Pentagon DNA Evidence....Is it Possible?, page 3

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reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 01:51 PM by megaman1234

reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

Back again - same arguements - sigh..

Craig - I guess I have a problem with your premise here. Lets think about it this. Say a murder happens. The police dept sends out forensic investigators, collects witness statements, gets dna samples etc etc etc. Thats thier job right? Say they get a conviction based on that evidence - fantastic way to go right?

Well - then someone decides that they don't agree with the conviction and attempt to retry it.

By your anaology - ALL evidence collected by the police would be invalid - because it was collected by what is now the defense.

Does that really make any sense to anyone at all?

Those govt entities that collected evidence at the pentagon and elseware did so because thats thier job. We pay taxes for them to do exactly what they did.

We cannot go back in time and have it done by cilivian angencies.

In my opinion that where you lose most people. You are denying the work of many many honest people - on some invented technicality.

Basically this is what you are doing. You are "appealing" the govt case convicting the hijackers. But even on appeal - you still have to deal with all the evidence collected. You can't just toss out that arguement that it all is tainted - with no proof of that.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by megaman1234]

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 02:01 PM by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
You are talking about the WTC. Not the Pentagon.

But heat destroys DNA if its at the WTC or the Pentagon.

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 02:05 PM by talisman

reply to post by megaman1234

I think his point is that the Gov/CIA is the suspect and they have control over all that is collected, the POLICE are only doing their jobs etc.

Do people really trust organizations that use to plot fake terrorism and had their fare share of experiments with Mind Control?

Or the present Gov which had no real interest in Bin Laden but went all crazy for Saddam and killed how many hundreds of thousands of innocents in IRAQ???

I believe that the CIA and the Gov has to earn the trust back, and this "IN THE INTEREST OF NATIONAL SECURITY" has been the traditional cover for their crimes.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by talisman]

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 02:08 PM by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by megaman1234
Those govt entities that collected evidence at the pentagon and elseware did so because thats thier job. We pay taxes for them to do exactly what they did.

You mean we paid taxes for the FBI to spend only 5 days on the Pentagon crime scene?

We paid taxes for FBI agents to pick up and take personal objects from the crime secenes ?

[edit on 17-3-2008 by ULTIMA1]

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 02:35 PM by Spoodily

Here are photos of some remains from the Pentagon. The 'inferno' that warped and collapsed the twin towers should have been of the same caliber as the pentagon crash, right? The fire ball from the pentagon wasn't as large as at the towers so I would figure that more fuel remained to burn in the pentagon than the towers. Why is there anything at all left? I see a scenario similar to a grill falling apart from heat before the burgers are even done. I conclude that human beings are more heat resistant than steel. Maybe if there were pools a lava under the pentagon like there were at the towers and building 7 the scene would be different.

[edit on 3/17/2008 by Spoodily]

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 03:16 PM by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Spoodily Here are photos of some remains from the Pentagon.

If the fires were hot enough to destroy the plane it would have also destroyed DNA.

I still see no evidnece that any of the bodies were from Flight 77.

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 03:51 PM by The_Modulus

reply to post by Spoodily

Those are some graphic images!

I would argue that bodies may survive extreme heat for a short period of time because they are made of about 75% water, which surely gives a significant amount of protection.

Entertaining the premise that these bodies were planted, is there anything we can know about their cause of death from the photographs provided by Spoodly? The body in the first image seems to have been clutching something with his hands judging from the way the wrists are bent, in a way that resembles clutching the handles of a plane seat just before it crashes?

Are there any non-governmental witnesses that have testified to seeing bodies? Although it would probably be problematic to distinguish between pentagon employees and 77 passengers...

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 03:54 PM by The_Modulus

Another thought, surely the bodies pictured above have stood the best chance of identification. Would it be possible therefore to reference with family members of the deceased regarding what they were wearing on the day, photographs perhaps? Or even just positively identifying them from the images...

