9/11 What evidence would make you believe in a conspiracy?

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by jfj123
I was hoping to see reports, calculations from the actual engineers. Also is there a site that is not skewed? Obviously they're selling a product on that sight so I was wondering if there is an independent sight that is neutral?? Thanks for the link.

Gee, i usually get insulted if i cherry pick sites.

Hopefully you didn't take my request as an insult. I was just wondering if you had a more neutral site I could read that doesn't have anything but the truth to gain from their site.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by scottie18
Here is 1 example of your attack on me.

Please read the following sentence slowly and as many times as it takes for you to understand it.

Here is 1 example of your attack on me.

It was not the first and there are many more examples. Also i noticed you attacked me again by calling me a joke.

Whats it going to take for you to be man enough to admit when i post actual facts and evidence ?

Not to argue a point but his response was to your attack. Had you not attacked, the quote you posted never would have been posted in the first place.

Let all try to get back to the subject matter and remember, post actual, verifiable, unbiased evidence as you (you meaning anyone) may be called on it. Look everyone here has been wrong at one time or another, myself included so lets not pretend we haven't.

These are getting close but you'd have to see it in person to get the full effect of it:





Note that a thermite reaction is about 1000C hotter than these pics for an idea of just how bright it is.

[edit on 30/5/2008 by Pilgrum]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by _Del_
Have you noticed an inability to get along with other people? Perhaps there is a common link in all these instances.

Yes i do not get along with people that either lie about me or insult me.

You're getting what you're giving. I have been VERY nice to you yet you have attacked me. Once again I must remind you that the ONLY reason I started this thread was a favor to you. The only reason I have been turse with you was when you started being rude or evasive to me and required me to fulfill your requirements for evidence but did not apply the same standards to yourself.

So based on the fact that I started this thread as a favor to you, you'd think we could have gotten off on the right foot yet we did not. Let's try and change that. Why not simply be polite. Disagree but in a polite way.

Originally posted by Pilgrum
Back on the topic of molten steel, colour temperature etc.

From one of Ultima's links I found this pic of what appears to be hot steel in a rolling mill and I circled the hottest part in this (very good) picture. It looks like a steel I-beam being formed and the fact that it is self supporting between the rollers shows that even at near white heat, it isn't at all liquid but it's obviously soft enough to be shaped. I note the source claims to show liquid steel but this is definitely not it and none of their pics actually show liquid steel.

If that steel was hot enough to actually liquify you'd need welder's goggles to look at it and it's quite a skill to get anything like a good photo of it but I'm still searching when I get the time. I have seen it in person at the steelworks but my word on it wouldn't be sufficient now would it?

Here's a pic of molten copper at the approx max temperature of the WTC rubble fires for an idea of the incandescence at a temperature (~1100C) far less than where steel melts (>1500C)

excellent photos.
Just curious but do you have data as to how much copper was in the WTC's?

Originally posted by jfj123

Just curious but do you have data as to how much copper was in the WTC's?

There would have to be 100s of tons of it just in the onsite plumbing alone.

Originally posted by Pilgrum

Originally posted by jfj123

Just curious but do you have data as to how much copper was in the WTC's?

There would have to be 100s of tons of it just in the onsite plumbing alone.

That was what I was getting at. I was wondering if the piping was cast iron, galvanized or copper? If most of the plumbing was copper, then we have some decent evidence that the red hot metal in the rubble could be that melted copper.

As example of how easy it is to melt copper; as a child, I used to go camping with my parents into upper michigan, specifically Copper Harbor. I would take my metal detector to old, closed mine sites and would find copper ore. I would then put it into a metal container and work up a good wood camp fire and melt the copper out of the crushed ore and had nice little chunks of copper. If a 10 year old can melt copper in a camp fire.......well you see my point

Originally posted by jfj123
Hopefully you didn't take my request as an insult. I was just wondering if you had a more neutral site I could read that doesn't have anything but the truth to gain from their site.

english.peopledaily.com.cn...

Professor Shi Yongjiu, director of civil engineering department of Qinghua University and an expert on steel structure, guesses that the lower part of the WTC twin towers may got seriously damaged.

