Is This also Chinese Propaganda? EYE-WITNESSES of VIOLENT RIOT in Tibet

www.guardian.co.uk...

'Oh my God, someone has a gun ...'

* The Guardian,
* Saturday March 15 2008
* Article history

This is an eyewitness account of a foreign resident in Lhasa who took refuge in a hotel close to the centre of the Tibetan capital yesterday. The city was gripped by violence after protesters and police clashed

"Oh my God. Oh no. That's crazy. One hundred people are trying to stone one man. A man was trying to cross the street with his motorcycle - they were trying to stone him but it's so crowded I can't see whether they got him or not.

".

[edit on 19/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

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[edit on 3/21/08 by FredT]

Well, I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Are some Tibetans crossing the line in their protests? Probably. Do the Tibetans have a good reason to be angry. Answer probably also yes.

Well, as far as i can tell the only people who don't want the tibetans to be an independant state are...

Oh yeah! Everyone who isn't Tibetan!

WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO DECIDE A PEOPLE'S FUTURE?

After reading this article, my questions would be:

"Oh my God. Someone has a gun in front of me. There's a group of about 20 people - two of them have handguns. They are walking the street.They're shooting. They didn't have uniforms, but the way they were in a group I thought maybe they were police. They went down the street and the first one fired, that's for sure - I think the others did; there was so much noise I can't be sure. Then some of the citizens threw stones, but not at them - in the other direction. So I don't know if they were police or maybe Tibetans.

WHO were these gun fighters, who obviously was not being attacked by these rioters?????

"I saw three people assaulting a man - I was 50 metres away, but I think he was Chinese. They kicked him and then one man had a knife and used it. He was lying on the floor and the man put the knife in his back, like he wanted to see he was dead.

One rioter has a knife and used it??? I pray for the best of this Chinese man

"The residents are very angry. They are throwing stones at anyone who is Han [Chinese] or from other minorities like the Hui, who are Muslims. It seems like it's ethnic - like they want to kill anyone not Tibetan.

So are these ethnic targetted violence against innocent civilians still freedom fighters or terrorists? In my books terrorist.

Please add your opinions to one of the many existing threads on this subject.

Thread closed.

In order to allow more thorough discussion of multiple facets of this issue, this thread has been placed in a more topically appropriate forum and reopened. Enjoy!

I think that it would be instructive to hear a side of the story from another viewpoint. Too often in these type of threads, sides are taken, and opinions formed, based on whatever is heard first and reacted to by ones emotions.

And Heaven knows, I don't trust ANY one MSM source for unbiased coverage of anything. Most of us know that EVERYBODY in the business puts a "spin" on things they cover. But if we can hear all the versions of the truth, then maybe we all can understand what is happening in reality. That way, we deny ignorance.

I highly doubt that there is a black and white, right and wrong, answer to this. Life hasn't been that way in the six decades I've been here on Earth, and I doubt it's changed while I was sleeping.

So let's all learn something from each other here. (In a civil and respectful manner. )

PROPAGANDA!!!!

That is plain and simple, what a load of malarkey!

Oh let me buy a ticket right now to China and the Olympics, they will not hurt the white people or the tourists, just the Chinese! ARRRG , I'm going off line to throw up and take a bath, I might be back, but I just don't know.

Ive had it with this thought crime mentality for one day.

OP what is 'your' opinion?I am not angry with you just sick of the BS from China.

We are the fargin consumers that support their economy and when they will not listen to our wishes and respect our religious opinion, then to china with them!

I wish I could make this craziness stop, but I cant. I have done what I can, but it has NOT been squat.

We are the foreign consumers that support their economy and when they will not listen to our wishes and respect our religious opinion, then to china with them!

I wish I could make this craziness stop, but I cant. I have done what I can, but it has NOT been squat.

You make a good point Antar that maybe China will only get it if we use outr power as consumers to refuse to buy Chinese export goods ?

Undoubtedly Ichinisan there were deplorable acts against Chinese inhabitants. It's not right, but it's an inevitable consequence of the situation which China created in Tibet.

Can you tell me that Chinese never used violence to oppose Japanese invaders of their country in WW2 ?

WHO were these gun fighters, who obviously was not being attacked by these rioters?????

Two guns does not make an army. Tibetans aren't allowed to own guns so I would imagine they overpowered Chinese Police officers to obtain the guns and probably not before the original owners of those guns shot Tibetans.

And if local police shot at crowds then I have no doubt it enraged the crowd.

