what you should know about the 14th Dalai Lama

Originally posted by Throbber
reply to post by IchiNiSan

 

I suppose that would depend on the level of trust we're talking about - obviously those who trust others blindly lack maturity.

- Indeed, it is subject to the level of trust, but what I see here and many places else are the majority of the DL "trusters/followers" are blindly trusting movies like Seven Years in Tibet or reading only pro-DL books, while in the mean time disregardeing any single critic on his holiness as disinformation or propaganda.

As you may not have noticed, i do infact sincerely doubt that the majority of Chinese people have been brainwashed, HOWEVER - i do believe that certain Chinese citizens (in positions of power) have been.

Perhaps by convincing them that their actions are integral to the continuation of the Chinese state or something equally as emotionally driven.

Good that is what I did assume and noticed from most of the anti-China crusaders. However, I do tend to notice that Chinese members in ATS are being accused of being brainwashed by these to me brainwashed DL followers. Hey, what do you expect if right after these horrible riots INNOCENT civilians are being burned to death, and yet these anti-China crusaders keep on telling us that these rioters did not do anything wrong and that it is their good (human) rights to use loot, violence and kill? As you might have noticed most of of us (Chinese members) did not even bother to present Chinese eyewitnesses accounts on the table. I wept (first time in years) when the father of a burned shop told the camera that his daughter and 4 other innocent girls was burned alive by rioters. Any patriot if this is happening in your country would jump in and try to use their best English to try to inform at least some part of this community, a community that is obviously also dear to these Chinese members, to let them know the other side of the coin. However, instead of being listened to (maybe only a small handfuls) it seems like most of the non-Chinese will not or simply refuse to believe whatever is presented on table. And resort to lameness as low as picking on the English. Although I do agree that some of the supposed sources and evidence are also biased, but hey, are those sources so far-fetched from the actual facts? Wasn't this place supposed to be denying ignorance?

By the way, i think you may have misunderstood my meaning of moral indulgence, as in; Creating your own individual sense of morals that works in your favour.

My understanding of the term serves to explain why people who live their lives in a state of pure greed can get some sleep at night.

Some would refer to that as Ethics, but the difference is subtle.

The difference is subtle and I used a different meaning. Haha, well after all, English is my 3rd or even my 4th language (if I split up Chinese into Cantonese and Mandarin)

I still fail to understand why it is so nessecary to attack the Dalai Lama over the protests when in reality it would seem he has had very little involvement with the actions, what with him being exiled and all...

The attacks and violence were in the name of a free Tibet and in the name of Dalai Lama, either the guy wants it or not. This is reality. He is supposed to be the spiritual AND political leader of "his people". I myself had expressed that the Chinese government is willing to open and pick up a dialogue with the Dalai Lama again, BUT would it still matter is what I had asked if he has (really?)no power to control the people who are using his name to loot and kill? Nonetheless, trust on his words are low here in China, Asia and overseas Chinese. Or maybe trust is not low, but we tend to be much more reversed in what he is saying, some will even accuse him of hypocricy. So what would be the big deal in really looking in the "acts of grey and black behind the scenese"? Maybe the DL is more involved that he is telling the world, maybe he is the master-mind behind these riots? Or will this immediately be disregarded because it is the Chinese government who accused him of this at the first place? Would it have mattered if the German government pointed this out first?

Anyhow, if you read my very first post in this very thread, I was also quite sceptical by Crazyboy's claim, because I never really looked into what kind of person the DL in reality could be. Only for the past few days I came to the conclusion that this guy is for sure not as easy and certainly not as holy and pure as what the world would all of us to believe.

Originally posted by Throbber
I do infact recall passages in one of the DL's Books where he bids the reader not to trust him absolutely, and asks the reader to find out for themselves how it is best to follow buddhism.

It would seem he is trying to avoid the image of a spiritual leader altogether.

That's good to know.

I realise that this does infact make him all the more suspicious to a cynical mind, but from what i can see, what the man speaks is noteworthy to say the least.

suspicious, indeed, that is what I wanted to say too after the first part of your post. Then we come back to the question of how much you can trust and should trust a person. How far can we go before we are not realistic anymore and actually plainout paranoiid (Edit: for saying that someone is blindly trusting and following.).

I'll tell you what, if you can explain to me, specifically, what precisely is wrong with the people who are rioting and protesting in Tibet and why THEY should stop doing it, i'll believe in you and i'll trust that you are on the right track.

