Encyclopedia: Social engineering is a concept in political science that refers to efforts to influence popular attitudes and social behavior on a large scale, whether by governments or private groups. In the political arena the counterpart of social engineering is political engineering.

Ive been working in the "new age business" since more than 10 years. And while I have come to be a "believer" in many of the most outrageous fringe topics out there, I have not bought into the idea of the year 2012 being significant in the sense of "the dawn of a new age" or in the sense of "armageddon and the end of the world". Why? Because the whole movement, literature and idea has all the trademarks of a socially engineered cult, and its proponents have all the trademarks of cultists. And because this supposed "new age teaching" actually contradicts and undermines actual new-age-teaching (new-age-teaching being a modern mix of spiritual/self-help/pop-psychology/human potential movement/esoteric studies, hermeticism). This post will probably not make me any friends here, since most of my fellow "new agers" have bought into the idea to some extent, but what the heck.

I´ll start out with a list of reasons to doubt the 2012 movement:

* The 2012 movement was weak before the year 2000. It only gained momentum after nothing spectacular happened in the year 2000. In fact, millions of kooks were running around and warning about the year 2000 or promising that new age in the year 2000. Wanna make a guess how many definite books about "year 2000 prophecies" are now in the trash recycler?


* The future is not fixed. The mere making of a prophecy about the future, can change the future. Even a mere superficial look at physics will reveal that time is not set in stone but a malleable, flexible thing.


* This also applies to the dates 1900, 1950, 1988 and many other "prophetic dates" in between.

* Most importantly: If you buy into the Mayan Calender (which ends in 2012, according to some interpretations), you have to ignore the Calendars and Prophecies of every other culture...what about the Jewish Calender (does it end 2038? I forget), the Islamic Calender, celtic calenders, aztec calenders, ancient greek calenders and a few hundred others. There is no reason to believe in one calender and dismiss all others

* Projecting happiness into the future ("2012 transition to a new age") or projecting fear into the future ("2012 the end of the world) are nothing more than distractions from living today. Cults have been using these dumb tactics since ages to get money out of people, to control their gullible minds, to sell products. I cant believe that the same technique can be used again and again and again and people keep falling for it.

* Original esoteric teachings concerning the "Kali Yuga" and "the coming age of the aquarius" do not teach that this transition will happen in a specific year but stretched out over a long time of several hundreds of years...very slowly. In case nobody has noticed, change has already been happening since the industrial revolution and continues to happen with the new information age we are currently in.

* Biblical "end-times" prophecy has been happening since a thousand years on a regular basis. As all the prophecy of end-of-days has turned out to be wrong (despite massive followings being drummed up to a frenzy of mass-hysteria), there is no reason to believe it will happen now. The boy has cried wolf so many times that its becoming ridiculous.

* The main reason for me not buying into the fad is because I have personally met some of these 2012 teachers/preachers...and they are among the most ignorant and seedy snake-oil-salesmen I ever met. "Dont miss out on 2012! Buy this special-energy-aftershave without which you wont make it!" Frankly, I feel that these people are giving the business a bad name.

What will happen in consequence? Here are some possible scenarios:

1. When 2012 comes around, millions of disillusioned and disappointed people will turn away from alternative lifestyles and philosophies (spilling baby with bathwater)

2. The hype will be used to stage a false-flag invasion by "space brothers" or some other conspiracy.

3. A "mistake" in the Calender will be discovered and a new date determined with which more delusional thinking can be whipped up with.

Its sad that people are so desperate for change that they will buy into anything...even desiring for the end-of-the-world to come already. But where does change really come from? This joke illustrates it:

Said the tourist to the buddhist ice-cream salesman whom he had given 5 Dollars for ice-cream: "Change please". The ice-cream-monk responded: "All change comes from within".

Are there indicators that the world is changing? Yes. Are there indicators of huge events lying ahead? Yes. But neither confirm the 2012 cult.

Is this loose movement which sells millions of books socially engineered, deliberately crafted and planned by a group of people, or is it a coincidence or fad? Do new social organisms pop up just like that or are they "implanted into society"? I believe the latter to be the case because something as stupid as this couldnt possibly gain such a wide acceptance without a massively huge budget spent. I´ll finish with a question:

Why couldnt the prophetic Mayas predict their own downfall?

I do believe that 2012 is something that has spun out of control. I think there are many bandwaggon people who are jumping on board and throwing in their own theories, diluting the water and adding to the insanity of the whole thing.

I do think that there some notable aspects of 2012 which certianly do make me wonder. Obviously the Mayan calendar is interesting. Although, deep down, it just seems like they had to stop somewhere and 2012 was just as good of a spot as any. The changing of the solar cycle on 2012 is also interesting. There are other things that coincide with the year 2012 that when all added up, make me wonder.

