what you should know about the 14th Dalai Lama

If it hasn't already been mentioned, you guys should watch Penn & Teller's Bull#: Dalai Lama episode.

It was pretty good and a good argument showing that despite what Richard Gere would have us believe, the return of Tibet's ruling priesthood wouldn't be all roses and hymns...

are you kidding me!?! rubbish.

Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 20-3-2008 by GAOTU789]

reply to post by Blaine91555


To be quite frank, why the heck should the Tibetans get any kind of special treatment in this scenario? Let’s choose to ignore the fact that a "free" Tibet can and will never happen (no way in hell will china ever give up their rightful claim to this region, unless forced to) .. what makes the Tibetans struggle for freedom and independence so different ?

If you literally are one of those people who supports Tibetan independence, you must also support .. Let’s say; making Pays Basque in northern Spain/southern France a reality? how about giving the French Quebec independence? .. Or.. Let’s just hand the USA over to the original inhabitants.. Whatever is left of them after the genocide, disease, alcohol and ill earned casino profits... ? And what about the African Americans? They were forced to come to the new world, now it must be our duty to give them their own land and the opportunity to travel back to Africa if they so wish? ... Oh.. What’s that now? We did? O.o oooh Liberia! What a great success that turned out to be.... -.-

You can't give with one hand without taking with another..

Double post -, sorry, new to this forum

[edit on 19-3-2008 by Valdemar]

reply to post by Valdemar


I think that the Tibetans have plenty of reasons to wish for independance (being under the power of China unwillingly, for one), and of course - if we wanted to help all we'd have to do is support the existing protests, or make some of our own.

I for one would quite like to see Tibet wrestled from the grasping mitts of the Chinese elite, as i feel it may drive them to put on an extra good show for the Olympics.

Brainwashed parrot ... hey I like that.

I post here a potted history of Tibet which I also posted on another thread. Essentially the Manchus invaded Tibet in 1910. In 1911 China had a revolution which overthrew the Manchu and SunYat Sen declared unilaterally that Tibet was part of China. The Tibetans were not consulted. The Manchu army in Tibet themselve revolted against Chinese rule and were driven out in 1912.

Tibet is not CChinese and they have no right being there in the first place. It is irrelevant that the local Tibetan population rose up in protest and that the protest was ugly... It was their country and it is their right to protest against a foreign invader.

I checked the views of my local Chinese embassy about Tibet in their website.

The Chinese government claims that Tibet was declared as a province of China in 1911 when Sun Yat Sen overthrew the Manchu rulers and declared the modern republic. The Tibetans themselves however were no party to nor signatories to that declaration and no representative of the Government in Lhasa was present.

The Embassy's website also refers to Tibet as an independent province under the Quing dynasty.

In 1642 the then Fifth Dalai Lama went to the throne of the Ming Emperor and demanded formal recognition of Tibet as a sovereign nation and that recognition was granted.

Manchus became involved when the Mongol Dzungars earlier invited by the Dalai Lama's Gelugspa sect invited Manchu assistance to rid Tibet of the political intrigues of Lhazang Khan.

The Dzungars became unpopular. The young sixth Dalai Lama was discovered in Eastern Tibet near the border with China. In 1720 the Manchus who were at war with the Dzungars sent the Dalai Lama with a Chinese army to drive the Dzungars from Lhasa. The Chinese left in 1723, but tried to impose a kind of regent and Chinese embassy known as the Ambon.

In 1727 the chinese tried to impose their own form of Government on Tibet.
The Resident Manchu Ambon assassinated the Tibetan regent after the death of the 6th Dalai Lama. The Ambon themselves were then killed in retaliation.

In 1749 the manchu chinese tried to re-invade Tibet and establish Chinese control but they were driven back by military force.

In 1751 there was a treaty agreed between the Nepalese Newari kings and the 7th Dalai Lama which made no reference to Chinese rule of Tibet and acknowledged the Dalai Lama as the ruler of Tibet.