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 03:57 PM by magicmushroom

The problem with this so called evidence is this, we do not know who was on the plane, we do not know if evidence was planted so any eveidence at the Penatagon dose not mean its proof positive of the official story.

And given that the US Goverment is up to its neck in lies, deceit, murder, torture and all the rest of it how can anyone believe a word they say anymore. They have lost all credibility and only the newborn and the very naieve could believe them.

Its simple on 9/11 the Goverment of the US colluded with groups uknown to perpatrate the biggest mass murder in US History and got away with it.
And whats more important is what is going to happen next given that the event would have to be on agreater scale than 9/11. Maybe 24 with offer up some clues.

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 04:05 PM by CaptainObvious

reply to post by ULTIMA1

Ultima... it is POSSIBLE for heat to destroy DNA. Read the op and the links. Don't move the goal posts now.

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 04:09 PM by Retikx

reply to post by CaptainObvious

You misunderstood my post, i did not mean to say that 99% of the flesh and bone was recovered from the passengers and crew, i meant that 99% of the passengers and crew were positively identified BY bits of flesh bone and blood.

In there lies the conundrum, if 90% of the plane vaporized upon impact then it stands to reason that there would be simply no possible way for 99% of the passengers and crew to be positively identified, as i said the flesh and bone was INSIDE the "plane" that vaporized. If your going to claim that most of the plane disappeared due to intense heat then your not going to find much left of the flesh and bone.

Titanium vaporizes at temperatures well over 4000deg in fact its vaporization point is 425 kJ·mol−1 and Im guessing that a big number (the engines that were never found contained lots of titanium)
en.wikipedia.org...

Aluminum which the "plane" would have been mostly comprised of vaporizes at temperatures of 294.0 kJ·mol−1 (these numbers are staggeringly monstrously large.
en.wikipedia.org...

Human dna is completely destroyed at 200 deg..

Now you do the math, and run the probabilities of human DNA being recovered after temp of over 500 000 deg (which is impossible all its own) had vaporized 90% of the "plane".

But then again they did find the hijackers passports and jihad hats so i guess science and physics don't mean # when Allah is on your side..

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 04:11 PM by The_Modulus

reply to post by magicmushroom

I think it is unfair, and rather poor investigating, to throw out any evidence which any governmental organisation is in possession of simply because we think that they are are historically a dishonest organisation. I think far too many people are using a circular justification for disbelieving anything the government provides as evidence. Firstly you assume that the government was involved, then you disregard their evidence because they are obviously filthy, lying ba*'s for having orchestrated these events and lied about it.

Until you can disprove evidence from the government by means other than hitting the ignore button, the argument goes nowhere.

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 04:16 PM by Spoodily

Please note my sarcastic tone in my posting as you can see by my signature I lean a certain way concerning 9-11 involvement. I, on the other hand, am not someone that thinks that if a few are involved that all are involved. This is why I disagree with the blanket statement of 'the government did it' ideology. It is incorrect and over exaggerated.

This does not mean that there were not any members or their associates of our revolving door government that were involved in the events of 9-11.

I would like to know why they 'reinforced' that particular section of the pentagon specifically and how vacant that area was to allow for such construction. It is the pentagon so I'm sure that there was still security in place to keep the construction workers contained in specific work areas. When I look at those pictures I see what looks more like a movie set rather than an actual wreckage site. Maybe the 'scene' was being built at the same time the other construction was being done. I think more pentagon people died in that 'crash' than airplane passengers.

[edit on 3/17/2008 by Spoodily]

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 04:20 PM by CaptainObvious

Originally posted by magicmushroom
The problem with this so called evidence is this, we do not know who was on the plane,

Um, Yes we do.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
we do not know if evidence was planted so any eveidence at the Penatagon dose not mean its proof positive of the official story.

Yes we do. There is no evidence to support the evidence being planted.

The rest of your post is like the rest...a rant of opinions.