I will admit that it will be on my mind as we approach the year. Even more so as we approach the end of that year.

My gut feeling is obviously that nothing will happen. I also agree with you on the point that many will claim that what we think is 2012 is wrong and the real 2012 won't come for some other length of time. Your other point about how the fervor over 2012 has increased since 2000 is a little more complicated than you made it. I think it is more interesting to people simply because it is now the forseeable future. It is more to do with how close we are to it, at least that is my opinion.

Originally posted by Karlhungis
I do think that there some notable aspects of 2012 which certianly do make me wonder. Obviously the Mayan calendar is interesting. Although, deep down, it just seems like they had to stop somewhere and 2012 was just as good of a spot as any. The changing of the solar cycle on 2012 is also interesting. There are other things that coincide with the year 2012 that when all added up, make me wonder.

In secret and private Im even open for the possibility that the mayans were onto something. However, I see this entire industry that has hijacked the idea to sell end-times-perfume and also muddies the waters of the business I work in and Im inclined to to doubt all of it.

So what your saying is, I dont need this postive-vibe-energy-aftershave? Ahh man, I shouldnt have bought 6 cases of the stuff...

Next your going to tell me the Q-Ray bracelet is a sham!

Edit to add: In all seriousness, Im with you on this one. I think the whole 2012 movement is poor interpretation of a calender, mixed in the myth, and a hell of a lot of charisma. Im sure the 2012 survivial packs will come out soon.

[edit on 18-3-2008 by InSpiteOf]

For y2k, people wanted very badly for something to happen, so they created their own hysteria. Computers did not crash and nuclear power plants did not blow up, but the panic was there.

Something will happen in 2012 because people want something to happen in 2012. In the sense of a 2012 cult, it sounds plausible, but I don't think it would be on purpose. Iit would encompass all religions and ethnicities.

And maybe, just maybe, holographic projections from the us government.....

Its curious that you´d see hundreds of 2012-promoters on ATS everyday but none of them have shown up here yet. Come on cowards, confront me

Originally posted by MrPenny

That's not the best choice of words for a moderator is it?

No its not. Sue me

There are many theorists and just as many opinions that cannot be supported or debated here on ATS. If a reasonable voice, such as your own, speaks out....they tend to clam up; or start their own thread and count on the support of like minded individuals.

From where I stand not a day goes by without the word 2012 being mentioned somewhere along the thread-lines.

I will hereby re-tract my "cowards!" statement and instead say: If 2012-promoters can convince me that Im completely wrong, Im open for that.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
No its not. Sue me

Well....if you insist.

If 2012-promoters can convince me that Im completely wrong, Im open for that.

That might not be a fair challenge.....after all, the "proof" can only occur in 2012. Just playing devil's advocate.

I don't get the impression of "cult"....I don't see the social isolation often practiced by cults to indoctrinate members. The huge majority of them are independent and somewhat loosely connected by a single topic. I get the impression of a "clique", much like a high school has it's "jocks", "socials", "emos", etc.....good or bad, it helps them define themselves and creates a world view. I don't think that particular world view is correct myself....but it gives them something to talk about.

Are there entrepenuers taking advantage of the fervor? Sure, always has been, always will be.....fundamentalist preachers have been taking advantage with "end times" sermons for years. This is just the same wolf wearing a different color sheepskin.

Originally posted by MrPenny


I don't get the impression of "cult"....I don't see the social isolation often practiced by cults to indoctrinate members. The huge majority of them are independent and somewhat loosely connected by a single topic. I get the impression of a "clique", much like a high school has it's "jocks", "socials", "emos", etc.....good or bad, it helps them define themselves and creates a world view. I don't think that particular world view is correct myself....but it gives them something to talk about.

The wording "cult" may actually be too strong admittedly.
To be nice we can say its nothing more than a belief-system people are considering and toying around with.

The threads purpose is already fullfilled by stating a counter-argument to the overload of 2012-warning-threads.

Afterall...a lot of people invest their time, work and hearts with something that may possibly not come to pass.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Its curious that you´d see hundreds of 2012-promoters on ATS everyday but none of them have shown up here yet. Come on cowards, confront me

Hi havent read the whole thread this part caught my eye! Who am I what do I think? Well I really don't know. Not much help I am
People tell me this people tell me that, I question some of it, but one thing I have learnt is that I have come through some "awakening" process the last few months. 2007 I was asleep , infact Ive been asleep most of my life. Since thinking about the world and mainly the other people in it I am so much happier. I see people for who they are not just people. When you become awake to your surroundings rather than just exist in them you become alive,really alive.
I love life and I love people so much now. I care about what I say to them, I treat them as I would want them to treat me and my standard of life has improved 1000 X.
This all came from a meditation technique (heart chakra radiance on darcons thread) you basically open your heart chakra which has been dormant for thousands of years and you feel utter love for everything.

