religion ?"
Originally posted by masqua
It is not the historical Jesus Christ that is important to Christians, but that he died on the cross for their sins and rose from the dead. There's a difference. The teaching of Christ survive, both in the DDS and in the NT, but with a twist. One of them being that Jesus taught that Jews should turn away from the Torah.
Originally posted by chromatico
Originally posted by masqua
It is not the historical Jesus Christ that is important to Christians, but that he died on the cross for their sins and rose from the dead. There's a difference. The teaching of Christ survive, both in the DDS and in the NT, but with a twist. One of them being that Jesus taught that Jews should turn away from the Torah.
Uh, prove it?