And I just can't understand why so many Americans are on these boards talking trash about how the Chinese aren't welcome in Tibet and therefore should leave.

Well hang on Ichinisan, if the Chinese are so welcome in Tibet then why were the Tibetans rioting ?

So are these ethnic targetted violence against innocent civilians still freedom fighters or terrorists? In my books terrorist.

In your books Ichinisan you see China as part of Tibet and don't recognise their right to sovereignty.

Tell me were the Chinese who fought Japanese invaders terrorists too ?

reply to post by NGC2736


My kudos to you for spending so much efforts in looking into the issue and eventually let this thread to be reopened!!!

Here is another link and article:
www.timesonline.co.uk...

Tourists speak of shock and fear at Tibet riots

Western tourists emerging from Tibet yesterday described their shock and fear as they watched a “howling” mob of Tibetans stoning and beating Chinese passers-by in two days of rioting in Lhasa last week.

They said that the crowd turned on anyone and anything that looked Chinese, knocking over motorcyclists, hitting them with metal rods and setting fire to their motorcycles.

Their testimony illustrated the ferocity of the riots, which have undermined not only China's claims to have brought peace and prosperity to Tibet but also the Dalai Lama's longstanding creed of non-violent resistance.

“It's hard to pick a side in what happened,” said John Kenwood, a 19-year-old backpacker from Canada who flew into Kathmandu, the Nepalese capital, yesterday after spending ten days in Lhasa.

(Check Full article with the link)

Originally posted by antar
PROPAGANDA!!!!

That is plain and simple, what a load of malarkey!

.....

OP what is 'your' opinion?I am not angry with you just sick of the BS from China.

Indeed propaganda, I just don't know from which side

I mean I would trust neutral Eye-Witnesses anytime, and what I start hearing now is that foreign eye-witnesses did not see the Chinese police opening fire at the rioters, instead the eye-witnesses accounts and interviews are upholding the official Chinese story.

I believe that we were dealing with a violent riot.

“I agree that the Tibetans have their own culture, but I can't agree with what people did. After a while, it was not about Tibetan freedom any more.”

Is it ever about the Tibetan freedom?

Yet another more extensive interview with a Foreign tourists:

www.abc.net.au...

Listen to the interview

Tourists recount Tibet unrest

Updated Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:54am AEDT

Listen:

* Windows MediaListen to the interview

Tourists who arrived in Kathmandu from Lhasa have told of their experiences of the rioting and crackdown which followed, they told consistent stories of Chinese and Muslim shops being ransacked, and some witnessed Chinese civilians being attacked by mobs.


Presenter: Liam Cochrane
Speakers: Claude Balsiger, Swiss tourist; James Kenwood, Canadian tourist; Martin Camps, German tourist. Interviewer: Liam Cochrane in Kathmandu

COCHRANE: Twice a week, a flight from Lhasa arrives in Kathmandu. With information about Tibet so scarce, the tourists on board offered some of the freshest and most detailed accounts of the violence in Lhasa. Twenty-five year Swiss tourist, Claude Balsiger, was in central Lasha when rioting broke out on Friday.

BALSIGER: Three army trucks� made them stop.

COCHRANE: There was also at least one case of a foreign tourist intervening in the mob violence.

BALSIGER: :There was one really courageous� because of the Canadian guy.

COCHRANE: John Kenwood is a 19-year-old Canadian. He was with one group of rioters on Friday and saw around five people being attacked.

KENWOOD: Well I saw one man who was probably killed� large piece of sidewalk. But I have to say� restraint for an angry mob.

COCHRANE: Did you hear gunshots?

KENWOOD: I did yeah� gunshots� tear gas... to disperse the crowd. [

(check link for the transcript and listen to the interview)





[edit on 20/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Undoubtedly Ichinisan there were deplorable acts against Chinese inhabitants. It's not right, but it's an inevitable consequence of the situation which China created in Tibet.

Can you tell me that Chinese never used violence to oppose Japanese invaders of their country in WW2 ?

I know where you are heading to, but this is why I do feel propaganda against the "Evil China" is way too wide-spread making people clouded. Are you now trying to justify that these dispicable violent rioters/killers have the right to kill and beat up Han Chinese and other minorities?

Two guns does not make an army. Tibetans aren't allowed to own guns so I would imagine they overpowered Chinese Police officers to obtain the guns and probably not before the original owners of those guns shot Tibetans.

And if local police shot at crowds then I have no doubt it enraged the crowd.

