what you should know about the 14th Dalai Lama

Originally posted by sy.gunson
All my Chinese friends are still angry at the Japanese over their WW2 invasion of China.

you think the French are still angry over German occupation?
what kind of hatred is it? it's insane

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Even if I accept this claim of theirs, there is no proof of widespread human rights abuse under the Dalai Lama.

Oh, what about slavery?

So effectively your answer to everything about Tibet Ikaruga is either that might is right, or that two wrongs make a right, is that correct ?

Really? I disagree. Here are some examples: the Native Americans, the Slaves, Branch Davidians, the Freemen, Gulf War Syndrome, use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, etc.

That's a pretty twisted response Ikaruga, but yeah okay let's look at these B/S claims

Native Americans

I am not an American so I can't speak for the parties, but if you're talking about Wounded Knee Ikaruga there is general concensus nowadays that this 1890 massacre of Sioux Indians who wanted to perform ceremonies for their dead in traditional burial grounds was unjust.

There was an armed occupation of the township in 1973 which led to a three month seige during which there was mutual exchange of gunfire and casualties in those exchanges. The situation was brought to an end peacefully by negotiation.

Contrast that with how China sent in troops and tanks in Tibet armed with live ammunition, or how Chinese Police are now going from door to door making arrests in Lhasa like the Gestapo did in Nazi occupied Germany.

Branch Davidians, Waco Texas

The Davidians were a religious sect with beliefs in the apocalypse, but whose leader was accused of abusive sexual relationships with under aged girls.

When authorities tried to enter the site there was a gun battle in which four officers were killed. This led to an armed siege. Again unlike Tibet the authorities tried to negotiate an end to the confrontation.

Tanks converted to spray tear gas into the buildings bashed a hole in one wall. The Davidians inside had rigged gas bottles around the inside of the buildings. It is still debated what sparked the fire but fire broke out.

To suggest that this siege which the authorities tried to end by negotiation was a massacre is again in your usual way Ikaruga twisting the truth just as you've twisted the truth about China in Tibet.

Slavery in America

Slavery in America ended with the Civil war from 1861 to 1863, 620,000 Americans died in that war to emancipate the slaves.

You say this justifies China's brutality in Tibet ?

Montana Freemen siege

Involve cheque fraud by the group and an armed seige to resist arrest. The authorities brought the situation to an end peacefully.

edition.cnn.com...

So the peaceful resolution of an armed confrontation proves what to justify the armed suppression of riots in Tibet ?

Gulf War Syndrome

Gulf War Syndrome is a medical condition of undetermined origin but possibly a side effect where troops were given medications to counter the effects of Nerve gas which the Iraqis were known to use.

And this proves what to justify the armed suppression of riots in Tibet ?

Agent Orange

Agent Orange was sprayed as a defoliant (weed killer) to deny cover to Communist forces in the sovereign nation of South Vietnam. It was not widely appreciated at the time that it might cause long term health defects and many American, Australian and New Zealand troops in Vietnam were sprayed too.

That was a war in which China supplied billions of dollars in weaponry to support a war in which it did not openly declare itself as a combatant. You suggest China's hands have no blood on them in Vietnam ?

And how do you claim Agent Orange justifies armed suppression of rioting in Tibet ?

Ikaruga's inability to answer my history of Tibet's sovereignty

So far Ikaruga I have countered all your B/S claims head on. You have always evaded responding to my claims and sought to start little brush fires to distract everybodies attention from the points I make.

You are incapable of answering my rebuttal that China has no lawful historical claim on Tibet.

China's only claim on Tibet is that it invaded and beat the tiny Tibetan army in 1949 and might is right.

China wants to be accepted as a modern free trading nation yet it still lives in the barbaric past.






[edit on 21-3-2008 by sy.gunson]

Scuse me ?
China White do you suggest China's enforced slavery of Tibetans is somehow justified by historic practices of a former medievil country ?

By that B/S justification we may aswell say okay go ahead and invade Bhutan too. Is that what you're saying ?

If that's right then ...umm let me see, should China also be allowed to invade poor underdeveloped countries in Africa just because they haven't got their Sh** together ?

Oh, what about slavery?

The Fudal system which operated in Tibet still exists in some remote valleys in India's Himalayan frontier. It also still exists in parts of Bhutan. You do not see the people there desperate and miserable.

What we're really talking about here is a fudal society in a harsh climate which over centuries found a stable method of social interaction.

At harvest time everyone was required to work in the fields for 3 months. The rest of the year the peasants were cared for by fudal masters from the communal granery.

Peasants owned their own land. It was less of a serfdom and more of a modern day hippie commune. You do not see members of communes complaining about slavery. Infact people join such communes in western societies quite voluntarily to get out of the slavery of a nine to five job.

China finds it convenient to use the label "slavery" which is entirely misleading about the nature of Tibetan society.

www.rangzen.com...

Conditions for Chinese peasants in the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s were not much different. The Tibetans certainly enjoyed the freedom of self expression in the old Tibet.

The fact that Tibetans both inside Tibet and in exile still clamour for the old days is self evident proof that things were not so harsh as the Chinese claim.