What is wrong and why they should stop? I will repeat myself of former posts in this thread or other threads again:

Thou who are protesting, rioting, looting and violently beating and killing of innocents in name of a supposedly non-violent-holy-man should stop anytime. One eyewitness record of a tourist said it all. "I agree that the Tibetans have their own culture, but I can't agree with what people did. After a while, it was not about Tibetan freedom any more.". We should look into other potential causes besides the cry for freedom. No, it wasn't about the freedom anymore, it was taking revenge for their economic situation in my opinion. Some of the old Tibetans were trying to stop these frustrated young men and saved Han Chinese lives. Frustrated young men who blamed everything and everyone else besides to look into the mirror why they are unemployed and lack behind in the fastly developing society. Out-of-control beasts beating and killing innocents do not deserve freedom, they deserve to be arrested and put behind bars for breaking the law.
The Dalai Lama says he does not want independency, he says he wants only a greater autonomy, Wen JiaBao is willing to talk to him peacefully. It does not help the cause though when these rioters keep on rioting using violence under the overly false presence that they want freedom.

Otherwise, all i see is rhetoric mumblings using the DL as a method of damning the political actions of those - in some cases fighting for their lives - on the ground in Tibet.

So was I mumbling?


[edit on 22/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

reply to post by IchiNiSan


IchiNiSan...Demonizing the Dalai Lama is a flawed tactic, he is only a symbol of the PRC's larger problem. What your government fights is the ideas and spiritual practices of a free mind. Mao described religion as poison, and so thus the crush of spiritualism and individuality began.

The world wants china out of Tibet, so your fight is now with the world.

Originally posted by Witness2008

The world wants china out of Tibet, so your fight is now with the world.

I don't see any governments doing that?. I only see a group of feeble minded PAID propagandist

reply to post by chinawhite


The world is not just made up of governments. Most people on this planet think for themselves, and from all that I am reading many world citizens are rejecting Chinas actions.

Chinas crack down on Tibet and the world press has brought a shinning light into all the dark corners where the PRC hides its sins.

reply to post by Witness2008


Well, people like you only proofed my points.

And I do want to add that I hardly take you serious anymore since you have besides the political and religious motives to continue the anit-China campaign also a economic motive to take out your competitors in China to increase your candle sales. I won't blame you, you are a business man, I don't expect much else.

Witness 2008 said:

Chinas crack down on Tibet and the world press has brought a shinning light into all the dark corners where the PRC hides its sins.

Yeah the Olympics are a blessing in disguise because they focus all the world's attention on what is rotten in China.

Ichinisan said:

Thou who are protesting, rioting, looting and violently beating and killing of innocents in name of a supposedly non-violent-holy-man should stop anytime. One eyewitness record of a tourist said it all. "I agree that the Tibetans have their own culture, but I can't agree with what people did.

I don't think any Westerners here support what the Tibetans did either, but we can't condemn them because we don't practice selective morality.

In the West we cannot entirely blame these Tibetan people given the long years of human rights abuses, tortures, famine and state murders imposed by China.

Nor can we Westerners when balancing the violence of China against the Tibetans with their rioting in March see it as any more than a natural out pouring or resentment of people denied their freedom.

You went on ichinisan to suggest the real reason behind the riots was dissatisfaction over economic hardship. So you admit then that Tibetans do not share in the prosperity of the Han in Tibet do you ?

China White said:

I don't see any governments doing that?. I only see a group of feeble minded PAID propagandist

You see only what you want to see. I'm not feeble. I have an IQ of 140 and every time I shoot you down in flames with facts, you can't answer them and change the topic or resort to abusive personal ridicule.

Nor am I paid. It would be a great job if I could get it. Sadly I have never seen such a job advertised anywhere.

Propagandists spread lies and falsehoods. I don't.

People who say Tibet has always been part of China are those who spread falsehoods and lies.

reply to post by IchiNiSan


IchiNiSan..my motives here are not religious, political or even based on candle sales. My motive is to stand up for other human beings that I believe to be oppressed and persecuted. By the way I am a business woman and my candle sales are doing just fine, they stand apart from those made in china..quality and all.

Originally posted by crazyboy0
[
So，it appears that many people abroad have been cheated by Dalai.
Many people like you actually know nothing about Dlai and Tibet.What you always clamor is just "freedom".Please don't be so babyish,or pretend to be babyish!Keep your head clear.

Thank you for posting Crazyboy0, since you seem to have a differing opinion and apparently substantial knowledge of His Holiness I would like you to provide links to back up all of your accusations.
Please keep in mind to follow the official Terms and Conditions of this board.
Name calling is not appropriate behavior. :"...don't be so babyish"
We do not assume. :".....pretend to be..."
We do not give each other orders here. :"Keep your head clear".
Your opinion is welcome, but rude and crude behavior is not.
Sources, please.
WIS

Originally posted by sy.gunson
I have an IQ of 140

I have a IQ of 1 million, I can cure cancer with a blink of a eye and make world peace. I just dont want to...

Making wonderful sounds on the internet mean nothing

and every time I shoot you down in flames with facts

You mean those ?

"Secret chinese documents"

"earthquakes in Tibet"


Yeah, still waiting

People who say Tibet has always been part of China are those who spread falsehoods and lies.

So his "Holiness" is a liar?

Accept Tibet as part of China: Dalai Lama
www.thehindu.com...