There were two further invasions of Tibet by Chinese. The last in 1910 was a betrayal after diplomatic talks between the Dalai Lama and the Chinese Emperor at Beijing the year before.

During the revolution of 1911 Manchu troops rebelled against their Manchu leaders and the tibetans rallied to drive them back out of Tibet in 1912.

Thus until the Maoist invasion of 1949 there was no Chinese control over tiber and Tibet struck various treaties and agreements with other nations as a sovereign power.

reply to post by Throbber


Do you honestly think that any form of non-military action against China would make any difference at all? =/ it would be wonderful if we could solve the worlds issues through peaceful protests and civil trade embargoes. But take Taiwan as an example, although recognized as independent by most western countries, China will never do so. Taiwan is just another troublesome province in the eyes of the Chinese.

Take into consideration that Taiwan is highly developed, and has proven it can function as an independent nation. Tibet, if it ever gains independence, will be a third world country. Without the Chinese, Tibet will be just another failed nation-state... and to be honest, I’ve had enough of those... unless you argue for a complete reinstatement of the dalai lama, and a return to a medieval theocratic society.. that might work ^^ but is that really what we need? it worked just super for the afghans until the US invasion in 01.. (and before anyone tries to bash me for it, in my eyes, religion is religion.. makes no difference if you are a Christian a Muslim or a Buddhist, you are equally disqualified to lead a nation according to your superstitious beliefs)

Huh...

Here we've got some Chinese guy, sourcing China's state-run media railing on a Tibetan religious leader as China wages a military crackdown on Tibetan monks.

Go figure.

If you literally are one of those people who supports Tibetan independence, you must also support .. Let’s say; making Pays Basque in northern Spain/southern France a reality? how about giving the French Quebec independence?

The Basques have recourse to a democratic system and undoubtedly will get independence some day. Quebec will sort itself out in a democratic manner.

Point is these people are not held prisoner in theitr own country and subjugated at the barrel of a gun.

Invasion of China is not the only way that Tibet could get independence. This very situation and possibly the world's reaction at the Olympics may well bring pressure for change.

How many people never imagined the Soviet Union would collapse. Then one day some East Germans were allowed to leave on vacation for Austria and it started a flood which brought down the whole Soviet bloc.




[edit on 20-3-2008 by sy.gunson]

Seems everyone falls for some crap. It is true that the Dalai lama ordered barbaric execution in his homeland and insane torture that makes Rudolf Hess and himmler look tame. It is a caste system afterall with no regard to the current lives of the Ego. Links,...

width="425" height="355"> "http://www.youtube.com/v/h8FMNtTw24o&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355">

width="425" height="355"> "http://www.youtube.com/v/2I2bvs3uZ4c&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355">

Yes compassion is what he preaches.. however George Bush also preaches "peace" and I bet ou all fall for that.

Get over the "wise monk on a mountain" syndrome and see the real deal. CHina is still doing what it does, but If Tibet was"free" the Dalai lama would be still doing this crap . I think we all need to have our hate nuetered. EVen if against our will.. A plague like us need strict measures to endure safety of not only ourselves but other creatures and the Earth!

If it wasn't for the corrupt nature of our inner workings the "New World Order" would be something to look forward too rather than something to protest.


Sorry I dunno how to link, I am a lurker and all i can give as advice is to actually pick up a book and read.

[edit on 20-3-2008 by IamBoon]

Originally posted by crazyboy0

uhh snipped

Wow, did I log onto the weird internet this morning ?

This thread is entertaining for where the OP goes next, and that alone - he seems to hate the US and has it in for the Dalai, but somehow makes both arguments in the same sentence fail.

Crazy...

This place needs a vote down system where threads can disappear with enough downs..

I totally...

Most, whole-heartedly..

AGREE!

This place...man the time I waste...