When the Chinese took over in 1959 they ordered Tibetans to stop growing Barley which was the only crop suited to high altitudes and the cold.

Tibetans were forced to grow wheat for consumption in China. 1.2 million Tibetans died through famine from the enforced agrarian practices imposed by the Chinese.

I can think of no worse form of slavery than hunger whilst working to feed the bread basket of a foreign invading power.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
China White do you suggest China's enforced slavery of Tibetans is somehow justified by historic practices of a former medievil country ?

Give me proof that ANY Tibetans in China are slaves.

You do know what slavery means dont you?

The Fudal system which operated in Tibet still exists in some remote valleys in India's Himalayan frontier. It also still exists in parts of Bhutan.

The proof is in the pudding

Peasants owned their own land.

If you mean ownership as in them able to grow their own crops or sell their land then no, they did not own that land. Owning land implies you have a right over that land. The Lamas owned that land and gave out plots for people to farm and live, it was the Lamas decision whether they could keep, grow, live on that particular piece of land or not. Thus, ownership is not theirs

The fact that Tibetans both inside Tibet and in exile still clamour for the old days

They clamor for religious independence not the system of government. BIG DIFFERENCE

Tibetans were forced to grow wheat for consumption in China. 1.2 million Tibetans

If 1.2 million Tibetans did die. Than we wouldn't have any Tibetans left

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Contrast that with how China sent in troops and tanks in Tibet armed with live ammunition

Your making a claim. The onus of proof is on you to provide evidence of "live ammunition" use

or how Chinese Police are now going from door to door making arrests in Lhasa

If Rioters burnt, murdered and destroyed property ANY police force would be making arrest. The Gestapo was "looking" for invisible enemies which didn't have riots or murder people. BIG DIFFERENCE

You suggest China's hands have no blood on them in Vietnam ?

The US was there for their own personal gain to stop communism. They propped up a dictator and used billions of dollars and killed millions of Vietnamese stopped them from uniting. The only blood China has is the blood of free Vietnamese fighting for the integrity of their country

You are incapable of answering my rebuttal that China has no lawful historical claim on Tibet.

Only the fact that the Dalai Lama acknowledges that TIBET IS PART OF CHINA.


The LEADER of the Tibetans says it himself

There has been ALOT of obvious smearing of the Dalai lately...

we have Chinese members on this forum expressing distinct anti-Tibetan sentiments... kind of stinks of disinformation and political agenda.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
There has been ALOT of obvious smearing of the Dalai lately...

It has nothing to do with the Dalai Lama but the system of government in Tibet and the Tibetan aristocracy who owned slaves.

we have Chinese members on this forum expressing distinct anti-Tibetan sentiments... kind of stinks of disinformation and political agenda.

So "his holiness" is the accepted naming convention only?.

We have members here who are just repeating what the Tibetans are, which makes me believe they are working for them or are paid agents of the US spreading disinformation before the Olympics

reply to post by chinawhite


I have a bit of information on the slave labor in china

ipsnews.net...

I am personally not speaking for the Dalai Lama (he does that just fine himself) and why would you assume that anyone here is working for anyone or anything other than ther own conscience.

What I don't see in any of your posts is any discontent with what chinas government is doing, even with all of the links that take you to the documentation of undeniable abuses. This and a couple of other threads that you visit are loaded with them.

Originally posted by Witness2008
I have a bit of information on the slave labor in china
ipsnews.net...

That is not government sanctioned and the people caught have been given prison sentences ranging for the death penalty to life in prison. The death penalty was necessary in this case because he showed no remorse for his actions in murdering his captive and then thought what he was doing wasn't bad.

If you blame the PRC government for that then blame the American government for every crime committed in the US which ranges from murder, rape all the way to pedophilia

What I don't see in any of your posts is any discontent with what chinas government is doing

And I should believe Tibetan activist who make obvious lies about statistics?

According them them.

1.2 million Tibetans killed in 1959
600,000 fled

which is about 1.8million people.

The Census in 1953 when the land reforms and rebellion didn't start numbered 1.2 million only which was agreed by the Tibetans which helped part-take in their first Census


How can 1.8million killed and missing fit into 1.2 million

reply to post by jbmitch


Hhahaha, you are soooo right, and maybe I did left it in the middle on purpose, who knows.

reply to post by chinawhite


It seems some others besides those in these threads are concerned over the slavery and labor practices in china.

en.epochtimes.com...




[edit on 21-3-2008 by Witness2008]

The destruction through deliberate, overt acts or deliberate, covert acts of a cultural identity, a people or their culture. "Cultural genocide" includes things such as "ethnic cleansing" or deliberate, forced re-education or mis-education. "Cultural genocide" includes the deliberate, methodical and slow creation of a foreign majority in occupied lands.

And where is proof this is happening?. The Australian government argued exactly the same thing when they introduced the white Australia policy

www.tibet.org...
www.tibet.net...

Many of the sources actually come from intercepted Chinese documents or radio messages, or investigations by the International Committee of Jurists based on a variety of sources including escaped Tibetan exiles. Not just Chinese Government sources.

