It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

what you should know about the 14th Dalai Lama

page: 9
6
<< 6  7  8    10  11  12 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 04:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by malcr
Given that China imposes restrictions on what is available to Chinese citizens on the internet how come this guy can post here?


Because its not blocked. You think everything you read is real?




posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 04:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by sy.gunson
In the west this is called sensationalist journalism or tabloid journalism


Tabloid journalism is gossip journalism. Celebrity, scandals etc. Penn & Teller is NOT Tabloid journalism




You tube gives a account of this from national geographic



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 04:33 AM
link   

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Nobody had their eyes plucked out.


Yeah right.


Imagine if the Americans did this to their slaves. If slavery wasn't bad enough.


The Tibetan serfs were something more than superstitious victims, blind to their own oppression. As we have seen, some ran away; others openly resisted, sometimes suffering dire consequences. In feudal Tibet, torture and mutilation--including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation--were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, and runaway or resistant serfs. Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: “When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion
www.michaelparenti.org...



I have two pictures of eye gouged victims. U2U me if you want to see them because I find the first picture haunting



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 04:40 AM
link   
reply to post by chinawhite
 


But there would be problem, when a chinese based poster would post anything against the official party line or starts to post critical information about china, wouldn't it ?
I mean, come on, with your mileage on ATS, you will have noticed, that U.S. citizens post a lot of government critical information here, but somehow even the slightest criticism on the chinese government is missing from chinese members. This could lead to conclude, that china is the perfect paradise for everyone, or that someone posting said info would be somehow in danger.
Third conclusion could be, that the chinese are so brainwashed, that they indeed believe anything, their media tells them.

You also may want to take a look at the victims of chinese torture from 2007 as shown here, difference is, that the actual tibetan leader, had nothing to do with what happened before his time, while the "Woman’s Breasts Disfigured and Infected from Severe Electric Shock Torture in Masanjia Labor Camp" is perpetraded by the actual chinese government. Falun Gong rings a bell ?

[edit on 20-3-2008 by Phil J. Fry]

[edit on 20-3-2008 by Phil J. Fry]



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 05:08 AM
link   
It seems this thread has turned into a cabbage throwing contest of East meets West. Fact is neither side is innocent of attrociatites perpetrated by its government (China and the US). Here are some things that I consider important considerations.
-As is common in history a small country (once Tibet) has been caught up in an international conflict.
-Part of what Crazyboy has offered as arguements against the present Dali Lama actually took place long before he had anytihing to do with it.
Not to mention the hippocritical fact that China's hands are bloodied far more than whatever Tibet is considered to be.
-Tibet and the Dali Lama are presented as terrorist and a puppet of the US...to what end,, you cant seriously think that what,, the Dali Lama is intent on over throwing the communist regimen? Thats laughable,,the US pays for accessiblity and friendship you bet it does,,,As if China doesnt to its bit of terrorsit activities against the US (and China's covert intent of world domination is far more creditable that Tibet's).
-What really makes me think,, is China's culture,,, just where was China culturally when Budahhism came to mainland China in the form of a Hindu Monk......There wasnt much culture they were prodomiantly tribal / freudal lords Budahhist brought culture to a warring country now you want to "cut off the hand" that brought your country it into the modern world. But assaulting an Ancient religious center that has remained (at least territorily) neutral since its inception but because ti has accepted finanical support from the US? And this makes Tibet a terrorist threat to the culture it gave birth to,,
Give Tibet back its automonity and the Lama will make intercession for your (China's transgressions) (gasps for breath of air)



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 06:20 AM
link   

Originally posted by silencee
people, crazyboy0 is saying truth.. do some research..


For someone who claims to be so knowledgable and who has done his research, I am wondering why you felt the need to twist the truth.

Both your quote from Chapman and the Serrano are taken very far out of context. Chapman was in Tibet during the 1940s, years and years before the current Dalai Lama ascended to his position. Second, yes the current Dalai Lama met and has known Miquel Serrano. And while Serrano is indeed a strange-little Nazi, he was also a Chilean ambassador for 20 years, including posts in India and to the UN. As odd as it may seem, Serrano was a very popular figure in his day.

But surely, being so knowledgable, you already know this. Right?

