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Christians created Hell, they made Jesus a devil

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posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 07:48 PM
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I changed the name because noone replied, I'm not 100% right, I need feedback.

I'm a big fan of Jesus. But not Christianity. It created hell for millions of people, because of his ideas. He deserved better. Heres a timeline regarding the history of human kind to show you why I think he's been misrepresented. Paganism was the first religion, now days it's called Wicca.

10,000 B.C.- Paganism begins to take shape. It is the first religion that we know existed. The pagan god was part man, part animal and had horns along with hooves. People hunted, we didn't know what farming was. Women were worshipped because they gave birth. Men didn't know they had anything to do with birth, so they worshiped women.

(8000-7,500 B.C.)- Agriculture was discovered by accident when food stored under ground started to grow. This led to the realization that children were created with the help of men too. People began to farm, this let them settle down. We became pagan which means "country dweller." We then started to ponder life and it's meaning.

Time went on, people lived freely with no rulers or guidelines. No rules to follow, actions had consequences, but they weren't determined by laws.

(0 A.D.- 650 A.D.)-The old testament was being written in the middle east at the time. People spread from Jerusalem and told of Jesus and his miracles. When they reached Rome, its rulers were bribed into converting, they recieved vast treasures. The first scriptures of paganism were also created during this time.

(Roughly 470 A.D.-1000 A.D.)- The dark ages begin, no history was recorded. When they ended, the pagan scriptures were gone. Holy wars began, and Christian leaders stated that pagans worshipped "the devil." The Crusades killed millions of people, far more than the holocaust. Even Christians were killed.

1487 A.D.- Two inquisitors of Papal Bull of Innocent the VIII named Kramer and Springer produce the book Malleus Maleficerum(Latin for "The Hammer of Witches"). It is first published in Germany. The book is often sighted for starting "The Burning Times," during which it is estimated around 9 million men, women, and children were tortured into confessing they were "witches." Consequently they were strangled, or burned at the stake.

(Kramer and Sprenger submitted the Malleus Maleficarum to the University of Cologne’s Faculty of Theology on May 9, 1487, hoping for its endorsement. Instead, the faculty condemned it as both unethical and illegal.)

1747 A.D.- The last "witch" dies in Australia.

1951 A.D.- The last anti-witch laws are abbolished.

1954 A.D.- Gerald Gardner makes Wicca popular again. He gives some credit to paganism, rightfully so.

Many Pagan people had beliefs similar to Jesus. But the sad truth is that most of them also died in the same way. Jesus died on the cross at the hands of his own people. And during those "Holy Wars" his followers used crucifixion to kill non-believers. During the crusades paganism died with it's followers. If you put holy in front of war, it doesn't make it ok.

Christianity took the horns and hoovs off a god and created a devil. In the bible Lucifer is described as a fallen angel. But he wasn't an angel, he was a fallen god. The Pagan god.

Jesus preached freedom and he died for his. But he never asked us to kill for it. When people kill in his name, they turn him into a devil. He didn't want us to have faith.

He wanted us to have freedom, because without it, faith meens nothing.


Mod Edit: All Caps – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by Crakeur]

[edit on 17-3-2008 by sumperson]




posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 07:57 PM
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I had to bump to state my sources:

The Holy Bible (old testament and new)
Wicca.org
Medievalcrusades.com
newadvent.org
malleusmaleficarum.org
christianity.com
mnsu.edu
catholic.com
allaboutspirituality.org
religioustolerance.org
paganwiccan.about.com
library.thinkquest.org

etc.(I used a lot)



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 09:29 PM
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Some of your dates are wrong (for instance, the "Old" Testament wasn't being written at 0 CE, but long before that) and I think some of your assumptions about prehistoric religion can be questioned. It's 2.30 am where I am at the moment, so I'm about to go to bed, but tomorrow I'll do some research and get some sources together and I'll out out a post with a couple of alternate timelines for the history of religion (and I'm sure there are many, some of which won't agree on a lot of points, so I'll try to make it as comprehensive as I can).

Sorry to bail on you now, but I'm dead tired. I'll get something together tomorrow night, and we can talk about the differences and what they mean for our understanding of Jesus, Christianity and their roles in shaping theories of hell, etc. Also, don't forget that other religions older than Christianity (like the various religions that fall under the umbrella title of "Hinduism") already had hell or hells in their traditions.