I do not agree with everything that goes with the 2012 thing and I think they know this but this feeling from heart chakra is real, its a real feeling you get and I don't have to waite until 2012 to prove this I can feel it in me now.

I agree if you look too much into a date and plan your life around it its an obsession, heres to live now, live your life well now, look after others more than yourself. Just learn to love more that will awaken you.

Oh and one more thing... DON'T BUY A THING WITH 2012 ON IT

Been there,done that in erm when was it..oh yes 2000. No no don't do that ,Ive made my self a promise I will not buy a single tea towel.
Its all on the internet free, if someone trys to sell me something I need to ascend I question it.
Thats me I question everything that is told to me, I will not take something a read just because someone says so. I am human I am an individual, this is what makes us so special, so great (apparently this is what the Greys desire from us so much ..sorry off topic) we are human not Borg and I for one will continue to question. I am an individual and thats how I will stay. I trust my intuition, I hope it serves me well up to 2012.

I am sorry Sky Buddy, but I would never thought i would ever say this, but i agree with Penny on what he said.

Originally posted by darcon
I am sorry Sky Buddy, but I would never thought i would ever say this, but i agree with Penny on what he said.

And your reasoning is...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
And your reasoning is...

Where's the confusion...? Clearly, I am the voice of reason in a cacophony of unrest and obfuscation.

Heh.......

Thank you for a thread that doesn't claim 2012 but questions it. We need balance in this discussion. I feel as if I'm still in the learning process of understanding the foundation of this 2012 hype. Without understanding how they arrived at their predictions, I find it hard to support them.

The Mayan calendar is amazing - we must acknowledge that. The fact that it coincides with the alignment of the galactic equator is quite a feat of knowledge for such an ancient culture. It makes me feel as if we have de-volved as a civilization in someways. That's my stumbling block in this theory. Has anyone delved deep enough into the Mayan culture to understand how in the world they figured out some of what they did? Do we have not just their answers but their "work sheets" that shows how they came up with the answers they did? I would like to understand how they arrived at this date and why.

There are also some strange coincidences with the theory. A simple one is the 26,000 year wobble and that we are also 26,000 light years from the galactic center. As I said, very simple. Then they get weirder. Sun spots will peak on our about that time in this solar cycle. Throw the being eaten alive Sagittarius Dwarf galaxy that we may be from instead of the Milky Way into the equation and you start to question what we think we know. The Milky Way is in the sky at an angle. We are not oriented to the galaxy's ecliptic. We currently sit above the Milky Way's disc but, hey, guess what date we start to move on and below it...yep...Dec 21, 2012.

Then there is that ticking time bomb binary star of Eta Carinae which is the only astronomical object that emits gamma-rays and is observable by the naked eye - in other words CLOSE. It's a massive hypergiant neighbor ready to blow and already in its death throws. If time travel is possible in the future and this thing has already gone off....hey I'd want someone to come back and warn us to duck and cover.

And the most weird of all for the ancient Mayans to have predicted...On the same day when our Sun is at it's solar maximum, the ecliptic of our solar system will intersect with the Galactic plane, called the "Galactic Equator" of the Milky Way. How did the Mayans know all this? These are the questions that I still have before we throw the bath water and the baby out too.

A few more...
cyclical extinctions in earth's history...
Comets....asteroids
Stars...could we be a binary system...
Whatever hit the earth at one point in history to make the moon....
The endless prophesies that SOMETHING will eventually happen.

So basically, while I believe most of what is going on is definitely "hype" I don't discount that somehow we have "forgotten" something that we need to know.

My favorite movie as a child was Horton Hears A Who. I am delighted that it is coming back because its message, though simple, is profound. We are limited by our own perceptions of size, space, time and reality. I don't believe we have progressed enough as a society, this time around
, to know definitely, that we aren't but a Who on a speck in someone else's universe waiting to fall from the flower.

In summary, how did the Mayans come up with this knowledge, so that we can, with reason, dismiss it? Thanks again for this thread...great reading on here.

Peace

Originally posted by DancedWithWolves

In summary, how did the Mayans come up with this knowledge, so that we can, with reason, dismiss it? Thanks again for this thread...great reading on here.