[edit on 20-3-2008 by SaviorComplex]



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 06:38 AM
link   

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
reply to post by chinawhite
 


But there would be problem, when a chinese based poster would post anything against the official party line or starts to post critical information about china, wouldn't it ?
I mean, come on, with your mileage on ATS, you will have noticed, that U.S. citizens post a lot of government critical information here, but somehow even the slightest criticism on the chinese government is missing from chinese members. This could lead to conclude, that china is the perfect paradise for everyone, or that someone posted said info would be somehow in danger.
Third conclusion could be, that the chinese are so brainwashed, that they indeed believe anything, their media tells them.


What slightest criticism is missing from chinese members? This is based on pre-judices or did you check every single post of chinese members?

I for one had posted numerous times that China is not perfect. We also face problems and a lot of challenges ahead on the road of developing our nation, which is far from being developed or the super-power it supposed is. However, criticism should not simply be yelled out, you should provide constructive criticism.

Mao Zedong comes to everyone's mind and is only associated with tyranny to the Western World. In China we had a huge discussion what his contributions actually were to China. Some were supporting him and others believed he made a lot of mistakes. I would support the latter group's opinions and believe the Cultural Revolution are black pages in Chinese Modern history, BUT he did contribute a lot to China in the days where China needed a strong hand to lead a nation, who were one of the victims to the Colonial period, and strongly needed to kick out all the foreign influences on Chinese policies. The Kuomintong clans were nothing but corrupted egos looking after their own benefits. Even now in Taiwan you see the legacy in corruption in the highest rings among to to-be-out-of-office ChenSuibing. I can't imagine what China would have become by now, most likely another puppet secondary state of the USA.

If corruption is widely spread in the current Taiwanese government, well unfortunately the Chinese government local and central is to a high-degree also exposed to a lot of corrupted officials, from the border customs to some higher level officials in important bodies, these are the bad apples which need to be trialed and put to justice. And slowly these people are being brought to justice, eventually corruption will come back to someone who is not clean. Every single day if you open a newspaper in China you see here and there trials of corrupted officials. One famous example is about a patriotic Tycoon from Hong Kong (who passed away
), in the 80s he wanted to invest in the Pearl River Delta. But faced troubles with corrupted local officials who wants to see money for these kinds of big sums, which were somewhat the usual practice. He however stubbornly refused to pay a penny and against everyone's advices reported it to the central authorities. These corrupted local officials were brought to justice and he could continue to help building and developing China in a healthy way. If all the business men in China now, local and foreign, could be more like him and refuse to use the shortcuts, then we would be much less corrupted. Unfortunately it seems it is human nature to take the easy route, especially for most of the business men who are looking to make quick money.

Why this tycoon dared to go to the central government for his complaints, because he know and saw a great leader in the person Deng Xiaoping. Deng took power right after the distratious years of the Cultural Revolution. After he stabilized his power he quickly introduced a series of reforms and started opening up China. With a "freeing our mind, seeking truth from facts, be united and look ahead."-philosophy he dstarted of the almost 30 years of succesful reforms. But he never could do it in 1 day, not in 1 year, or 10 20 years are also way too fast with a country over 1 billion people, even 50 years it is doubtful, thus 20 years from now, it is doubtful if all parts and pieces of China will enjoy a deserved developed country's life. So the student protest in 89 came way too soon, and students were not realistic in their minds for the long-term goals. The sub-sequent tragic events were unavoidable to maintain the stability which is the base to continue the opening up of China. Maybe it should be handled much more differently with less force like the Lahsa violent riot, but like we know npobody is perfect, not even Deng.

Deng did set out the long-term strategy, not only 10, or even 50 years, but a much longer strategy for China to strive again. Current leaders were pupils of and taught by Deng are more open than ever. Jiang Zemin was the first ever "highest leader" of China to transfer his powers in such a short period volunteerily to Hu JinTao to avoid being corrupted which is very often the negative effects of men in power and even more importantly to keep the leaderships fresh and clear. The current leaders Hu and Wen and their administration (except for the mentioned bad apples) do have the best interests of the total population in mind for the grand future, which was drafted by the architect imperfect Deng. Wen just mentioned "We have to free the minds of everyone, particurlarly of leaders, so that everyone can have independent thought, critical thinking and innovation capabilities. Only in this way can we constantly move our cause forward." The cause of creating a free prosperous society in China. And you know what, this is not even brainwashing or what, we do believe that the leaders mean it.


Edit: I could continue writing what some of the shortcomings and what we should improve. But I do believe that I have said everything needed to say, if you still believe that every single Chinese in ATS are mindless brainwashed Chinese agents, be my guess. I would only refer you to my earlier post in this thread then.









