Are Atheists Air Brushing History?, page 79

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reply posted on 8-6-2008 @ 07:53 PM by slackerwire

edit: deletion - wrong thread

[edit on 8-6-2008 by slackerwire]

reply posted on 8-6-2008 @ 08:02 PM by LDragonFire

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by weedwhacker

You are right that morality doesn't come from a book or from the traditions or opinions of men. It is written into your conscience by your creator. That's the only reason "everybody" knows it as you just said. Thanks for proving my point.

I don't agree with you on this point at all. Morality is learned, we are not born moral people. So you saying that it is from a creator is false. You are taught how to act in your family setting then you are taught how to act in your society.

reply posted on 8-6-2008 @ 08:20 PM by Bigwhammy

reply to post by LDragonFire

Sure you learn from others. but the Moral Law exists outside of you. It is bigger than the opinions of men. There is absolute truth. We don't always get it right but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I recently produced a video on this...

The Moral Law

YouTube Link

[edit on 6/8/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply posted on 8-6-2008 @ 10:16 PM by Gigatronix

reply to post by Bigwhammy

Watched your video, not bad, music was probably the best part for me hehe.

Here's my dilemma. If God could write laws into your brain, why not write an unquestioning faith in God law? That question aside, if God's power were so absolute, why not write the laws to be unbreakable? Why not design our species from the ground up to be perfect, and bless us with a perfect society and perfect world?

Let me guess, free will?

But isn't it kind of limited free will at best? You can do whatever you wnat, except these things I lay out. And disobedience results in eternity in hell. However the enforcement of these things is inconsistent, as the language to describe these rules is vague, and apply differently depending on what time period you live in.

I don;t know what version of God you subscribe to, but the popular version is all knowing and all powerful, and designed every single thing in all time and in all places. So my Atheistic tendencies is by His design? So I don;t really have free will then if he already determined that for me.

[edit on 8-6-2008 by Gigatronix]

reply posted on 8-6-2008 @ 10:24 PM by Gigatronix

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

It is atheists (secular humanists) that are airbrushing morality. .

Bzzzzt! Wrong! Well, sort of. Every person at some point in their lives airbrush morality. At some point, we've all done something questionable, and rationalized to ourselves to make it palatable enough to do it. Human nature. There are very few things you can say for certain about someone if you're basing your information on a label. In the case of an atheist, you can only say that they don't believe in god[s] with any certainty. Anything else is speculation on your part.

reply posted on 8-6-2008 @ 10:42 PM by weedwhacker

reply to post by LDragonFire

Dragon, you've been around here a while, with a lot of ATS points, so what say you to this?

The BW's argument that 'morality' is 'pre-designed' seems to fail miserably, as you pointed out, when culture is introduced into the equation.

(I point this out, only because my SN popped up in a 'response' post).

I am speaking specifically of the concept of 'honor killings' that persist, to this day, in the Muslim culture. There is no doubt, is there, that Islam is a religion? And muslims are, indeed, human beings, same DNA as the rest of us. Yet, their 'morality' isn't always the same as the 'morality' of certain other religious folk, say some who wish to follow Christ. Is this incorrect??

One other example comes to my mind....Polygamists. I believe followers of those practices consider themselves 'christians'??

Thanks

[edit on 6/8/0808 by weedwhacker]

reply posted on 9-6-2008 @ 07:34 AM by LDragonFire

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by LDragonFire

Dragon, you've been around here a while, with a lot of ATS points, so what say you to this?

The BW's argument that 'morality' is 'pre-designed' seems to fail miserably, as you pointed out, when culture is introduced into the equation.

I'm going to combine my reply to BW here as well. Morality being influence by God is just not fact anyone with kids knows this. A toddler is not a moral being, they are self centered, stingy and often violent by there very nature, they must be Taught to play well this others anyone with kids will back me up with this. Now if they are born moral and as they grow up what would be the use of having rules? Rules are guidelines you must follow for the society. Now if your religious does that automatically make you a moral person? uh No it doesn't religious schools have rules and guidelines the students must learn and follow in order for their to be order.

Really why would God give the ten commandments if he engineered us to be moral? There would be no need for him to lay out his law for us.

(I point this out, only because my SN popped up in a 'response' post).

I am speaking specifically of the concept of 'honor killings' that persist, to this day, in the Muslim culture. There is no doubt, is there, that Islam is a religion? And muslims are, indeed, human beings, same DNA as the rest of us. Yet, their 'morality' isn't always the same as the 'morality' of certain other religious folk, say some who wish to follow Christ. Is this incorrect??