So you are starting to assume and imagining what had happened? Nobody in China is allowed to own guns, so is in Europe, or Iraq, but what you see are guns illegally being possesed and sometimes unfortunately used. You and I can never for 100% tell, it could be as well provided by "master-mind" behind the riots. You see that is also assuming, isn't it?

Well hang on Ichinisan, if the Chinese are so welcome in Tibet then why were the Tibetans rioting ?

There is a point, why is always a good, simple and transparant question to ask. But the answer can be so complex and complicated that there are libraries fulls of books tackling why. I'm quite sure we both have our viewpoints on this stand, I would say it is more economically driven than the so-called terrorists motives, oops, maybe I should be more subtle of using "freedom-fighters"?

But what about tourist who saw with their own eyes that the riots were NOT about freedom anymore. We are dealing with young unemployed frustrated people, who even their elderly try to get in to stop them. Maybe one should look into the economic situation of Lahsa before only starting to scream that all Tibetans want freedom.

In your books Ichinisan you see China as part of Tibet and don't recognise their right to sovereignty.

That is apparently not only in my books, even the Dalai Lama is not claiming indepency, they are claiming a greater deal of autonomy. But what, autonomy is already given, one should know their limits and not cross certain lines.

Tell me were the Chinese who fought Japanese invaders terrorists too ?

Ah, so bring up the Japanese invasion is a great point, wouldn't it??

Anyhow, if you like my answer to it, I will tell you a technical answer:
- No, because China was still at War with Japan, China did not capitulate yet and had still our territories from where we are operating.

Edit: Someone in another thread already pointed out what is terrorism and what freedom-fighting, if I have time I will look it up for you again. These rioters are proven by these independent witnesses as nothing but rioters to the point of terrorists.

[edit on 20/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

oops, maybe I should be more subtle of using "freedom-fighters"?

It would be better than lying and calling them terrorists.
Were Chinese who fought the Japanese terrorists ?

We are dealing with young unemployed frustrated people, who even their elderly try to get in to stop them. Maybe one should look into the economic situation of Lahsa before only starting to scream that all Tibetans want freedom.

So now the spin on truth begins. China feels the need to invent a new explanation for their motives… anything rather than admit they were protesting about lack of freedom ?

That is apparently not only in my books, even the Dalai Lama is not claiming indepency, they are claiming a greater deal of autonomy.

The Dalai Lama has never retracted the claim that Tibet was a sovereign country. He has offered a concession to encourage talks about restoration of Tibetan freedom.

Your books are full of bogus claims that because the Manchu invaded Tibet a few times like in 1720 that some how this makes Tibet Chinese ?

Your books tell you that in 1911 China declared Tibet part of it’s territory, but your books also fail to mention that in 1912 the Manchu army was driven out of Tibet and that China had no control of Tibet until Maoist forces invaded again in 1949.

Funny what your books don’t tell you ?

But what, autonomy is already given, one should know their limits and not cross certain lines.

Oh okay so autonomy is not the same as freedom ?
Autonomy is what the central government in Beijing says it is ?

Anyhow, if you like my answer to it, I will tell you a technical answer:
- No, because China was still at War with Japan, China did not capitulate yet and had still our territories from where we are operating.

Ah scuse me when did Tibet capitualate ?

So you’re saying that in Tibet, China is a big bully and can stay there as long as it likes because the Tibetans did not have an army to fight them off ?

You call Tibetans evil and yet you talk like that ?

So if the Americans did not come and help China regain it's freedom maybe you think it would be okay for Japan to still rule China ?

Should Japan be ruling China now then ?

Is that what you are saying ?

You are getting overly emotional and starting to only comment on thing making this discussion out of context.

Originally posted by sy.gunson

It would be better than lying and calling them terrorists.

To me and many others terrorist are cowards who are cowardly causing chaos and suffer among the common people, in this case it is now witnessed that the rioters were these kinds of cowards.

As for "terrorists"-labelling, it totally depends from which angle you look at it. Chinese people see terroristic acts in last week's violent riots, especially now eye-witnesses are confirming that these rioters are targetting at innocent Civilians, this only strengthen "our assumption".
DL and co call themselves freedom-fighters, but from the Fact that is witnessed by foreigners, it seems like they are also targetting at innocent civilians. So if you call this lying, well then maybe you should take a breath and think very clearly if these cowards did it good or wrong.

Were Chinese who fought the Japanese terrorists ?