[edit on 20/3/08 by IchiNiSan]



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 06:43 AM
link   

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
With a "freeing our mind, seeking truth from facts, be united and look ahead."-philosophy he dstarted of the almost 30 years of succesful reforms.

[edit on 20/3/08 by IchiNiSan]


For someone attempting to discredit Buddhism in Tibet*, you do an awful good job of emphasizing one of it's key tenets.

I'll remind you that facts can be fabricated also.

And of course, once you're at the point of a free mind believing the facts that are shoved in front of it's ocular appendages, then really - all you are doing is believing what people tell you to believe.



*I admit that you might not be aware you're doing it, but you are.



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 06:50 AM
link   
reply to post by Throbber
 


Again, I will not continue argueing with you if you claim what you claim of thinking how a brainwashed Chinese is acting. Especially considered that we have much more news and information access than ownly state-controlled media. I see on a daily base the progresses of the opening up of China and am proud of of being able to help this nation strive again.

For me you are just another prejudiced mindless brainwashed foreigner who claim what they think is the best for the Chinese people.

Edit: What is buddhism, I myself is a buddhist. Discreditting DL? Hah, you got to be kidding me, look at my earlier post, seems like you are another frustrated mindless guy who need to hold on something meaningful in your life to defend on.

[edit on 20/3/08 by IchiNiSan]



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 07:27 AM
link   
reply to post by IchiNiSan
 


"seems like you are another frustrated mindless guy who need to hold on something meaningful in your life to defend on."

Admittly I cannot read, write or speak chinese so I'm not belittling you but I fail to see the point you are trying to make with this statement.

There appears to be a few mindless posts by those taking the pro-chinese, ant-Tibetan position. Just about everyone sounds a little frustrated. The last statement is unclear and can take many a turn,,,




posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 07:29 AM
link   
reply to post by IchiNiSan
 


I choose to defend what i choose, and sometimes it's based on nothing more than a whim.

I suppose you could just take as a wish from me for the Tibetan people to have peace the way they want it, that's all.



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 07:37 AM
link   
reply to post by Throbber
 


Peace is certainly what everyone wants, and that counts for China as well.

Wen is willing to open a peaceful dialogue with the Dalai Lama, question is here do the Tibetans want him to hold this dialogue with the Chinese central government? Or is the choice not really up to the DL anymore and actually on the hands of some evil minds behind the scenes? Now there is a consipracy theory people can bash on.



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 07:44 AM
link   
reply to post by IchiNiSan
 


*chews the bone*

It is extremily likely that there are elements of the Tibetan Resistance acting in their own interests, but the same goes for the Chinese Military.

I suppose the big question for the Tibetan people right now is who they want to be their leader, because it would seem apparent that the DL doesn't particularly want the job.

And if he doesn't want the job, then technically speaking he isn't the guy that Wen needs to talk to.



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 07:49 AM
link   
If Tibet under Chinese rule is so wonderful, why have 2.3 million Tibetans fled to India since 1959 ?

Michael Parenti went and regurgitated the writings of four very gullible pro communist writers given exceptional access to China and Tibet when the region was normally closed off. Those writers were paid towrite books much as Public Relations spin doctors are today.

These people were just regurgitating the Communist party's propaganda machine.

So Chinawhite you say that this blinding (if we accept it as true) was widespread practice ?

In their book "China's Third Revolution; Tensions in the Transmission" by Ian G Cook and Geoffrey Murray, at page 144 the Gelder's visit to Tibet is discussed in detail.

Cook and Murray noted that the Gelders attended festivals at Drepung Monastery near Lhasa and met approximately 30,000 Tibetans, yet of all those people could only cite one individual whom they claim was abused ?

Stuart Gelder was hardly an impartial writer. In 1946 he wrote a book called "The Chinese Communists," extolling the virtues of Communism in China before the Revolution which deposed Cheng Kai Shek.

Already, before he went to China he was a left wing Journalist for the "London News Chronicle" and a big fan of Communist China. He had first visited China from India in WW2 whilst flying the hump as a war correspondent.

Not saying that Stuart Gelder lied, but potentially he was quite gullable or one eyed on the subject with his guests eager to justify their invasion and subjugation of Tibet with wild stories ?

These people Stuart & Roma Gelder, were some of the first foreign visitors to Tibet since 1959 and invited to write about Tibet in 1961/1962

The tiny handful of people who claimed they were abused under the Dalai Lama's regime were confessed social misfits in the old Tibet who suddenly found that they could gain cudos with their new Chinese masters by denouncing neighbours and the old Tibetan ways.

