Are Atheists Air Brushing History?

reply to post by undo


They also used to say there was never really a Sodom and Gremorah. The Ebla archives refer to all five Cities of the Plain from Genesis 14 (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim and Zoar), previously thought legendary. One tablet lists the Cities in the exact same sequence as Genesis 14.

The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep”) in Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from Nuzi and Mari.

source

the argument finally boiled down to the concept that God was not a proveable entity, so any text that supported a supernatural benig was considered unreliable, as a historical document.

It was here they had a problem. How would they determine the historical timeline without the bible and various other documents, such as the writings of Berossos, Manetho, Africanus and so on. they had a problem!

They decided to let ancient Egypt and Manetho tell the story. However, since the bible was considered historically inaccurate, anything that might suggest it was true, was ignored or thrown out, otherwise, they'd have an even bigger problem. They were the first to dig up most of ancient egypt and the first to translate the hieroglyphs and the first to elaborate on what the translations meant to us in common language.

ERASED....from history.

many of the pharaoh statues that depicted features that were characteristically african, had their noses blown off and were defaced. history was about to take on a whole new look in which white atheist males were the tippity top of the pyramid, and everybody else was below them. obviously, since the pharaoh statues that weren't defaced had more caucasian features, the pharaohs must've been europeans who ruled over vast empires filled with black slaves who built their pyramids.

and well you know what comes next.



[edit on 25-3-2008 by undo]

Originally posted by undo
If you cover it up, then you are airbrushing it, which is the point of the thread. He's an ID'er, that isn't even a religious man *blah blah*

You know where to take it.

And as for whammy - yes, whammy, I know Hitler might not have been a christian later in his life, I think I pointed that out, I used him in the theist category. So that wasn't really the point. You said earlier that teaching bible morals up to age 5 (or whatever) was essential. Hitler had that. Made no difference.

You even realised that what Hitler did and said, and what the bible said in places (not so much others, has some suitable anti-semitism) is rather different. Well done! Now apply that to darwin and communism which are totally different ideas and not even in the same ballpark (one science, one socio-economic, & polar opposites), and you might make some progress.

I'm basically out from under your bridge, whammy. There's little chance this can be discussed in any useful way.

[edit on 25-3-2008 by melatonin]

reply to post by melatonin


Ok see ya mel...

Oh what was the score again... ummmmm

Lennox 1 Dawkins 0

Dawkins pwned




Thank God for Lennox!!!

[edit on 3/25/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821), who was an atheist said:

"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
=======

That is, until they are no longer useful. This is a survival of the fittest scenario in the making. By now white christians are wayyyyy down that pyramid, unless they happen to have some paradigm that connects them to more agreeable circumstances, such as a version of christianity that has no scruples or intestinal fortitude, that'll cower in worship when necessary and go along with any plans of world domination. And black christians are barely above that. Currently, they and most christians, are being used for political purposes, but eventually, it appears these white atheists want to clean up the planet of people of faith, particularly abrahamic faiths, regardless of race. It'll make Hitler's cleansing look friendly by comparison.

Originally posted by riley
EDIT. Not interested in discussing this point further as I am sick of repeating myself.

Although I'm foaming at the mouth with excitement at the thought of using your exhaustion against you in order to win the last word for myself, I'm tired too. And I don't really care about this little side debate. The segment of the article Whammy posted was simply an illustration and nothing more. You kind of blew it out or proportion by reading more into it than was really there. Anyways. Moving along...