Huh? You really lost me here. What's your point of continuously bringing up Japan in the play? The WW2 is already history, we should only learn from it, look forward and move on. It seems like you are only trying to argue and debate with bringing up useless controversial points trying to continue live in your dream that you are supporting a meaningful crusade against the "evil China".

So now the spin on truth begins. China feels the need to invent a new explanation for their motives… anything rather than admit they were protesting about lack of freedom ?

Spin the truths? Firstly this is one of the many analysis that can be conducted. And well, maybe you should look at the reality more objectively and start to think what these young rioters were really doing. Were they really rioting for more freedom which the Western Media and the DL clan try to (and seems succesfully) want the Western World to believe, or were they nothing but out-of-control mindless animal-howling frustrated young murderers who started blaming everyone and everything for their "misery", except for looking into the mirror first and ask why they are unemployed.

The Dalai Lama has never retracted the claim that Tibet was a sovereign country. He has offered a concession to encourage talks about restoration of Tibetan freedom.

It would become very pointless if you keep on argueing and twisting the facts to suit your anti-China crusade. The Dalai Lama IS only looking for greater autonomy, if you stubbornly do not believe this, and think I am spreading propaganda, be my guest then. There are fraction inside the DL clan which does not agree with "his holyness" and insist on having a total independence. And I would not be surprised that IF these parts of fraction fueled the rioters in the first place, but that is yet another conspiracy theory which we could look at. If we purely look at the fact --> DL only wants autonomy.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Tell me were the Chinese who fought Japanese invaders terrorists too ?

The situation between China and Japan and China and Tibet is so completely different it's like comparing apples to donuts.

Did China march into Tibet and massacre hundreds of thousands of people?

Did China rape Tibet's women and kill their children?

Did China conduct biological and chemical warfare tests on Tibet's people?

No, they didn't, but Japan did to China.

Oh, while your at it, check this out: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Another piece of the puzzle.

reply to post by IchiNiSan


It has never been about the Chinese people, it is about the freedoms and rights of a sovereign people and their oppression from the Chinese elitist that do not honor one of the oldest and most beautiful traditions of earths history.
They tear down the temples and destroy the statues , the art, the treasures. This was not their right to do so. These treasures are my treasures, your treasures the futures treasures. It goes beyond this incarnation, or future generations, or races colors or creeds, it speaks to the past present and future. This tradition is no longer Tibetan, it is yet another universal truth, it emanates light and that cannot be kept from anyone on the planet that choses to worship , respect, admire, or pray. And they know that nothing has ever been stopped by suppression and destruction. The people of the United States are not the ignorant cows that they see us as, yes many may be sheeple, but not all, not by a long shot. And they will see, when and if the Olympics happen, they will know. And one thing that the free world knows best are religious rights and freedoms. All I can do is to pray for light and understanding, compassion on the part of the Chinese authorities and prime ministers and military to change the course of the past actions and plan to move into higher states of operation.

I mean I would trust neutral Eye-Witnesses anytime, and what I start hearing now is that foreign eye-witnesses did not see the Chinese police opening fire at the rioters, instead the eye-witnesses accounts and interviews are upholding the official Chinese story.

I think this story has merit but I will say that eyewitness testimony is somewhat invalid. LINK

Do I think Tibet should be free... yes. This is a hard yes though considering they have China on one side of the coin and on the other they have the Dalai Lama which ruled Tibet with an iron fist. I make it a rule to exclude any of the Lama's arguments for "his free Tibet" on the basis that he is just trying to get the power he previously had back. On that note, I make it a general rule to exclude the drastic reports given to the Western Media and the antithesis reports given by the Chinese Media.

Well, I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Are some Tibetans crossing the line in their protests? Probably. Do the Tibetans have a good reason to be angry. Answer probably also yes.

I agree with this statement. IF I was in China's shoes I would be angry, but if I were in Tibet I would want to strive for independence. What I see as likely to happen is a similar outcome as the IRA ceasefire in the UK. The people of Tibet will stop protesting in exchange for more power in their state.

What is odd about this situation is that China and the US have similar, if not the same, interests. All producers require consumers, and all consumers require producers. And even though the interests are similar they stand themselves up against the other in protest. It is like a mock-fight. Nothing about it is real but people will get wound up anyway(Nationalism). China gives the US government a reason to take away more of our freedoms and vice versa.

I have been to China. It is a cool place, and it is not like the news portrays it. I know many Chinese studying over here that have grown to love America. They are vastly different(for good reason), but the biggest thing that separates us is only the Pacific Ocean.