Those who could put on a good act were elevated to positions with authority and rewards by the Chinese.

The Nazis did much the same thing in Vichy France where they actually recruited disaffected Frenchmen to denounce and police the French populace.

They were granted exclusive freedom to travel through Tibet when it was a closed territory to journalism, but could only find one man with such a story ?

And on the basis of that single potentially false claim you assert there was historically widespread human rights abuse through all of Tibet ?



Even if I accept this claim of theirs, there is no proof of widespread human rights abuse under the Dalai Lama.

The fact that the Dalai Lama's people love and adore him, even those in Tibet who never met him, tells the lie of claims by Stuart and Roma Gelder.





[edit on 20-3-2008 by sy.gunson]



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 07:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by HellHound63S
No one thinks for themselves around here.


No one but you, right?

Anyway, thats a rather sweeping statement given the variety of different opinions in this thread. Who are you to say our views are scewed by propaganda, and yours is not?



No one is listening to anyone, your all just useing this situation to advance your own personal agendas, and turnabout is fair play.


Everyone has an agenda, and everyone acts according to it. To think you are any different would be foolish.




You western communists have never really lived under true communisim


How do you know? This seems to be an assumption to me.


You are perfectly "FREE" to live in a local commune, with others who share you idealistic views, but instead you seek to subvert that very freedom, and advocate turning your governments communist, ending freedom in favor of entitlement programs.

You western "socialists" supporting the chinese propaganda, are actualy the most pitifull. Its been sold to you by communists in disguise as intellectuals. You couldn't really understand marxisim and claim to be democratic in anyway. True compasion for the poor is not welfair but freedom. How can you actualy think communism is better than poverty? Maybe if you'd tried both you'd know diffrent.


Nonsense, what most "Westenr communists and socialists" see wrong with Western Democracy, isnt democracy, its capitalism! The two do not necessarily go hand in hand, as there are plenty of examples in this world to day and in history of Capitalist Dictatorships. What most socialists argue is that the economic system should not be rigged in favor of the the few, but rather should support the many.

There are plenty to Socialist Democracies in this world. You might see them as mixed market economies, the Benelux countries and Canada come to mind. While having a strong social saftey net, they support free and fair trade within and without the nation.



And last but not least, you democratic westerners here supporting the dalai lama, you don't know the man either, books tell you nothing about his actual conduct, unless you know the man on a personal level, your words are just as empty.


We may not know the man, but his actions, good or bad, have been noticed internationally, so we can certainly examine those and make a judgement.

Would you argue the same for Idi Amin, Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam?


Make no mistake communism/socialism is simpley an athiest religion,


No, communism and socialism are economic systems.




The truth will set you free. Look what the truth could have done for those mammas jumping from cliffs in WW2. Unless you know this dalai lama personaly, you can't know the truth about him, good or bad. Please, on both sides- Don't go jumping from cliffs with your children in hand based on 2nd hand information.


Truth is based on perspective.



The only real freedom is choice, lets try to start making better choices for our selves and stop trying to make them for everyone else.


I agree with that.



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 08:27 AM
link   
Was this posted by the Chinese government? Funny how they want to use the INTERNET for their propaganda; but censor the video that might come out, of those territories; that are in revolt against them!
What exactly was the Chinese excuse for conquering Tibet? Pure expansionism?!
I guess we'll be seeing a fresh batch of skinned Chinese mummies,
on display!



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 08:43 AM
link   
WOW!

This is one gut-wrenching thread! (Please continue the debate!)

Since my last and only questions was not answered I can only assume that this thread is not really about the Dalai Lama, but about Tibet and China, with the DL as a lynch-pin argument.

Some imperialist long ago said "Western Press has always had an infatuation of sorts with these Holy men of the East." and despite the source that does seem true. We must acknowledge that, generally speaking, can not be certain of the information we are given on certain far off issues like Tibet. There can be no doubt that the 'free' press is increasingly not so. And I hate to burst your bubble, but Penn & Teller are NOT journalists, they are painfully blunt at times, but they are NOT always correct.

Also, Tibet has been free for millenia, the Eastern dynasties have ALWAYS lusted after her for reasons that are obvious. Claims of sovereignty were acknowledged, but not by the PRC. This struggle is rendered mostly by the religious leadership aspect. In the west we DO love eastern mystics and mysticism, at least that's what I see. BUT - we are talking about human beings here - and not all Human Beings are perfect and lead perfect lives - including the Dalai Lama.

