On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs: The three types of Americans, most are sheep.

Note to the Mods: If this is in the wrong place, my apologies. Please move it wherever you think would better fit the topic.

My husband and I were talking last night about the war and the current attitude people have towards the military and police and he found this excerpt entitled On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs from a book for me. It's takes a few minutes to read the whole thing, but it is well worth it. The current attitude of most people in America seems to me to be that of sheep. They deny that there is any danger and say that we don't need the military.

We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids’ schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid’s school.

This is all too true. Heaven forbid there be a fire extinguisher that doesn't work inside of a brick building, yet everyday you hear people complain about police and security being in schools. Then those same people wonder why police and security guards weren't there to prevent a school shooting.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, “Baa.”

This is also true. There are at least fifty threads on this site that involve people complaining about the military and police and there are hundreds of posts claiming that police are all "pigs" who are out to get us and the military is full of blood-thirsty mindless killing machines.

“Then there are the wolves,” the old war veteran said, “and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.” Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, “Thank God I wasn’t on one of those planes.” The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, “Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference.”

Another truth. How many times did you hear people saying "Thank God I wasn't there." "Thank God I wasn't on that plane." "Thank God I wasn't in those buildings." I personally heard it hundreds of times. But there were a few times I heard "I wish I had been there. Then this might not have happened. Things might be different."

What all the sheep seem to have forgotten is that the sheepdogs, the military and police, are a vital part of society. Without them, we are preyed upon. People seem to think that if our military were downsized until it was almost non-existent, we would be left alone and wouldn't be in any more wars. What they fail to realize is that if we are militarily weakened, we will be eaten by the wolves. We won't be left alone.

In the animal world, if the sheepdog slacks off or is prevented from protecting the sheep the wolf comes and picks the sheep off one by one. It is no different in human society. Sociopaths, murderers, and terrorists pick out the weakest sheep and kill them. I would like to think that Americans are not the weakest sheep, but we will be if we continue to prevent out military and police from doing their jobs. As it is they bound with so many rules they cannot do their jobs effectively in many cases, yet people still say they need more rules or need to be stopped from doing their jobs.

So go ahead and be a sheep, nothing wrong with that. But at least get out of the sheepdogs way when he's trying to save your tail from being chewed on by a wolf.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by Jenna]

Originally posted by Jenna
there are hundreds of posts claiming that police are all "pigs" who are out to get us and the military is full of blood-thirsty mindless killing machines.

I have been both, Jenna; pig and blood thirsty killing machine.

I agree with part of your post; that there are different types of people in the world, some born fighters, is a truth. In Iraq everyone knew who the shooters were, that 50% of soldiers who would fight before they would flee. Some have it, some dont. There are born gunslingers in this world, men and women who will never be comfortable without a gun in their hand. Some of those gunslingers even have the will to fight, we call them warriors. Those warriors are the shooters, and we did 90% of the fighting in Iraq.

I dont like your sheepdog theory though. You romanticize that all or most police and military are in it to protect people and that is just not true.

Being a cop does not inherently make you good. I will tell you from my experience on a large metro police force that most cops aren’t there to protect anyone except themselves and each other. There is an us vs. them mentality amongst cops, and the "them" is YOU if you aren’t one of them.

Same holds true for military. Us vs. them. As soldiers we are better than the fat chick at Burger King serving us food. She isn’t one of us, she doesn’t know. She should do the world a favor, kill herself. Wouldn’t hurt my feelings, she is worthless. This is not how a small percentage feel, but how MOST feel (cant speak for the Navy and Air force, I am referring to the grunts, the warriors.)

The problem is that those gunslingers need to be around their own kind, people who understand and think like they do. Morals have nothing to with it. They gravitate to the military, and when they are done there they cant stand it so they join a police force. I know how it feels; I did the same damn thing. I have since tried to lay down my weapons, leave behind that part of my life. It is tearing me apart, driving me crazy. I sell pools for a living now, but I carry a gun while doing it. I have time to take my kids fishing now, but I carry a gun doing it. I cant leave it behind, it is what I am. I feel lonely not being surrounded by people who understand, the pigs and baby killers who used to be my friends, my brothers even. I am loosing my mind here selling pools. I have even begun to suffer periods of derealization.