See you tomorrow.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 01:14 AM
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reply to post by rexpop
 


I realized some dates were wrong, I didn't change them because I don't think they matter. But you r the only person who even cared to point that out, nobody else either looked or cared. I understand that, I wanted to let someone say I was wrong, but noone even tried to tell me. I'm also tired and need to rest. But I'm tired of noone paying attention. I'm not mad, but I'm very sad, so sad that crying woudn't help.

Please do research, i'm not really up for it anymore. I'm sad. I'm just sad and tired of it. Nothing changes, but everything changes at the same time.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 02:59 AM
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Remember to keep the differences between the New and Old testament.
Aside from that, there is evidence that the mother, and the father were important even before ten thousand years ago. Take fertility idols, some had exaggerated female characteristics, some had male. Some even had both.
People probably learned to farm watching seeds fall and the plant that grew from them over time, either from seeds tossed from fruit, seeds fallen from plants, or any number of things. Also, the domestication of cattle and goats and sheep helped provide for a agricultural society. With a stable society like that, people had free time, which allowed them to do more than just survive. Sailing was invented, wheels, the plow, several basic things started to show up at this point.

Men wee long to have known to have something to do with birth. After all, no man, no baby. Women who had never known a man would not have children.
As for no laws... are you serious? Rome, Greece, the Egyptians, the Sumerian's, the Hittites, the Japanese and the Chinese. All of them had a government, law, crime and punishment well before this time.

The Middle ages actually have plenty of history involved with it. Seriously, read about it, though it's true most of it's from later. There were also technological advances that occurred during the time, however, most were either for the rich, or or towards war.

As for the rest, yeah. Christianity is not the most tolerant religion. Most Christians will admit that. The Crusades were as much a holy war as it was a way to get rid of knights. TO many knights, not enough tournaments.

Christianity also sought to convert the people by blending them in, taking part of their cultures and adding them to the Catholic church.

You are sort of correct. Satan was a pagan figure, Lucifer is a fallen angel. Satan is also Pan, or a satyr.

And yeah, if you know some of your info is wrong, it's best to correct. You'll end up with people like me posting a overlong post.
Also, apparently life was a paradise before Christianity. It didn't exactly make it better, but it didn't make it all that worse either, we've always had problems, and if Christianity hadn't come up, another one would have.
[edit on 18-3-2008 by RuneSpider]

[edit on 18-3-2008 by RuneSpider]



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 11:19 AM
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History Timeline of World Religions and its Founders

2,085 BC. Judaism-Abraham

1,500 BC. Hinduism- no specific founder [I disagree with that date, more below]

560 BC. Buddhism- Gautama Buddha

550 BC. Taoism - Lao Tzu

599 BC. Jainism, Mahavira

30 AD. Christianity –Jesus Christ

50-100 AD. Gnosticism-

150-250 AD. -Modalism (Monarchianism)–Sabellius, Praxeus, Noetus, Paul of Samosata

325 AD. -After being persecuted for almost 200 years Constantine made the Church becomes a legal religion, compromise begins to enter.

590 AD.-Roman Catholicism- Developed after Constantine; Pope Gregory?

610 AD.- Islam- Mohammed

1400 AD.- Rosicrucians-Christian Rosenkreuz (1694 US) Rosicrucians- Master Kelpius, Johann Andrea

1515 AD.- Protestantism- (Reformers) Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin

1650 AD.- Tibetan Buddhism-Dalai Lama

1700 AD.- Freemasony- Albert Mackey, Albert Pike

1760 AD.-Swedenborgism- Emmanuel Swedenborg

1784 AD.- Shakers - Mother Ann Lee

1830 AD.- Mormonism – Joseph Smith

1830 AD.-Cambellites-Alexander & Thomas Cambell, Barton Stone

1838 AD.-Tenrikyo- Miki Maegawa Nakayama

1844 AD.-Christadelphians- John Thomas

1840-45 AD.-Millerites 2nd day Adventists –William Miller then became 7th Day Adventists