See mods, no one-line post!

reply to post by Valdemar


I don't think it's just Tibet deserving a special treatment. I'm from the Netherlands and I think even the dutch Antilles should get their indepence back. I believe Scotland should be independent. I believe any country that has been taken by force should get their independence back. If not than why do we still have countries. Why not make a country of the world than. How would you feel when your country was invaded? Wouldn't you want it back?

Originally posted by zhangxi0183

Originally posted by Mdv2
reply to post by zhangxi0183

 

Chinese sources are no credible evidence. I would not be surprised if the bloke's hand has been cut off by the Chinese army.

Your media consists of propaganda and proganda only. Come with some credible sources. Only the source from the Washington Post is credible, and accepting money from the CIA doesnt make you a terrorist.

oh yeah. chinese source are no credible evidence, only source from white house is true, blah blah blah.. keep denying the truth you don't like. it's won't be a big surprise for me. i just feel really sorry for you. too bad for you can just only hear one side of the story. and even couldn't have the gut to face the truth.

i'm sorry to let you see the real world.

[edit on 19-3-2008 by zhangxi0183]

Not from White House, the CIA or any other Government Agencies, you idiot. In Democratic Societies there is a thing called Free Press. That means it has no association to the Government, thus the word “Free”. The mission of free Press, in any civilized society, which China obviously is not, is to keep the citizens of that society informed, not controlled like your Party likes, Chinese puppet. Free Press is a means to control how Government and every other institution with power behave themselves.

In a Democratic society the Government has to prove to the people, thru the free press, and opposing ideologies, that it is acting for the collective good of said society. There is a "thing", which obviously a person living in Chine would never have heard of, called Investigative Reporter. The mission of this person, who usually works for an independent news organization, an NGO or as a Free Lance, is to be skeptical of all organized institutions, be they governmental, religious or private, and investigate them. That was how Richard Nixon was made to resign, and that is what we call an Independent Source.

A Democracy is based on a well informed public opinion, thru Independent Sources, which are countless, objective and rely on a “small thing” called proof, and not what is being fed to them by “Comrade X”. This enables the people to decide what they think about the way their government is performing. After this process, unknown of in the PRC, the government is judged by the people in a "thing" we like to call free elections, another thing unknown in the PRC. Now in an election, which occurs every 4 or 5 years, depending on the country, all the contradictory opinions in a society come face to face and try to convince the people, from whom the sovereignty comes, that they are better then their opponents, deserve more votes and thus more power. This, again, is only possible because of the existence of free press. And this is precisely why no reference to any PRC sources is acceptable. The PRC people do not have sovereign rights, since they cannot exert free will; PRC dos not permit the existence of a Free Press, since otherwise it would have been overthrown decades ago; the PRC won’t even allow you to visit the sites you want on the www. Hell, you idiots can't even travel freely in your own country.

Of course I'm not including you, since you must be one of the "PARTY BOYS", but a normal slave unfortunate enough to live in the PRC can’t even travel to Tibet without a special pass, can't travel to Hong Kong without a pass, or to Macau or to Taipai, and so on. Of course only "Party Boys" can get permits to travel...

“See the real world” you moron, you can’t even cross the street without the consent of your Party, slave!!! So, do me a personal favor, all you PRC slaves, and just commit mass suicide and spare the world from your stinking presence. You can also start another "Cultural Revolution" and mass murder most of your citizens. As I see it, you are nothing more then oxygen wasters, sooner or later you will just destroy yourselves, like you have done so many times in the past.

Long Live TAIWAN, the real Republic of China.

Iamboon you quote from the Penn and Teller video trashing the Dalai Lama.
In the west this is called sensationalist journalism or tabloid journalism.

In tabloid journalism the object is not to get the facts correct. It is to sell newspapers or in their case TV shows. Generally with tabloid media the more outrageous the claim the more they sell.

Penn and Teller cited Parenti as their main source. Parenti said the Tibetan system was exploitative, but this does not gell with the facts.

In Indian Kashmir where ethnic Tibetans still live by the old social system people there (in Ladakh) are happy and do not choose to leave the system. It is actually a social system where everyone has a role and a place in society and willingly subscribe to the religious system.