You may not like that, it may not fit with your "sheepdog" image, but you need to face the truth, that society’s gunslingers and warriors can also be sheep or wolves, or a pig in a dog's clothing.

Welcome to the real world, Jenna, a world where your sheepdog is someone else’s wolf. Sleep well.




[edit on 17-3-2008 by cavscout]

reply to post by cavscout


That is one of the most sobering posts I have ever read.

I hope that you can find peace.

It really is a brave new world!

Originally posted by whaaa
That is one of the most sobering posts I have ever read.

Let me tell you, it is odd the things you don’t realize until your mind starts tearing in two. I appreciate your response, it sort of validates my thoughts, makes me realize that perhaps if you can understand me then I am not as crazy I think, yet.

I hope that you can find peace.

I find peace every day in my wife and children, although the real world has a tendency to up and slap me in the face when I am not looking, like when I read the OP.

I will find true peace when I am dead, so long as I can find redemption for my soul, so long as I am forgiven for the things I have done. For now my past haunts me and my mind is torn between who I am (was?) and who I try (want?) to be.

Thank you.

Originally posted by cavscout
I dont like your sheepdog theory though. You romanticize that all or most police and military are in it to protect people and that is just not true.

Being a cop does not inherently make you good. I will tell you from my experience on a large metro police force that most cops aren’t there to protect anyone except themselves and each other. There is an us vs. them mentality amongst cops, and the "them" is YOU if you aren’t one of them.

Actually, it's not my theory. It's the theory presented in the book excerpt I linked to that I agree with. There are bad cops, just as there are bad people in the military. But there are not nearly as many as there are good cops and good people in the military. There is a section in the link where the author is talking about the sheepdogs and how they must not ever harm the sheep. If they do, they must be removed. The same holds true for the cops and military. The ones who will or do harm those not in the military or police force must be removed from their positions. This doesn't always happen but it should.

Same holds true for military. Us vs. them. As soldiers we are better than the fat chick at Burger King serving us food. She isn’t one of us, she doesn’t know. She should do the world a favor, kill herself. Wouldn’t hurt my feelings, she is worthless. This is not how a small percentage feel, but how MOST feel (cant speak for the Navy and Air force, I am referring to the grunts, the warriors.)

I'm sorry you feel that way. I have known hundreds of people that are currently in or have been in the military, and I have to disagree with you. While there is always the occasional person who thinks they are better than everyone else, just like everywhere else in society, the majority that I have known do not feel that way. And they certainly don't think the "fat chick" should just kill herself.

I don't know anyone on the police force well enough to agree or disagree with you on that one so I won't try.

You may not like that, it may not fit with your "sheepdog" image, but you need to face the truth, that society’s gunslingers and warriors can also be sheep or wolves, or a pig in a dog's clothing.

Welcome to the real world, Jenna, a world where your sheepdog is someone else’s wolf. Sleep well.

Some sheepdogs are sheep until a situation arises that forces them into action. And I agree that some only pretend to be warriors, while deep inside they are really the wolves. That is why we have military and police who go beyond protecting the rest of us and harm people for no reason other than they can.

I must say though, I don't understand how my original post was a slap in the face to you.. That's got me a bit puzzled. The intent of my original post was to point out to those who do nothing but complain about police and the military that they are there for a good reason. If you get rid of them, we have no protection. While there are some who do not do their jobs as they are intended, they are the exception not the rule. How exactly is that a slap in the face?

You say you've been in the military and a cop, thank you for doing the thankless job that both of those are.

Jenna, I first noticed something while in the Army that I am going to share with you because I think that you fit the mold, although I could be wrong.

Wives of soldiers and cops tend to develop an extreme case of hero worship for their spouses and those in their spouses occupation. It is funny that a wife will, 9 times out of 10, defend the military personnel with zeal unrivaled even by the soldier himself. My wife certainly did. As soldiers we all new, even if deep down inside places we don’t go, that the truth was that we in it for ourselves and each other. Our wives rarely realized this and they would adopt this hero image of us, often defending us to the point that we would actually be embarrassed. We would joke about it, sit around the motor pool and talk about how our wives went off on someone in our defense and what not.