The main issues of 'Atheists rewriting history' does appear to be happening. The O.P. brought up one of the more interpretative rewrites but many other great points were brought into the thread. The historicity of Jesus, the history of Christianity, inflated numbers of Christian atrocities, the Christian history of America, etc. Yes, it does seem to be occurring. At least that is what is going on in our corner of the world and in the Western hemisphere. In the East, it seems to be more of a 'cover up and silence job' than a rewrite. It's irritating.

reply to post by undo

such as a version of christianity that has no scruples or intestinal fortitude,

Do you see any examples of this today? I believe I do... like the Joel Olsteen success and "feel good" sort of Christianity. You can have your best life now!! It's very self centered and pop culture.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


i try not to think of it in terms of living humans with names or religious titles. none of us know how we will act when our backs are up against the wall and our lives are in the balance till that time arrives. great testing is very tough. i just know that there will be those who claim christianity, that'll go along with it because it's a nominal belief, perhaps as a result of political expediency, and not a true conversion .

reply to post by AshleyD

The main issues of 'Atheists rewriting history' does appear to be happening. The O.P. brought up one of the more interpretative rewrites but many other great points were brought into the thread. The historicity of Jesus, the history of Christianity, inflated numbers of Christian atrocities, the Christian history of America, etc. Yes, it does seem to be occurring. At least that is what is going on in our corner of the world and in the Western hemisphere. In the East, it seems to be more of a 'cover up and silence job' than a rewrite. It's irritating.

And undo is also exposing how all of ancient history has been systematically down regulated to myth. What we are seeing today with Christianity is the attempt to include the Bible as well. Quite frankly as far as academia goes it's a done deal other than the few scholar heroes like Dr Lennox I posted above. One of the last bastions of reason left in a world gone mad with secularism and perversion of truth.

Ash do you see apostate churches as contributing to this? Preaching a watered down gospel - a prosperity message - feel good message. Where they don't mention sin and unpleasantness like that... are they part of the comspiracy?




[edit on 3/25/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Ash do you see apostate churches as contributing to this? Preaching a watered down gospel - a prosperity message - feel good message. Where they don't mention sin and unpleasantness like that... are they part of the comspiracy?

That is a good question. No, I do not consider this problem as part of the conspiracy mentioned in your O.P. If anything, it is a reactive shift. Christianity is being replaced with secularism. So how can they entice numbers to return to the faith? I'm glad you asked! Why, promise to fulfill all of their secular wishes of money, beauty, and big fancy houses because if you love Jesus He will want you to be rich and successful by the secular definition. That's how I see these two being related. The 'conspiracy' is to make secularism/naturalism mainstream and the church is feeding into it with the prosperity gospel.

What we are seeing today with Christianity is the attempt to include the Bible as well.

oh they did that a long time ago. whatdya think these people like acharya s. and the da vinci code are quoting from? it's a big, tangled up mess, most of which has been left as is, even after being found to be incorrect. did you know there are still people who refuse to believe troy was dug up? they are THAT convinced that ancient histories, epics, and so forth, are just fairy tales.

oh and you might find this particularly interesting, since some of these places and the texts that supported the ancient monuments existence, were considered falsehoods by the German Higher Critics (who were originally catholics who turned atheist on the incorrect belief that most of ancient history was a lie), modern day atheism likes to blame "christians" for trying to cover up the ancient history and religions of the other ancient cultures, citing that these were christian men.

it really is astounding how the passage of time can effect things, so much so, that you can only assume something much bigger with a much longer lifespan than ours, must be directing it.

reply to post by undo

Geologists investigate Trojan battlefield

Homer's description of the Trojan battlefield in his classic poem the Iliad is accurate, say scientists.

The subject of the story - the Greeks' 10-year siege of Troy and the wooden horse they used to bring it to an end - may have been a myth, but its geography was not.

he researchers drilled sediments in northwest Turkey to map how the coastline would have looked around the city more than 2,000 years ago when Homer constructed his epic account of the war.

When they compared their findings with his descriptions of the Trojan plain, they found a match.

BBC


What Homer was accurate? No way that's just a myth!!! And Jesus was just Horus. And it's all a fairytale about unicorns and we're smarter than you.:shk:

[edit on 3/25/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Gilgamesh tomb believed found. Archaeologists in Iraq believe they may have found the lost tomb of King Gilgamesh - the subject of the oldest "book" in history.
King Gilgamesh, commemorated in stone, kills a lion
Gilgamesh was believed to be two-thirds god, one-third human

The Epic Of Gilgamesh - written by a Middle Eastern scholar 2,500 years before the birth of Christ - commemorated the life of the ruler of the city of Uruk, from which Iraq gets its name.