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 04:21 PM by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Ultima... it is POSSIBLE for heat to destroy DNA. Read the op and the links. Don't move the goal posts now.

Yes i know this. Thats why the head of the DNA operation wanted NIST to come with new testing.

Question is how were almost all the bodies identified before the new testing was ready?

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 04:28 PM by CaptainObvious

Originally posted by Retikx

You misunderstood my post, i did not mean to say that 99% of the flesh and bone was recovered from the passengers and crew, i meant that 99% of the passengers and crew were positively identified BY bits of flesh bone and blood.

No i didn't misunderstand it. I took your quote for what it was. Not to be a jerk... but one out of 64 does not equal 99%. 63 out of 64 were identified. Only the little 2 year old was not identified.

In there lies the conundrum, if 90% of the plane vaporized upon impact then it stands to reason that there would be simply no possible way for 99% of the passengers and crew to be positively identified, as i said the flesh and bone was INSIDE the "plane" that vaporized. If your going to claim that most of the plane disappeared due to intense heat then your not going to find much left of the flesh and bone.

Again... your opinion. Where is it stated that 90% of the plane vaporized? I will have to do a little research to comfirm this.

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 04:30 PM by CaptainObvious

reply to post by ULTIMA1

STOP it Ultima. You are not posting honest statements and you KNOW IT. There is no where documented where anyone from the teams that were indentifying the remains at the Pentagon were looking for new methods. I told this to you in a previous post. You are talking about the WTC team.

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 04:35 PM by SlightlyAbovePar

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
reply to post by SlightlyAbovePar

The context of the conversation is set by the forum you are posting in which is "9/11 conspiracies".

So that means the suspect is the government.

Therefore all unverifiable evidence that was controlled and provided for solely by the suspect is invalid evidence to DISPROVE government involvement in the crime.

The alleged DNA evidence is unverifiable and therefore completely invalid when using the scientific method to determine government involvement in the event.

There is no way around this fact.

Thanks for replying but, your answers aren't to any questions I asked.

Unverifiable to whom? You? How can you make this claim? On what basis to make this claim? How is the DNA testing "unverifiable"?

Using the scientific method to determine government involvement in the event? What, exactly, are you talking about? What does the scientific method have to do with the principles involved?

You're not talking facts, your floating ideas and suppositions you consider fact(s).

Big difference.

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 04:42 PM by Craig Ranke CIT

Originally posted by megaman1234
reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

Back again - same arguements - sigh..

Craig - I guess I have a problem with your premise here. Lets think about it this. Say a murder happens. The police dept sends out forensic investigators, collects witness statements, gets dna samples etc etc etc. Thats thier job right? Say they get a conviction based on that evidence - fantastic way to go right?

Well - then someone decides that they don't agree with the conviction and attempt to retry it.

By your anaology - ALL evidence collected by the police would be invalid - because it was collected by what is now the defense.

Wrong.

Your analogy has no bearing on this situation where the government is the actual suspect.

The question is whether or not the government was involved so to accept data that was completely controlled and provided for by the government as proof that they are innocent is illogical and purely faith based.

If the data is unverifiable and solely controlled by the government to accept it as evidence against government involvement defeats all logic and reason.

You might as well simply ask Bush if he was involved and accept his verbal answer as proof.

I understand that most official story supporters are perfectly willing to accept unverifiable evidence in support of the government story based on their faith.

True skeptics demand verifiable independent evidence.

reply posted on 17-3-2008 @ 04:43 PM by SlightlyAbovePar

reply to post by Griff

You're making the assumption that no passengers were in the back of the plane to begin with.

It's really this simple: evidence of a conspiracy would be obvious and repeatable. We wouldn't be arguing back and forth over the legitimacy of dead people strapped, or not, into plane seats. Believers are claiming the witness in question saw dead bodies in office chairs, not plane seats. How sad is it that the discussion has come to this?

Think about it; you're calling out someone's firsthand account because it doesn't fit within your pre-defined conclusion(s).