1844 AD.-Bahai- Baha'u'llah (Abul Baha)

1845-1870AD.- 7th Day Adventists-E.G. White

1848 AD.-Spiritualism - Kate and Margaret Fox

1870 AD.-Jehovah's Witnesses- Charles Taze Russell

1875 AD.-Theosophical Society- H.P. Blavatsky, Henry Olcott

1879 AD.-Christian Science-Mary Baker Eddy

1889-1924 AD.-Unity School of Christianity- Myrtle Fillmore

1900 AD.-Rosicrucian Fellowship-Max Heindel

1902 AD.- Anthroposophical Society –Rudolf Steiner

1906 AD. -The Pentecostal Assemblies of the World

1914 AD.- Iglesia ni Cristo- Felix Manalo

1914 AD.- Oneness Pentecostalism- Frank Ewart, G.T.Haywood, Glenn Cook

1917 AD.-True Jesus Church. Founders Paul Wei, Lingsheng Chang and Barnabas Chang

1930 AD. -Black Muslims (Nation of Islam) –Wallace D. Fard

1927 AD.- Mind Science- Ernest Holmes

1934 AD.-World Wide Church of God- Herbert W. Armstrong

1935 AD.-Self Realization Fellowship- Paramahansa Yogananda

1954 AD.- Unification Church- Sun Myung Moon

1945 AD. -The Way -Victor P.Wierwille

1948 AD.- Latter Rain –Franklin Hall, George Warnock.

1964 AD.- Eckankar The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (Eck). Founded by Paul Twitchell

1968 AD.- Hare Krishna (US)- Swami Prabhupada

1968 AD.- Children of God- David (Moses) Berg

1945 AD.-United Pentecostal International- Howard Goss, W.T. Witherspoon (can be traced back to 1914)

1944 AD.- Silva Mind Control –Jose Silva

1950 AD.-Urantia Book- Dr. Bill Sadler

1950 AD.-Lafayette Ronald Hubbard published his book Dianetics-SCIENTOLOGY

1954 AD.-Atherius Society (UFO’s)- Dr. George King

1955 AD.- Scientology- L. Ron Hubbard

1958 AD.- Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research- Henry Kinley

1958-1970 AD.- Church Universal and Triumphant –Mark and E.C. Prophet

1958 AD. -Henry Kinley begins (IDMR) the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research

1959 AD.-Unitariarian Universalist


That's taken from www.letusreason.org...

is an excellent movie showing the history and geography of osme of the larger world religions, you might appreciate that too.

On the historical dates of Hinduism see History of Hinduism


Hinduism has prehistoric roots, including suspected survivals of traditions of the Bronze Age Indus Valley Civilization in historical Shramana traditions, and of Proto-Indo-Iranian traditions surviving in the Iron Age Vedic religion of the Indo-Aryans. Classical Hinduism emerges with the decline of Buddhism in India from the 2nd century BCE.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 11:21 AM
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[M]any of the beliefs and practices of the later and higher religions, both ancient and modern, are rooted in their prehistoric prototypes of the Old Stone Age, a period lasting roughly from about 500,000 BC to 10,000 BC. This phase therefore has its place and significance in any study of the religions of the world, past or present. The difficulty, however, about such an inquiry is that nearly all the available data are confined to those concrete survivals like graves, sacred places and their contents, sculptures, bas-reliefs, engravings and paintings that have escaped the ravages of time. Their interpretation must be to some extent conjectural, but much of the material has survived, little changed, in everyday occurrence among the peoples who live today under conditions very similar to those of early humans. If employed with proper caution such evidence can afford useful and illuminating clues to the purpose and meaning of prehistoric religion.


Taken from Prehistoric Religion



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 09:41 PM
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Keeper



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 09:48 PM
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30 AD. Christianity –Jesus Christ


Christ died at age 33 accourding to the bible.

Also you don't even mention paganism or wicca. Pagans built stonehendge. Its proven.

I mean no disrespect. But not all of those dates are correct.

Mohammed founded islam in 622 A.D.

Also it is very interesting that you say Siddhartha Gautama founded Buddhism in 560 B.C. seeing as he is believed to have been born in 563 B.C. He didn't become a buddha until he was in his 30's.

Please keep the info coming.



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 01:28 AM
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As others have pointed out, your timelines are a bit off.


Originally posted by sumperson
Paganism was the first religion, now days it's called Wicca.


You've gotten ahold of some bad information there. There is some evidence of religious practices before that, but it appears to be basic animism -- spirits are in all things. This is one of the most common interpretations of some of the paintings found at LasCaux caves.