Originally posted by sy.gunson
You went on ichinisan to suggest the real reason behind the riots was dissatisfaction over economic hardship. So you admit then that Tibetans do not share in the prosperity of the Han in Tibet do you ?

People really should read more carefully what others are writing and look at the reality and facts.

1) There is NO properity in an underdeveloped region YET, that is what we are trying to achieve, to bring prosperity to every corner in China.

2) The region is being developed, in a developing state in a free-open-market approach like the rest of China, everyone has their chance in "becoming rich" (if we can say it so bluntly)

3) There are as many hard-working succesful Tibetan business men as hard-working "succesful" Hans business men, but also hard-working "succesful" Huis business men and some other minorities. No discrimination or favorism towards Hans, otherwise why would the Huis mainly running the meat businesses in Lahsa (just one of the many examples)? (Note: Succesful has to be said very loosely in an overly underdeveloped poor region. Even a small family shop owner can be labelled succesful compared to unemployed young men)
--> And only the Hans & Huis runned businesses were targeted.

4) To not take part of the "prosperity" (as you call it) is caused by many reasons which we don't know exactly but only can assume. Low education and not the same working mentality what is required to be "succesful" is what I have seen and experienced in that region. Low and even uneducated are the ones who can not find a proper job with "good" wages or even becomes unemployed. Good wage is maybe like USD 50-100 per month?
4b) Calling it 4b to elaborate the education system in China. Even in this poor nation, anyone has the opportunity to study and have a proper educations, it is affordable to the poorest families to send their kids to school. But like in Tibet, in the rest of China (and the world) you will not avoid and stop drop-outs at early ages, or who can not study that well.

5) I never said that the economic situation is the ONLY reason, because I sincerely belief that some evil minds had been preparing these riots for some time. The timing is too obvious. China just caught some terrorists who planned to sabotage the Olympics, and it seems like other terroristic organizations became impatient too or the special forces were too close to them so they have to launch the unrest earlier than planned.

6) Conclusions (my personal opinion): To me, these frustrated young rioters were merely puppets in the game of some terroristic organization sponsored by foreign chaos-making countries. They simply took advantage of the economic situations of these frustrated people who blamed everyone and everything else besides themselves. [Edit: and no this is not brainwashing, this is another consipiracy in this conspiracy loaded forum ]

The only way to stop violence and live peacefully in a country is to develop the economy in an open and free way wherein everyone has the chance to prosper. This is ongoing for a long time in Tibet, but terrorists are trying to sabotage this progress, it is unfortunately a huge setback, and only the civilians will suffer because of this.


[edit on 22/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

[edit on 22/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

reply to post by chinawhite


Does it seem that your wonderful sounds have gone very far on the internet?

What does go far is the knowledge that has been gained in this thread and more and more people in more and more forums as this who see the truth. Boycotts will send the message..the only one that matters. After several days here with little to no success in your arguments leaves me to question who the slow one is.

Originally posted by Witness2008
Does it seem that your wonderful sounds have gone very far on the internet?

The point of the internet forum is to post your opinion on the issue. It has nothing to do with winning people over. I don't post hoping people will see the light, I post because I feel strongly enough to give my opinion on the issue. Do you know what polarising is?.

On the other hand, you seem to be marketing your products on line and then linking us to propaganda websites on the outside.


Who is lieing to whom?

Originally posted by Witness2008

After several days here with little to no success in your arguments leaves me to question who the slow one is.

As a business woman you really keep on thinking in "winning". Jack Welch will be very proud of you. You really miss the essence of these forums.

reply to post by chinawhite


Posting an opinion and engaging in heavy debate are two very different things. You have done the later. You dodge the real questions we pose concerning human rights and the role that china plays in its systematic practice of oppression... and in the minds of a great deal of the world genocide. You did not see the video.

Promoting my product would require that I name my business. Have you read that anywhere on any thread?

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
You really miss the essence of these forums.

I think witness thinks this is some game with a winner or loser. People here are just trying to share opinions each other but are labeled as spies which is quite pathetic.

your quite right, his missing the "essence of these forums"

Originally posted by Witness2008
heavy debate

How is that different from giving your opinion?

You dodge the real questions

I've answered everything you asked me to answer. You aren't satisfied because I didn't agree with you. It has nothing to do with dodging any questions

Promoting my product would require that I name my business.

Promoting can have anything to with inciting people to buy American.

Its like a American car salesman saying, I sure would trust American products more obviously knowing that he has American cars

reply to post by chinawhite


Then let us share our opinions on the meat of this subject. The reasons that Tibetans are in fact rioting. The video would be a good beginning, it is one of the reasons we all believe china is lying to the world.

What Video?.

Do you mean the other thread?

BTW: How did you get all those ATS points

[edit on 22-3-2008 by chinawhite]

reply to post by chinawhite


Yes. The one where you gave a discription of drug smugglers.