Peace

I like your overall approach of being open toward the possibility and at the same time being open at the chance of it being wrong. Thats perfect sanity right there.

I am not sure if I can post coherent thoughts at this time so I'll just ramble on the subject. Sorry about that...

Skyfloating, the problem I have with what you write is that you assume everyone in the World is behaving like people in North America: being dead centered on the 2012 and its significance, or are blindly buying into it (and the merchandise based on it.)

If I may remind you that most of the World is poverty stricken and enslaved population living in pathetic conditions (compared to those of North America). Some places in the World still do not have running water and electricity, which should be indicator enough that they are far from being obsessed with 2012.

Further more, even people in North America are devoid from that 2012 mania because only the progressive California circles are the ones who appear to be pushing this cult, as you put it, like they did many other things in the past, and are on the forefront of the 2012 move.
Why is that I cannot say without deeper research and I really do not wish to label people in California because it is only those snake oil salesmen that you mention who are peddling this.

Yes, other parts of USA and Canada as well partake but if you added all those people up together, they would make for a fraction of the population and would not create a significant statistics regarding a 2012 movement. There are millions of people who do not know about 2012 and do not care about it because they are preoccupied with daily survival, and they are in the majority. Making a 2012 a big deal is only happening in places (such as this and other forums and numerous websites) where the subject is discussed and where participants get a wrong impression of wide spread knowledge of the 2012 and what it supposedly signifies.

Having said the above, part of me would be greatly disappointed if nothing happens in the next ten years. I have close friends who had visions and dreams of the future (not induced by drugs or other artificial means) who have said that we are in for a really bumpy ride in the near future.

I would also be very very relieved if nothing happens because many people will not perish as it was prophesied since time immemorial.

There are way too many symbols and signs left around the World for us to simply ignore them pointing to some kind of an event in the near future. Yes, interpretations could be wrong but that would mean that everyone is collectively wrong which I cannot imagine.
Either that or all of those were fabricated by someone/something to whatever purpose and goal that obscures my knowledge at the moment.

Of course you could also be right that nothing will happen and that all those who have been spoon-fed over the years (and by 2012 we'd hope there would be millions of people) would be utterly disappointed that they would go looking for the next best thing.

Don't you agree it's an ideal opportunity for something lurking in the shadows to become that next best thing and take over under its "wing" all those "lost souls". Seeing how most people on this planet constantly await some divine intervention refusing to take charge of the situation and create a change that would make a difference, it is not unlikely that they will get that divine intervention through some fakery which will only solidify the grip our "overlords' have over all of us already, or transition us from one system to another (could be a ploy by the Church? )

My favorite movie as a child was Horton Hears A Who. I am delighted that it is coming back because its message, though simple, is profound. We are limited by our own perceptions of size, space, time and reality. I don't believe we have progressed enough as a society, this time around

oh I love this book, Im going to see the movie next week. The story is just as you say profound. We must ask our selves are we a Horton or his jungle friends who's eyes are closed?

Skyfloating,

In support of your theory...I wanted to share one other tale. I sometimes dabble in marketing strategies for diverse clients. I have a client that I have advised to pursue a back to nature, survival approach in their marketing campaign for the very reasons you outlined above. As 2012 nears, especially in the consumer based markets of the U.S., I suggested that the desire to become more self-sufficient as the world becomes more unpredictable, will be a driving sales force. This client's products and services are already geared toward the outdoors and do it yourselfers. These are customers that already live off the land in many ways. I see more and more consumers switching gears from a goal of moving up in the world with bigger car...bigger houses...bigger vacations, etc., to consumers seeking a way that they can be more independent of outside forces and more dependent on their own skills and resources to provide for themselves and their families.

So yea...in a way...I am confirming that indeed I believe many marketing campaigns, while not directly utilizing 2012, will gear more towards this preservation of the basics and survival necessities. In many ways, this spreads the message of a change coming and adds to the hype of which you speak. I'm admitting, basically, that I'm a part of the problem. I will say, however, that this return to more self-sustainable missions and goals is a change that we should seek regardless. Our culture has become obsessed with immediate gratification, climbing illusional mountains towards no end, and disposable everything - including humans. The "me" generation ended in the 80s. We are just still having a hard time letting it go.

Events or unevents like 2012 serve to refocus us in someways on the what if in life and can occasionally remind us of what our priorities should be. 2012 hype reminds us that there is a difference between what we need and what we want, and that attention should sometimes be focused on the former. The defense rests.

And, I continue to ask, how did they Mayans figure out all the astrological long-term events that they did? They definitely had it going on...or were just really great story tellers. (Great job in the debate forum btw!)

Peace

All Hail Horton!