And "paganism" simply meant "religion of the country folk." Wicca is a modern religion. Some of the older religions include various forms of worship of a number of Sumerian gods, Chinese gods, original Hindu gods, Egyptian gods (Hathor, Horus, and Bast were 3 of the earliest ones) as well as various religions of Greek gods (they're called "cults" but you can think of them as "small churches dedicated to one god (like Horus or Osiris) with priests to serve that god.

There's also (in pagan beliefs) humans who were deified (Egyptian pharaohs, and SOME (but not all) of the Roman emperors, among others.)


10,000 B.C.- Paganism begins to take shape. It is the first religion that we know existed. The pagan god was part man, part animal and had horns along with hooves. People hunted, we didn't know what farming was. Women were worshipped because they gave birth. Men didn't know they had anything to do with birth, so they worshiped women.

Pagan deities could actually be anything; most were human shaped or human like. Farming actually started around 10,000 BC or thereabouts as the ice age changed climates around the world.

Also, in spite of Murray's thesis, there's no evidence that women were worshipped, though there are some very old fertility goddesses. But they also exist along with male gods, and animal gods and gods that were combinations of many things.


(8000-7,500 B.C.)- Agriculture was discovered by accident when food stored under ground started to grow. This led to the realization that children were created with the help of men too. People began to farm, this let them settle down. We became pagan which means "country dweller." We then started to ponder life and it's meaning.

You might want to do a lot more thinking and research about that paragraph.


Time went on, people lived freely with no rulers or guidelines. No rules to follow, actions had consequences, but they weren't determined by laws.

Actually, the first thing that people do when they come together in groups of 20 or more (animals also) is make some sort of structure... who gets the food first if there's a kill, who tells them which way to go next, who determines which guy gets which girl and whether it's okay or not to marry your brother. As they come into villages and trading systems, complex systems of laws emerge. Look up "the code of Hammurabi" sometime... it's very ancient and there's a lot of it.

And the Old Testament is a set of books that was put together as a single book about 70 BC.


People spread from Jerusalem and told of Jesus and his miracles. When they reached Rome, its rulers were bribed into converting, they recieved vast treasures. The first scriptures of paganism were also created during this time.


Check out Wikipedia on the history of Christianity. It has many good links and a lot of good information:
en.wikipedia.org...


(Roughly 470 A.D.-1000 A.D.)- The dark ages begin, no history was recorded.

Erm... look up St. Augustine, the Book of Kells, Beowulf, Jordanes, Cassiodores, Constantius, Zosimus, Venerable Bede and others ( www.athenapub.com... )... and that was only European history.


Many Pagan people had beliefs similar to Jesus.

Only the New Age ones. The original ones had all sorts of beliefs that I can't see Jesus preaching.

Anyway, as others have said, it needs a lot of work.

I just came across this set of podcasts on the Byzantine empire that I'm adding to my list of "things to listen to"... it covers Christian history to some extent. I'm not sure how good it is, but you could give it a listen:
www.anders.com...



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 05:02 AM
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Originally posted by rexpop
Some of your dates are wrong (for instance, the "Old" Testament wasn't being written at 0 CE, but long before that)


Besides there is no year 0. 1BC enters straight into 1AD. That's why you always have to add one year when calculating between ie Hebrew and Gregorian dates.

And one can't equal modern Wicca with traditional paganism. Shamanism is the oldest form of religious practice we know about and is still practiced by natives around the world.



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 05:17 AM
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I can highly recommend Professor Robert Winston's book The Story of God (Amazon (other online bookstores are available)) as an excellent beginners guide to the history of religion. Winston himself is Jewish and can focus a little too much on Judaism, but in tracing what we know about the development of religion amongst early humans to the beliefs people hold today he is excellent.

Attempting to define paganism as it existed in early human communities is virtually impossible, but it is almost certainly the result of early attempts to manipulate nature and ensure successful hunts, harvests etc leading to the creation of animal gods.

Any attempted timeline of religious development will be flawed, Christianity for example was not a religion by the time Jesus died and remained a sect of Judaism for some time afterwards, it could be argued to be so even after the conversion of Constantine (who's mother was Christian). The dates of Christ's life are open to some debate as are those of all important figures in the founding of religions. Holy scriptures are equally difficult to date but many of the stories in the OT are likely to have been amongst the first ever written, hence their considered importance in the Abrahamic religions.

Edited for having fingers like pigs' nipples.

[edit on 3/4/08 by Naboo the Enigma]

[edit on 3/4/08 by Naboo the Enigma]



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