Originally posted by pavil
Just an aside question. How often is the "stall and hover" feature of vector thrusting going to be useful in air to air engagements? Seems more or an airshow feature than a combat feature. I assume it will allow for tighter turns, quick changes of direction etc, but they always want to show videos of these kind of jets nose up in the air hovering. While that is impressive, I don't see the use of it.

You know, that's exactly what I was thinking. Now I'm no avionics expert, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I'm just not getting how these apparent low speed "tricks" and maneuverability are going to help avoid an incoming missile going Mach whatever. Anyone care to enlighten me on that aspect? Otherwise, give me the F22 and it's stealth attributes.

Originally posted by surfinguru
Otherwise, give me the F22 and it's stealth attributes.

I agree 100%.
Oh, and for the record, the F22 can also do the 'stall & hover' trick due to its positive thrust to weight ratio.

With 135 Raptors, the USAF could probably defeat China, Russia and anyone elses air forces combined....and that is not meant to be a joke.

If you read the stats of the F-22's against F-15's and F-16's in Red Flag and another exercise in Alaska, it is amazing. The Raptors simply do not get defeated. I am not saying this because I am a homer for the US. The 22 is an absolutely extraordinary plane. While there have been a few defeats in exercises, it was due to equipment failure or pilot error.

The Russian fighter can do flips...whoopdie dooo. The Raptor can shoot you out of the sky and you will never even know it was there. That is the scary part about it......stealthy, and the ability to attack from very long ranges.

I really wonder if we will actually see it dogfighting against an enemy force. Do any of you think that this will happen anytime in the near future? The only people I would think that would even attempt to would be Iran, Russia and China, but that seems very unlikely. Iran would just get obliterated, and I dont see us going to war with Russia or China.

I have to say that the airframe for the SU-30 is a refined SU-27 an airframe that is nearly 30 years old. And to address the source of this information bobandsylvia, are they the editors of Janes Defence Weekly or Aviation Week and Space Technology?

Didn't think so.

the latest model Flanker is not the Su-30, its the Su-35 and this model will shortly enter service with the Russian air force, although outwardly the same as previous raptors it is a major upgrade with a new wing, new engines and all new systems, still not stealthy though.

Maybe this is what the OP meant to refer to?

Originally posted by pavil

You know, that's exactly what I was thinking. Now I'm no avionics expert, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I'm just not getting how these apparent low speed "tricks" and maneuverability are going to help avoid an incoming missile going Mach whatever. Anyone care to enlighten me on that aspect? Otherwise, give me the F22 and it's stealth attributes.

Bingo there you nailed it on the head.
These kind of stunts (and thats what they are) arn't going to mean much.
In the real world it's shoot and scoot.
Someone earlier posted also a plane going from mach 1 to stall speed in a matter of seconds. What!
The pilots eyeballs would be on the windshield.

The No 30 Squadron "Rhinos" of the Indian Air Force is equipped with Su-30MK 1, Bort numbers in the range SB041, SB042.

The F-35 was supposed to replace the F-16 and A-10 in one platform. The F-22 is replacing SOME of the F-15s with some of the younger upgraded F-15s playing backstop to them.

As for a dedicated air to air platform, what do you think the F-15 is? It began life as a dedicated air to air platform, then was heavily modified into the F-15E which is the fighter-bomber version. It's also a very capable air to air platform. You always need some kind of dedicated air to air platform if for noting else than base defense/bomber intercept.

The problem with multimission aircraft is that they tend to fall into the "jack of all trades master of none" category too many times. You get a platform that does many things, but it doesn't do any of them WELL because it's doing too much.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by tomcat ha
It may be allround the best fighter in the world (F22 is just too expensive)

No it is not, produce it in large numbers and see if unit price does not drop under 100 million. These advanced Su-Whatever are going for 60 million a pop.

Also, this belongs in the Aircraft Forum.

If loads of SU's get produced the same happens aswell no?

However currently the price different is still quite huge.

Originally posted by tomcat ha
However currently the price different is still quite huge.

So is the difference in capability, if not more so, you get what you pay for.

As an f-15E mechanic(Weapons Loader), you can sleep at night knowing NOTHING comes close to that plane in performance and capability. So what if a plane can do somersaults, spin on a dime etc. Lot of good that does you when an AMRAAM or AIM-9X pegs your but from XXX-miles away. The radar package on that jet is phenominal. In fact NATO TLP missions are a joke as the E-model has to turn her radar off when playing to level the field.
The F-22 will be(future) a great jet but when you have to fire up the entire ramp to get 2 sorties....well lets just say it'll be awhile before the mighty Eagle takes a backseat to anything.

Yup. That's what I said before but in more words.