Some source come from Chinese sources never intended for public distribution. In 1966 Tibetan Guerillas attack a PLA truck convoy and recovered papers from those trucks which were later published.

One was a handbook entitled Xizang xingshi he renwu jiaoyu de jiben, or (basic teaching materials on education about Tibet's situation and tasks) which claimed about the 1959 uprising:

87,000 enemy were exterminated

The International Committee of Jurists found that 69,517 of those deaths occurred in battles around Xining in the Tibetan province of Amdo. China does not even recognise this ethnic Tibetan province as part of the former Tibet and calls the province Qinghai.

China's own population statistics show a decline in Qinghai's population in 1959 from 477,994 to just 408,132 in 1963.

Chinese themselves provide figures that 5,600 Tibetans were killed in the Lhasa revolt alone in March 1959. (pro Chinese author -Strong 1956)

If Tibetan culture was so horrible and rife with slavery, how astounding then that so many were prepared to lay down their lives in defence of that culture which China dismisses as corrupt.

There were also famine deaths from crop failure. The Chinese demanded that Tibetans abandon planting Barley, Tibet's stable crop and instead plant Wheat to provide food for China.

Barley was ideally suited to Tibet's climate and it's short growing season. The wheat crops could not cope and kept failing. There are varying accounts depending on your definition of what constituted Tibet, from 343,000 to 413,151 Tibetan deaths. The higher figure includes the entire ethnic Tibetan region of Kham, Amdo and Tibet.

The International Committee of jurists has identified 156,758 executions of Tibetans up to 1979 and 174,138 Tibetan deaths in prison labour camps.

Is this the great benefit which China brought to Tibet.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
we have Chinese members on this forum expressing distinct anti-Tibetan sentiments...

I only want to correct this point.
no anti-tibetan sentiments in Chinese hearts, tibetans are our compatriots and also Chinese. and i have many tibetan classmates and neighbors.

i am mongolian. also chinese.

reply to post by sy.gunson


you should tell me what happened in 1950 then lets talk about the 1959 uprising.
in 1951, central goverment and tibet local government reached an agreement on the peaceful liberation of tibet. at that time, Dalai also agreed such arrangement and took the post of the head of the local people's conference. he cant deny this.

in 1959, land reform began in tibet, Dalai and other aristocrats and clerical officials felt they would lose the position of nobles and couldnt go on their exploitation of the serfs in tibet. so they rip off the agreement and create such rumor that Beijing want to house arrest Dalai then instigated the tibetans to start the uprising. it is kind of civil war. deaths must occurs, but that was not something of masscre. any war would lead deaths. and i will never buy the number you quoted especially those come from outside.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
There has been ALOT of obvious smearing of the Dalai lately...

Smearing? well there is definitely some biases in some of the accusations, but are the facts provided so far-fetched to show that the Dalai Lam is not as holy as the Western World & DL Clan want the people to believe he is?

we have Chinese members on this forum expressing distinct anti-Tibetan sentiments... kind of stinks of disinformation and political agenda.

anti-Tibetan sentiments? we only have anti-Terrorists sentiments. We don't hate fellow Chinese men, not in Fujian, not in Dongbei, and certainly not in Tibet.

as for disinfo, well who can say a source is always 100% reliable? but now the reality and shown in these Tibet/China threads are, are that ANY sources that mainly Chinese members are presenting, are IMMEDIATELY disregarded as propaganda & disinfo by most of the DL-followers/anti-China bashers. Well, who is the ignorant ones here? Or maybe agents?

Ps. Well at least one person in here I do believe he has not a political motive to bash China, and need to increase his candles sales

reply to post by wwssii


Here ya go wwssi, a pretty nuetral agency... The International Commission of Jurists, documenting the accounts and history of not only the seventeen point agreement but the crimes that were commited by China under Mao.

Enjoy!

www.tibet.com...

reply to post by Witness2008


hi objective witness.

dont buy everything they feed you. make you own observation.
truth only lies in the hearts of the chinese including tibetans. such truth is passed on generation by generation. i never quote any Chinese government's document since i know that must be a target you attack.

now ,answer me:
if the rioters are criminals.
if Dalai endorsed the agreement.

two question, yes or no. use your conscience to answer.

Originally posted by Witness2008
It seems some others besides those in these threads are concerned over the slavery and labor practices in china.

en.epochtimes.com...

The epochtimes?




The Falun Gong run website who ran other claims such as "6 million" Chinese communist members disown membership based on a easy member filled form. Apparently I renounced my membership even though I was never a member



It is hardly a objective source since they clearly have a bone to pick with the PRC

reply to post by wwssii


A business man can not use their consciences, after all, they are mostly after maximizing their profits and won't care with what road or methods they achieve their ultimate goal of becoming richer than Buffet or Gates, even if it means they have to spread propaganda and disinfo to take out their main competitors, who could produce with better quality for a cheaper price.

Wow, that is what I call a pretty pre-judiced statement.

[edit on 21/3/08 by IchiNiSan]