You see, we all knew that we were not part of normal society and that we need not defend ourselves to mere civilians. We were different, a sub-culture with little in common with civilians. Sure, we love our families and like to watch TV or read books, but so do criminals and Iraqis. The civilians could never understand what we had been through, the values we held close to our hearts. We, in turn, could never understand the civilians. Phrases like "I can’t" or "I quit" were foreign to us. We were a different cut, built on the same mold but honed, fine-tuned. We watched out for each other, those who wore Army green. We didn’t give a crap about the freedoms and living conditions of civilians. Sure, we would say we did when someone would play a video that started off with the picture of an eagle imposed over a waving flag, we would get all emotional and big headed, but at the end of the day it all boiled down to protecting each other and our families.

You can say all you want what military personnel or cops have told you, but you cant get in their heads, and until you put on a uniform and join a combat arms unit you will never understand the hive mentality of the military.

Us vs. them. They will never know what we went through, what we stand for, they are less than us. We fight for each other "we band of brothers."

If I am wrong about you being the spouse or other close relative of a soldier or cop I am sorry and please correct me there.

If I am right, it is relative for obvious reasons.



Now on another topic, what you fail to realize is that every person’s savior is someone else’s demon.

Example: To you, those American gunslingers and warriors in Iraq are fighting for your freedoms, your way of life, to keep you safe at night.

To the Iraqi who now has lost family, freedom, and their way of life, your savior is a demon. To him, that Iraqi freedom fighter who strives in vain against the overwhelming invading force from a far away land is a hero, a savior. That same man behind with AK and RPG who is your demon is the Iraqi's savior, his hero, who he will defend against all reason and logic as you will defend yours.

Jenna, your hero is someone's demon. That someone's hero is your demon.

I realized all this while still in Iraq, and it broke my heart to have to kill those men who were fighting for their country.

And make no mistake, they are fighting for their country. You hear things like they hate our freedom, they hate our way of life. They, however, did not come here an attack us. Our freedom meant nothing to them. WE ATTACKED THEM. They fight for their country, their families, and their freedom.

And to their wives and daughters, they are heroes.

Originally posted by Jenna
I must say though, I don't understand how my original post was a slap in the face to you.. That's got me a bit puzzled.

You post was not a slap in the face. What I meant was that I try to dissociate that part of my life, to forget that somewhere in the world bad men are doing bad things on my behalf and I was once there, along side them. Then along comes a post like this, or a well-meaning person in real life who thanks me for my service, and BLAM! the universe forces me back into the reality we live in where I am someone's demon, someone’s terror. It is fine, I live in regret of the things I have done, the war I waged.

You say you've been in the military and a cop, thank you for doing the thankless job that both of those are.

Dear Lord, Jenna! Don’t thank me for the people I have killed, for the blood I spilled. Don’t thank someone for fresh brains boiling on the Baghdad pavement and little children screaming and passing out in terror, or if they are lucky lying face up in the morgue. Don’t ever thank someone for that again or you may have God to answer to like I have to. What is in our hearts can be as damning as our actions.

What a sad sick world I have helped foster.

I don’t want your thanks, I need your forgiveness.




[edit on 17-3-2008 by cavscout]

Just remembered a quote I want you think about.

Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime - Ernest Hemingway

Now I dont think that war is ever justified ro necessary, but I feel that you do.

I do agree with Hemingway that it is always a crime.

And below, a Hemingway quote I feel to the depths of my soul

I know war as few other men now living know it, and nothing to me is more revolting. I have long advocated its complete abolition, as its very destructiveness on both friend and foe has rendered it useless as a method of settling international disputes. - Ernest Hemingway

And, the best for last, a Hemingway quote that our entire nation should heed

"You can wipe out your opponents. But if you do it unjustly you become eligible for being wiped out yourself." - Ernest Hemingway

[edit on 17-3-2008 by cavscout]

Yes, I am a soldier's wife. But if you have read any of my posts on different threads, I have repeatedly said I don't agree with what our military is currently doing. I don't agree or approve of this war and never have. But we're in it and we're stuck, so there we are. I was also in the national guard at one point in my life, but I never saw combat and honestly never made it completely through basic due to injuries I incurred while there. I took those injuries as a sign that maybe I was meant to do something else with my life and never re-enlisted after my discharge. As for hero worship, the way I see it anyone who joins the military or the police and knows they could potentially be killed for doing their job but does it anyway is a hero, though their actions while in either of those may strip them of the hero title. But no, I do not feel I have a case of hero worship. I do understand your point though.