It also still exists as a system of Government in Buhtan. The People of Bhutan are generally recognised as the happiest in the world.

The People of Bhutan are free to talk to the western media but they do not complain and prefer it.

Penn and Teller's distorted account of life in Tibet also alleges serfdom and inequality yet any family could place their children in a monastery. The dalai Lama was often re-incarnated in quite poor families so how can anyone claim as Penn and teller did that it was a system of privilege for a few ?

Penn and teller claim there was widespread torture, or people had their eyes plucked out. That's rubbish. there was a penal system just like there is in any society.

Tibet had a punishment system that put wooden collars on the necks of offenders so they could not feed themselves. the purpose of this punishment system was to force those offenders to beg for forgiveness and feeding from the community they transgressed against.

It's no more harsh than prison labour today. Offenders were not left to starve.

Nobody had their eyes plucked out. In Tibet, bodies were not buried. They were taken to open air grave yards where vultures would peck the body clean starting with the eyes. Communist Chinese twisted the facts and made false allegations about what was a burial practice.

At the very end of Penn and Teller's video they refer to payments by the CIA. These were in fact apparently innocuous philanthropic payments by an organisation called "American Society for a Free Asia"

It was not a payment from an agency which declared itself as the CIA. The money for the Dalai Lama $186,000 annually was spent not on attacks in Tibet... not on spying. It was spent on maintaining his Government in exile and diplomatic representation with the UN at Geneva and New York.

The money was used for quite innocuous purposes.

Om the other hand his brother was clearly involved with the CIA. His brother was a very political animal. Gyalo Thondup, the Dalai Lama's second-eldest brother, based in Darjeeling, established an intelligence gathering operation with the CIA in 1951 and helped recruit spies for training in Colorado.

I'd like to ask how many millions the Chinese spent on their violent, illegal invasion and occupation of Tibet ?

WOW, this hole thread is sad.

No one thinks for themselves around here.

No one is listening to anyone, your all just useing this situation to advance your own personal agendas, and turnabout is fair play.

You in china don't know the dalai lama, and your not interested in anything that doesn't fit your per-concieved view of him or his supporters. You who post here might enjoy all the welfair communisim provides you, but maybe others would prefer freedom to choose thier religion, how to live thier lives, and all the other things your government doesn't like. YOU are not your government, think for yourselves! If you lived in the west long you'd see that any thing the US government says, we Americans usualy assume just the opposite is true, untill we find out diffrently. Those of us who have tasted freedom, loose our taste for anything less, and government can't grant that wich is already yours, but they CAN try to take it.

You western communists have never really lived under true communisim and anyway, they wouldn't take you the way they didn't take oswald, the way the Brittish never accepted benadict arnold after the war. Not even tyrants like a traitor. Not traitors? You are perfectly "FREE" to live in a local commune, with others who share you idealistic views, but instead you seek to subvert that very freedom, and advocate turning your governments communist, ending freedom in favor of entitlement programs.

You western "socialists" supporting the chinese propaganda, are actualy the most pitifull. Its been sold to you by communists in disguise as intellectuals. You couldn't really understand marxisim and claim to be democratic in anyway. True compasion for the poor is not welfair but freedom. How can you actualy think communism is better than poverty? Maybe if you'd tried both you'd know diffrent.

And last but not least, you democratic westerners here supporting the dalai lama, you don't know the man either, books tell you nothing about his actual conduct, unless you know the man on a personal level, your words are just as empty. Besides even if your right, what good would it do to argue religion with a firm believer? Make no mistake communism/socialism is simpley an athiest religion, and its believers are 1000 times more dogmatic than any high preist. Obviously the most passionate arguements either for or against the situation are by those who's views are too deeply inbedded to be changed by mere words. I realize that nothing I say will reach them unless they want to be reached, does anyone here sound interested in the truth? No, but I might be wrong, so I write this anyway.