It never surprises me when I hear of the shenanigans of leaders, but that persons faults does not negate that an entire culture seems unwilling to accept rule by a political state - how do you reconcile that?

By the way - the CIA has tried to get its hands in everything (hence all the problems the US faces abroad). I mean EVERYTHING, from Boy's Life magazine to Al Qaida, the mafia, you name it. It doesn't mean much unless the recipient uses that 'patronage' for evil purposes (and they often have).



[edit on 20-3-2008 by Maxmars]



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 08:47 AM
link   
LOL seems like everyone is just spouting what they belive and not open for a real talk sad..I mentioned that i have read the links by silencee and now further in someone claims that it has been taken out of contex and
that is not how it went down. So I will admit that It could be fraud and fabrication but he still have some strange associates IMO. I don't know him and as I said, many of the things we are debating is based on what others have written so why is your truths any better? I for one like the views Ichinisan is presenting be it Bs or truth.. Now If US is backing him up and praising him (as in the goverment) that should be up to disqussion.
Or it could be a trap to poisoning his name after all if they like him so much why are they them selves doing the exsact opposite ? And i would dare to suggest that western media isen't exactly open minded and free
or credible when it comes to truth or views. IMO to have and open mind demands of you to be objective and at least listen to what others have to say people! Many are saying the whole world is brainwashed and yet some of those realises this and start debating on a forum such as this.
to bring about change and understanding, but when a taboo thread like this emerges people are showing their true colors . I do not agree with China they are no better in this sence ...bush talks about peace and brings war.....Lama is meeting with war mongers...its seems like its a popularity contest to get the world on there side be it china US or other rulers the ones who strive for power and yet teaches that we should all share. IMO those who force others in to beliving what they say is right is realy wrong. As far as I know most relligions teach to live humble and respectful so why does the leaders or priests have to have a castle/temple and be holy? Now i don't know how it is in Tibet but can or could the puplic come by and say hello in the temple or is that considered forbidden? and only the servants are allowed? how about the shaolin monks don't they share everything or used to? All that crap about we should all join behind one guy president, king, lama. Iam for the people of Tibet to be free and if they really want a potential power abuser if what have been posted is true to lead them its their choice their funural....if he is holy god king everything is just perfect... on another note why is it so important for china to own a snowey mountain region in the first place completely cut off from the rest ? let them have their mountains let them chose there leader if they want to live in tents doing farming and independent of technology let them ... If they realy want the lama let them, if they get screwed they might do something about it like leave .....no one should own anything, all should see everything, travel where they want no restrictions and if the lama should or do disagree with that well then he is not so great after all. If he takes in starving citizens in his homeland and give them temple shelter when things are bad then he is great but if he let's them in their poor condition to fend for them selves well then he is just like every other leader garbage! but that said I don't know its all for the sake of debating the views, oh and he hasen't condemed the iraq afghanistan wars. In some of the links by silencee there was a claiming that in 2227 i think, there would be a great war between buhddism and islam all other relligions would perish! if that is true then Islam should be the evil force but from what I have heard from some muslims there true relligion is just as acceptebel as the buddist its the leaders who corrupt the foundation of the belive system. Now if the Lama and the old scriptures belive that a war later is comming, then it is understanderble that he does not condem the fighting and killing, but if he is so wise why can't he see that it is just people and try to build a bridge ? CONTINUES



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 08:49 AM
link   
But if the scriptures have been translated wrong and its all propaganda to soil his name why dosen't he condem it? IMO killing is killing and he is supposed to be against it right ....



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 09:54 AM
link   

Originally posted by lee anoma
I couldn't have said it better (or apparently shorter) but this is the facts people. This is why I feel for the people of Tibet and those arguing for who should have control over them. Going by history I don't think the lamas will do anything good for the people other than have them be servants again but also the boot of China is an oppressive one despite the advantages they have brought to Tibet. More advantages than the Lama serfdom.

Either way the people of Tibet are going to be screwed.

Pay attention and wake up.

- Lee


I'd support Tibetan freedom... I'm one of those crazy guys who thinks every breakaway province deserves a chance. But I can't imagine the people of Tibet really want to put the lamas back in charge... especially since, in the modern day, that practically means selling Tibet to India, since all those millionare Buddhist ex-rulers happen to live in nice posh homes in India...



new topics

top topics



 
6
<< 6  7  8    10  11  12 >>

log in

join