9/11 What evidence would make you believe in a conspiracy?

be back latter I salute u mate best discusion i have ever had with anyone anywhere FUN FUN

reply to post by plasmacutter


You make some very good points with a good understanding of the principles and practical experience as well

That red-hot liquid managing to make it to ground level without solidifying would indicate that it wasn't steel but something with a much lower melting point well below 800C and lead is capable of those characteristics among materials other than steel. If it was steel it would have been blindingly white-hot to remain liquid regardless of any chemical processes involved as you'd know from experience in welding and cutting steel - it's so bright you need eye protection (welding goggles).

On the subject of smoke colour we need to remember the size of those floors affected by fire and where the heart of the fire actually was. Consider the temperature gradient from the heart of the fire to the air outside the building and the fact that evidence of temperatures only reaching about 250C max were experienced by the outer walls. If the heart of the fire is at the centre of the building, high temps can be experienced there while the gradient to ambient temp subjects material away from the core to lesser temps with distance. Material like rubber foam carpet underlay can generate huge amounts of black smoke masking a far hotter fire inside it and on that scale (1 acre floor areas) the smoke is not a good indicator of the actual maximum fire temperature or evidence of oxygen starvation. The exposed elevator shafts in the core would make a very effective chimney.

Now with all that, I believe fire was an obvious factor in the initiation of collapse but molten steel was not. The fires only affected a very small percentage of the total structure but it was the area that took the huge hit from the aircraft that experienced the worst of it and that's where the initial failure occurred.

How could explosives remain functional for about an hour if they were present in that inferno?





[edit on 22/3/2008 by Pilgrum]

U do realize thermal images from above where taken and the hottest temp was said to be 1750 F well below 2800 F.

and yes im aware of objects creating black smoke ,

But the fact remains a non conrolled cant maintain a continuious heat to keep a 2800 F temp. no fuel can create 2800 F in open air eviroment,

I didnt make that law of thermal physics , mother nature did .

and lead in its molten state is not red ,it would start to turn to vapor .


copper and its alloys , steel,and all steel alloys in molten state will be red , when molten more a yellow orange tho .

and yes from my welding expierance it is bright and i do wear cuting goggles?

whats happens to my molten stell the second it hits the conrete or dirt floor???

the molten droplets of steel that i cut solidfi the second it moves from my cutting tip or the other side of the plate .

and bring some led to its molten state and drop it on the ground see how fast it solidfis

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

to make a comparison ,

Falling molten metal will cool very very fast and once it hits the ground

the ground or what ever it lands on will pull the heat right out of the molten metal and it will soldifi( that is if it makes it to the ground still molten.

think of it this way

that molten metal is like your heart trying to heat the whole oacen if u fall in to real cold water . your heart just cant keep that much water heated fast enough to keep from pulling all your heat out of ur body

so u die of hyperthermia

my molten pools of metal are your heart and the ground is the water

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

You'd understand my view then that it would be a virtual impossibility for steel melted at the time of collapse to be found still molten weeks later, regardless of how much of it was created. I've seen pics of red-hot apparently molten material but none of a blinding incandescent mass to support the claims of 'lakes of molten steel'.

The thermographic survey would see the surface obscuring the actual temperature within the pile and temperatures capable of heating steel to its austenitic phase and above are not impossible with very conventional fires. FEMA detected evidence of granular melting associated with heavy corrosion.

If steel melting was the cause of the towers collapsing there'd be a fantastic amount of solidified steel under the rubble but it seems there wasn't. The majority of recovered core column sections are remarkably undamaged and appear to have snapped apart at the welded joints.

Look ill admit the fire played a roll in helping the buildings come down ,

All im saying is on that day we should not find any molten metal falling , pooling on the ground or pooling under ground.

no flame reached the physical temperature to create any kind of molten in pools after the colapses

Thats all i am saying, the glow red or very HOT or this or that mean nothing till we figure out what made molten metal on that day

no open air fire that day reach 2800F to keep steel molten for very long

All other etals that day (alluminium gold, silver, lead, copper, zinc ,manganease,magnesium ,) cool so fast that they could not have remaind molten long enough to take the pictures ,unless it was taken right at the heat source.

( As far as i know all pictures of molten metal of any kind was taken from outside right??)

and i dont think there where many exotic metals or not enough to make any kind of effect?? or where there??

(berylium,neodymium,titanium,cibalt ect ect ) i dont think so was there?? i realy dont know im just asking??

www.investigate911.com...

i231.photobucket.com...


then we both agree these to picture are imposable right.

you also seem to understand molten metal properties

like i said (i dont care if fire weaend the steel)

no mater what brought the towers down, we both agree there should not be any molten metal after the Towers colapsed right, or any thing molten days later

unless it was a chemical reaction right??