One other example comes to my mind....Polygamists. I believe followers of those practices consider themselves 'christians'??

Thanks

Most consider Catholics Christians as well but look at there idolatry {Mary Worship}, seems to be in direct conflict with the ten commandments.

The thing I find interesting in all of this is in a atheist society all murder is immoral {other than abortion and mercy killings or suicide}. Now look at the differences in religious based cultures, even the old testament preached stoning people to death for their sins. Yet all of these religions preach they have the moral high ground. , but they all have preached murder in the name of their God, and we haven't even talked about the convert or die mentality both of these religions have shared throughout history.

I hope I have answered your questions, if not we got the rest of our lives to talk or discuss it.

[edit on 9-6-2008 by LDragonFire]

[edit on 9-6-2008 by LDragonFire]

[edit on 9-6-2008 by LDragonFire]

reply posted on 9-6-2008 @ 07:50 AM by LDragonFire

reply to post by Bigwhammy

I watched your video and it's interesting but there are points I have issues with. Many religious people claim that Stalin murdered so many because of his atheism, well I don't agree with you here. He murdered so many because of greed and his lust for power and to dominate and control his domain.

Would he have been different if he were religious? In my opinion that would have just given him a name in which to kill by.

The anger of so many toward the old church both in Europe and in Russia was do to there control along with the monarchy that ruled for so long.

Cause and effect and the same reason the authors of our Constitution kept "Religion" and I'm not saying God! out of it.

[edit on 9-6-2008 by LDragonFire]

reply posted on 11-6-2008 @ 04:50 PM by Bigwhammy

reply to post by LDragonFire

I watched your video and it's interesting but there are points I have issues with. Many religious people claim that Stalin murdered so many because of his atheism, well I don't agree with you here. He murdered so many because of greed and his lust for power and to dominate and control his domain.

This thread is a response to the tired atheist cliche' that more people have been killed in the "name of religion than anything else" and to Dawkins' movie title referring to faith as the "root of all evil". So to refute these claims I provide counter examples of people without Religious faith but secular faith (atheists) and the incontrovertible data that they have done more damage. Sure Stalin had personal and political motivations but so did the inquisitors in the Spanish Inquisition.

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 06:15 PM by SGTChas

Invited here by the Author of the thread, I am stunned... The thoughtful comments and retorts are dynamic and for the most part civil; amazing.

While I agree that to make generalizations about Atheist, or the Agnostic is wrong (many that I have met are more ethical than a lot of Bible thumpers); it is the generalizations made by them about Christians that are the most magnificent in their sweep and scope. Case in point: Blaming Christians for the Inquisition is like blaming the Pope for a fist fight at the Southern Baptist Convention. I was schooled by the Jesuit Order - and they would let you know REAL quick we were NOT Christian, we were Catholic and the Inquisition was to get all those terrible heretics; PRO TEST ANTS - read here whatever denomination you want.

It has been the Catholic Inquisition that has done most of the killing in the NAME OF MARY, NOT CHRIST (you should read the Popish Bulls) that the Christian Church is blamed for. And if the Inquisitor in charge of the still on going Inquisition (currently alive and well in South America) gets his way all Atheist and Agnostics will learn this FIRST hand, right after all those pesky protestants... Hitler was a GOOD CATHOLIC AND NOT CHRISTIAN!!!

The historical revisionist have done much to rewrite the history of the Inquisition, with the generous support of the Catholic Church; blaming all on the hapless protestants. However, one need only read Foxes Book of Martyrs to find the truth. (In case you haven't guessed, I'm now a heretic - all those beatings on the knuckles with a ruler really did get me to pay attention; also, ever try to be a Catholic in the South during the sixties and seventies?)

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 06:46 PM by SGTChas

Rules are guidelines you must follow for the society. Now if your religious does that automatically make you a moral person? uh No it doesn't religious schools have rules and guidelines the students must learn and follow in order for their to be order.

reply to post by LDragonFire

How so Dragon fire? All values, and thus guidelines, are relative to those who except no absolutes set down by a creator. All those who refuse absolutes dictated by a creator, have by logical inference no moral responsibility to society or any one; they are after all their own gods. Liberated from the constraints of “truth” and the moral absolutes of “right” and “wrong”, that “truth” coming from a creator might dictate, the atheist and agnostic are gods of their own universe with no accountability.