Now, a German-led expedition has discovered what is thought to be the entire city of Uruk - including, where the Euphrates once flowed, the last resting place of its famous King.

"I don't want to say definitely it was the grave of King Gilgamesh, b

news.bbc.co.uk...

BTW, Luther was the one that inspired the criticism of the bible, initially, when he criticized the Epistle of James. So even the best of intentions can end up a huge mess. It's like a massive game of chess, spread out over thousands of years, the main players of which are probably beyond the comprehension of most of us.

[edit to fix source tag]

[edit on 3/25/2008 by Cuhail]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


I can't wait until I'm able to watch the entire debate but here are some issues I have just in that little minute and a half introductory segment:

1) Dawkins refers to creationists wanting to have creationism taught in schools as 'nutcases.' You can think we are completely wrong but 'nutcases' is simply demeaning and classless. Not really something you want to say in a professional debate unless your goal is to look like a condescending ass.

2) Dawkins states his last 'vestige of religious faith died' once he understood 'the Darwinian explanation for life.' Wasn't this mentioned a zillion times on my evolution thread in that the 'Darwinian explanation' does not include abiogenesis? Just speciation?

Lennox: Atheism is a faith.
Dawkins: It is not.
Lennox: Of course it is. Don't you believe it?

Classic.

You mean players like this....

One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

NIV

That should give us a clue there's a chess match going on....

Now on Luther... he did make the Bible available for the common man for the very first time. He had some serious issues. Especially as an anti semite. Ever see the movie about him? Made him look kind of nutty...

reply to post by AshleyD

Lennox: Atheism is a faith.
Dawkins: It is not.
Lennox: Of course it is. Don't you believe it?

Classic.

Dawkins turns all red and leans over too... pwned


[edit on 3/25/2008 by Bigwhammy]

I uncovered another Atheist attempt to rewrite history...

René Salm’s meticulous, exhaustive, 8-year-long research on the archaeology of the town now called Nazareth shows irrefutably that “Nazareth” was not inhabited at the time Jesus and his family are supposed to have been living there. This puts Jesus of Nazareth in the same league as the Wizard of Oz. Salm’s new AAP book, The Myth of Nazareth, will be released at the conference and is likely to be the biggest challenge to Christianity in centuries.

Atheist conference

Irrefutably :shk: The thing is this simply is not true. We have discovered the town grave yard for one. All sorts of pottery fragments and the like have been found supporting its existence.

Archaeological research has revealed a funerary and cult center at Kfar HaHoresh, about two miles (3 km) from Nazareth, dating back roughly 9000 years (to what is known as the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B era). The remains of some 65 individuals were found, buried under huge horizontal headstone structures, some of which consisted of up to 3 tons of locally-produced white plaster. Decorated human skulls uncovered there have led archaeologists to believe that Kfar HaHoresh was a major cult centre in that remote era.

wiki

Opinion from a critical Historian who is also a non believer.

In scholarship on the subject of history, there is very little in terms of antiquity that we can be completely certain on, so their chances aren't as bad as one would think. My problem is more that their arguments for the case they are making are simply juvenile. There are huge gaps of false information, other times they state a case that could just as easily hurt them as much as it may seem to help them (like the etymology of Nazareth). More importantly however, is the lack of respect for the genre of history, and the methodologies employed to determine the veracity of a claim--especially in relation to Salm and Zindler, and how they go about challenging authorities.

critical historian

It seems like Atheists are desperate to disprove Jesus. Why is this? Obviously their faith in the religion of Atheism is threatened.

David Rohl (interesting egyptologist)

A Test of Time
Rediscovering Ancient Israel
www.newchronology.org...

Several questions are raised concerning the accepted Egyptian timeline (you knew this would happen after reading what I wrote above, yes? Afterall, to assure there could be no question as to invalid nature of the biblical texts, they had to be sure the timeline of Egypt, bore no resemblance to it)

[edit on 25-3-2008 by undo]