So like i said fire did cause stress to the buildings,

but it did not reach a consistant temp of 2800 F for any length of time,

needed to create molten metal.after the fire was removed from the metal

wich we find in front of the fire truch and flowing out the side of the building



[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

""Austenite
Phase in certain steels, characterized as a solid solution, usually of carbon or iron carbide, in the hamma form of iron. Such steels are known as austenitic. Austenite is stable only above 1333 (degrees) F. in a plain carbon steel, but the presence of certain alloying elements, such as nickel and manganese, stabilizes the austenitec form, even at normal temperatures. ""

but unless we actualy test the comp of the steel we dont know what % by wieght of the other alloys, they destroyed it all, Or did they test it??

The majority of metal would have been steel and aluminium, then copper plumbing. The corner of the building where what looked like molten metal was seen pouring out just happened to be the location of a large UPS setup (Fuji bank I think) with lots of large lead-acid batteries. The other more exotic metals would have been present but not in quantities capable of making a puddle.

The fact that the liquid seen pouring out was only red-hot suggests it couldn't have been steel.

But regardless that realy has no bearing hear for molten metal only structural heat fatague inconsistencies

not weather it melts 1000s F lower then its normal melting point of 2800 F we agree right

what else built by man when heated to its molten state other than metal

what else will glow red and flow when heated that will stay molten from a fall of 1000 feet?? and with 110 acres of air gushing down cooling it off?



I only know 1 thing !!! A chemical reaction(thermite creates moltem metal and will stay molte until the chemical reaction is done.( thermite alluminium powder and metal oxide = iron oxiden when set on fire or sparked) if u didnt alredy know

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

And dont say glass we know it wasnt,

That 'metal' seen pouring out wasn't experiencing any heat input from the moment it started falling so the only way it could arrive at the ground still molten is that it left the building hot enough to still be liquid after the fall so it would need to be near boiling point for steel (3000C) but it was only red-hot so we can rule that out. It would have to be something that had a huge temperature range between melting and boiling points where the boiling point is only in the red-heat range and lead fits that description (boils at 1700C, melts at 330C).

Lead heated to that temperature (red-heat 800C) quickly forms a surface layer of black oxide which obscurs the incandescent liquid but pouring it would reveal the glowing molten metal under the oxide.

I'm just guessing based on observations of course but no rivers of white hot steel were observed. Some localised high temperature effects in the rubble fire are very possible but that's after the towers were down and I don't think molten metal had anything to do with their failure - it's just a symptom we're getting hung up on while the disease goes unchecked

[edit on 22/3/2008 by Pilgrum]

Originally posted by plasmacutter
I only know 1 thing !!! A chemical reaction(thermite creates moltem metal and will stay molte until the chemical reaction is done.( thermite alluminium powder and metal oxide = iron oxiden when set on fire or sparked) if u didnt alredy know

An ongoing thermite reaction while it fell would result in white-hot liquid and it's an extremely bright reaction producing liquid iron and clouds of aluminium oxide - this was not seen. It would look like a carbon arc lamp on the way down.

www.investigate911.com...

do U agree this is still molten and if so

look at the size of the beam it is near thats 1 inch plate or better and a good 10 to 15 foot long and that beam weights a lot so dose that metal tho molten still weighs tons

it is not that small of a beam, wich to scale is very big pool of glowing molten whatever

and in all of the shots of molten WHATEVER falling out of the towers, is no small amout

look at the pics agin and get some scal

that falling molten Whatever is huge

look at window with people in it

then put a pic of what ever u are calling the glowing stuff falling out of the buildin and compre scale

u will notice there is tons of glowing What ever coming out

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

[edit on 22-3-2008 by plasmacutter]

better yet take a relative amount of paper,wood,carpet,copper,sheet rock,data wire, glue silacone , Jet fuel ect ect make a little pile on ur drive way

put some different thickness of metal in there and tell me which onse melted and which once glowed red and which ones just became very very hot and burnt or they just blued

use tin can ,allumium can some nails ,u can get some thin gauge sheet metal from hard ware store


i got tons of scrap so maybe i should re create somthing and video it



Yeah ill weld a small structure up and do it

U guys tell me the ruels

Originally posted by jfj123
Well to start, we don't know that the steel got red hot AFTER the building collapsed. It may have been red hot before and then been buried after the collapse.

There are no reports of the fires getting hot enough to cause the steel to get red hot.

I do research and post facts and evidence, if they go against the officail story thats not conspiracy.



[edit on 22-3-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Dont go crazy my wife wont let me do a full scal modle so keep smaller please

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
How many airplane (of a compariable type to the 747) collisions with a building in mid-air have you had to deal with in your time as a whatever?

Well for one the planes that were supposed to have the towers were 767s not 747s. You should at least be able to get the planes right.

Second there was a b-25 that hit the Empire state building.

Third, i have shown several times steel buildings that had longer lasting fires and MORE STRUCTURAL DAMAGE then the towers and did not collapse.