Really why would God give the ten commandments if he engineered us to be moral? There would be no need for him to lay out his law for us.

First, man was created perfect until he sinned - eaten out of house and home, if you will - the 10 Commandments were NOT to make man moral, they were to show that man NEEDED mercy & a savior because if you break ONE LAW you've broken them all. They were given to point man to the mercy and grace of God in Christ. David points this out in several places in the Psalms.

[edit on 6/14/2008 by SGTChas]

reply posted on 18-6-2008 @ 07:37 AM by Bigwhammy

The Fallacy of Special Pleading

Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.

en.wikipedia.org...

Atheists would have us believe that theists kill in the name of theism, but atheists who kill - do not kill in the name of atheism. Now surely this is an example of the fallacy of special pleading! For although it is true that some theists kill in the name of theism - some Christians kill in the name of Christ ; some Muslims kill in the name of Allah l, but isn't also true that some atheists kill in the name of atheism? Of course it is! There are many cases of atheists who have tortured and crucified Catholic priests in order to show them that there is no God. These atheists tortured in the name of atheism, whether they were Communists or Nazis.

Oh atheist horsemen of reason and logic - where is thy steed now? To say or imply that no atheist kills in the name of atheism is blatant special pleading. Pure Fallacy. It amounts to saying that atheism is by definition a belief-system (faith) that cannot be misused by anyone, and if anyone were to misuse use it that would show that he is not an atheist! LOL If a Communist crucifies a priest to prove to him the nonexistence of God, one cannot reasonably say that it was the Communism but not the atheism of the torturer that was responsible for the crime.

reply posted on 18-6-2008 @ 08:03 AM by Straight Razor

reply to post by Bigwhammy

Nonsense. More folks have been murder in the name of religion that anything else made by man on earth. Famine and disease have killed more so mankind's religions are a distant third.

reply posted on 18-6-2008 @ 09:18 AM by riley

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

I'm wondering.. what is the point of this pic you've posted? You've posted similar 'jokes' before.. it's not supporting any of your arguments at all and is clearly only meant to insult atheists. Perhaps you could consider.. out of respect for fellow members not posting atheist hate pics? just a thought..

[edit on 18-6-2008 by riley]

reply posted on 18-6-2008 @ 11:27 AM by Gigatronix

Really?

Broad inaccurate generalizations, the spear of the Pious. I guess the shield would be fear.

I agree this pic is offensive and serve no purpose other than to put Atheists on the defensive, effectively redirecting the scrutiny away from the Religious.

[edit on 18-6-2008 by Gigatronix]

reply posted on 18-6-2008 @ 05:51 PM by Excitable_Boy

reply posted on 19-6-2008 @ 07:49 AM by Bigwhammy

If I had a penny for every post here about religious people being "sheeple" or stupid or weak minded and how atheists base their blind faith in atheism on pure logic and reason -lol- I would be a rich man. So when atheists are caught engaging in a logical fallacy, turn about isn't fair play? Sure it is. Get over it. Yes that graphic was pure satire - and it was well deserved. Have some cheese and crackers.

reply posted on 19-6-2008 @ 10:19 AM by Gigatronix

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
If I had a penny for every post here about religious people being "sheeple" or stupid or weak minded and how atheists base their blind faith in atheism on pure logic and reason -lol- I would be a rich man. So when atheists are caught engaging in a logical fallacy, turn about isn't fair play? Sure it is. Get over it. Yes that graphic was pure satire - and it was well deserved. Have some cheese and crackers.

It's only turnabout when you direct it solely at someone who directed a simlar insult at you. I have not insulted you Whammy by posting such a pic, yet you are insulting me. That is not fair play. And you can't claim it to be satire while simultaneously asserting that it's true. It is not well deserved, I am an Atheist and I thnk you will find my logic is formidable. I have said this before and Ill say it again, don'tmake blanket generalizations or assumptions, it only hurts your argument and strengthens mine.

reply posted on 19-6-2008 @ 10:47 AM by Bigwhammy

reply to post by Gigatronix

I used to take it personally - but after studying the actual evidence - now I just laugh. I don't take all the bigoted anti Christian messages I read here as personal remarks anymore....I suggest you try the same.

reply posted on 19-6-2008 @ 01:13 PM by Gigatronix

reply to post by Bigwhammy

It's not so much that i take it personally, as it is I'm just tired of of the general atmosphere around here. I don't really get insulted or take things personally, I just try to be reasonable and encourage others to do the same.