As I said before, I don't agree with the war. Our military would not be anyone's demon if we could keep our noses out of other countries business every once in awhile and frankly I think our country would be better off if we did. It is not our place to bring democracy to the world. We achieved our own freedom from England a long time ago and other countries are just as capable of overthrowing their own governments if they don't like how they are being ruled. Only if we manage to work out a system in our own country where there are no jobless, homeless, or starving people anywhere in America should we even begin to think we can tell other countries how they should live. And even then it should be a suggestion, not a "let's blow it up and rebuild it the way we want it to be" thing. And seeing as how that's never going to happen we should quit trying to run other countries and focus on our own.

I didn't thank you for killing anyone. I would never thank anyone for that. I said thank you because you had the brass ones to join the military and to be a cop. Those are both thankless jobs and everyone tends to look down on those who do either one, let alone both. I'm sure you've done many things you would take back if you could as I'm sure most of those who have been to war since the beginning of time have. You only did what you had to do to stay alive. But if it's forgiveness you need, you have it.

reply to post by Jenna



Thank you for a well reasoned and polite response!

And thank you for admitting that I was right when I guessed that you are military spouse. My long post above would be foolish had I been wrong about that.

I am confused about one thing: You say that you are against the war, yet you bring to ATS this thread, wherein you summarize a book stating that soldiers are the sheepdogs for a society of sheep.

If you are against the war, and you realize that we should not be in Iraq terrorizing an entire nation, then how are the soldiers there, on the ground, acting as your sheepdog? What wolves are they protecting you from?

Aren’t they just someone else’s wolves themselves?



[edit on 17-3-2008 by cavscout]

You're welcome and thank you for being polite and well-reasoned also. It's nice to have a conversation here on ATS that doesn't devolve into a mud-slinging match!

My reasoning for starting this thread was to point out that we have a military for a reason. They are not supposed to be sent off to terrorize other nations, they are suppose to be here to defend us when we are attacked. The military is supposed to serve the same function as a family pet that has also been trained to guard you and your family. When all is peaceful they are friendly, when someone tries to break into your house in the middle of the night to harm you they protect you. Whether it's barking up a storm to alert you to danger or attacking the intruder themselves to save you from harm. It's not a perfect analogy, but I think you understand my point. The military is here for when the crap hits the fan to save the masses from harm. But they can only do their job if the masses let them.

Our military is currently acting like a wolf, in that you are correct. But that I blame on a president and congress who were a bit too eager to rush to war without all the facts. Originally, our military was sent to find Bin Laden for attacking us on 9-11. I still do not understand how finding him and making him accountable involved ousting Saddam or taking over Iraq, and I don't suppose I will ever understand though I have tried. The logic just escapes me. But that's a different topic.

Now that we are in Iraq and have destroyed everything those people knew, it wouldn't do anyone any good to just leave them to fend for themselves. We shouldn't have gone there to begin with, but we did and now we are stuck there until they can defend themselves. By they, I mean the new government they have in place of Saddam not the insurgents who are killing pretty much everyone they can take a shot at whether they are Iraqi or American. The moment Iraq can run and defend herself we need to get our butts out of there and start minding our own business. That would be a pleasant change. Then our military wouldn't be sent to play the role of the wolf in another country. They could stay right here at home and be our sheepdog.

Even though there are some bad apples in the military, I don't believe it is their fault they are playing the role of the wolf. As I'm sure you know, when you are in the military you do what you're told. They were told to go to Iraq. They didn't choose it themselves.



Edit for spelling... Hard to spell right when typing one handed!!

[edit on 17-3-2008 by Jenna]