To put it in a tiny bit of perspective of how scewed a view propaganda can generante: In the gulf war 1 and even 2 many of the Iraqies surrendering to the coalition, carried signs saying "please don't eat my children", the very same reason Oakinawins were jumping off cliffs with thier children in hand, to save them from being eaten by the "baby-eating" Americans during WW2. How sad.

The truth will set you free. Look what the truth could have done for those mammas jumping from cliffs in WW2. Unless you know this dalai lama personaly, you can't know the truth about him, good or bad. Please, on both sides- Don't go jumping from cliffs with your children in hand based on 2nd hand information.

Look how we treat eachother even in words on a forum, is it any wonder UFOs won't talk to us directly? Is it any mystery why so many of us are lost and afraid and alone? Please do to others as you would have them do to you, if I was sitting in a big stinking pile of ignorance in my shorts and I couldn't smell it, I'd want someone to let me know, that's why I write this to all of you here. I know I also have a load of ignorance, but I can smell mine at least and I seek it out daily to wash it away.

The only real freedom is choice, lets try to start making better choices for our selves and stop trying to make them for everyone else.

Hit them where it hurts:

1-Never buy anything "Made In China", or "Made In PRC". You can buy products from ROC (Republic of China a.k.a. Taiwan), the true representatives of all free Chinese people.

2-Write to your Senator, or local council, demanding that no Public funds be spent on products "Made in China".

3-Write to your Senator, P.M. or President, demanding that PRC (Peoples Republic of China) be expelled from the World Trade Organization. Demand, also, that all PRC assets in your country be immediately frozen until truly free and democratic elections are held in the PRC.

4-Demand immediate support for Tibet in all International Forums.

5-Don't just think of Tibet, think of the millions of Chinese people whom, not being Party Members, are used by the PRC (a.k.a. communist elite) as slave labor.

6-Make "Free Tibet" and "Free China" posters and place them all around PRC embassies worldwide. Make shirts with the same sayings.

Just a few ways to make a difference.

The only real freedom is choice, lets try to start making better choices for our selves and stop trying to make them for everyone else.

You make a lot of valid points, however people (and nations) often don't choose to change until their position becomes untenable.

In that respect public condemnation has a role to play in making China's conduct untenable.

Leaping in after pages and Pages of debate and slagging off at everyone does not advance the issue much either and I'd rather have seen you participate on some of the points raised.

reply to post by HellHound63S


Grate Post.

I just disagree on one or two points you make. This, like any other forum should never be about truth, there is no such thing as The Truth, just different perspectives or certain facts, that never accomplish the purpose of giving one the whole spectrum of a determined equation. The only places you find The Truth is in dogmatic religions and ideologies, and we should run from The Truth as fast as we can.

As for your views on commies/socialists, couldn't agree more, they are just anti-American idiots that wouldn’t recognize Marx or Engel if they hit them on the face with Das Capital. Throughout the USA, which most of these idiots don't even know, like you said, their are enumerable social experiences going on, like communes, the Amish community, communal sharing agricultural projects and so on. If you want to be a commie/socialist in America you just have to choose to be. Sell all your Capitalist junk and form a commune, or join an existing one. Of course they just want to be anti-American, go to a few concerts and smoke weed, hypocritical whiners.

Oh yeah, disagree with you on the UFO stuff....
Other then that, keep these great, and balanced posts coming.

Originally posted by mattifikation
Huh...

Here we've got some Chinese guy, sourcing China's state-run media railing on a Tibetan religious leader as China wages a military crackdown on Tibetan monks.

Go figure.

Quite! What is astonishing is that some people here on ATS can't see this.

One thing though. Given that China imposes restrictions on what is available to Chinese citizens on the internet how come this guy can post here? Sorry but I would not fall off my chair in suprise if we found out he WAS the chinese government.

There is no way in hell, given the nature of sites that are restricted, that this site is freely accessible to all chinese citizens. Go figure again!