According to steel structure's mechanical nature, the towers shouldn't collapse as late as an hour later after the planes slammed into. What's more, it should be in a way to topple over gradually instead of crashing down as seen in videotapes. It looks more like a directional blast in doing the job of destruction, so he feels that huge damages must have been done at the lower part of the towers.

As seen on TV, the big fire, climbing higher and higher, is still more than 300 meters away from the base of the towers, not big enough to destroy the steels of the lower part.

He was surprised that a 40-storied supportive building beside the towers should collapse 6 hours later, for at that time the blast force by main towers should have been lost for a long time.

Professor Shi's conjecture coincides with a running rumor in the US that terrorists had planted explosives in advance and set them off on the sly after the airplane crash, so soon collapsed the twin towers.

Originally posted by jfj123
You're getting what you're giving. I have been VERY nice to you yet you have attacked me. Once again I must remind you that the ONLY reason I started this thread was a favor to you. .

1. I treat people the way they treat me. Specially when getting ganged up on by people who insult me just because i do not agree with them.

2. I did not ask for or want this thread started.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by jfj123
You're getting what you're giving. I have been VERY nice to you yet you have attacked me. Once again I must remind you that the ONLY reason I started this thread was a favor to you. .

2. I did not ask for or want this thread started.

You specifically mentioned in another thread that somebody should start a thread that asked what evidence would make you BELIEVE in a conspiracy. I suggested you start one and I would participate. You brought it up again in another thread so I thought I'd help you out and do it for you, thinking maybe you either were not sure how to or were too busy to.
JUST TRYING TO HELP
YOU'RE WELCOME

And for someone who didn't want this thread started, you sure are participating in it, aren't you ??? As a matter of fact, when I posted in that other thread, letting you know I started this thread, you were the 5th poster on this thread. I posted the first 2 posts which means that you were the forth individual poster to start getting your opinion out. So once again, for someone who didn't want this thread started, you've been here since the BEGINNING OF THE VERY FIRST PAGE. Here's your first post.

Registered: 10-7-2005
Location: New Oxford, PA

Mood:
Member was on ATS
21 minutes ago.

ATS Points: 12991
BTS Points: 225

posted on 16-3-2008 @ 12:25 PM

Originally posted by jfj123
What evidence would make you believe that the United States government was directly involved in planning and carrying out 9/11?


Well i do not have evidence (yet) of the governemnt being directly involved but i have aleady posted evidnece that they had lots of warnings and could have stopped it.

Also the government should release videos, photos, reports and evidence so it does not appear that they are covering up.

Originally posted by jfj123
You specifically mentioned in another thread that somebody should start a thread that asked what evidence would make you BELIEVE in a conspiracy.

Simple question,
Did i ask you to start this thread, YES or NO?

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by jfj123
You specifically mentioned in another thread that somebody should start a thread that asked what evidence would make you BELIEVE in a conspiracy.

Simple question,
Did i ask you to start this thread, YES or NO?

You did not specifically ask me but made a general request to anyone. Asking that someone should start the thread. Since I am someone, I started the thread. So yes, as part of the other threads general population, you did ask me to start the thread. The answer to your question is YES.

Did I ask you to be rude and obnoxious?
YES or NO ?





[edit on 31-5-2008 by jfj123]

Originally posted by jfj123
Did I ask you to be rude and obnoxious?
YES or NO ?

Yes,when you and the rest of the believers gang up and repeat the same thing, or lie about me and insult me. I have been called names and insulted since the first day i came into the forum just becasue i do not believe the official story.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Yes,when you and the rest of the believers gang up and repeat the same thing, or lie about me and insult me.

repeat the same thing?


pot - kettle


discuss....

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by jfj123
Did I ask you to be rude and obnoxious?
YES or NO ?

Yes,when you and the rest of the believers gang up and repeat the same thing, or lie about me and insult me. I have been called names and insulted since the first day i came into the forum just becasue i do not believe the official story.

You insult people as a matter of habit. I've gone out of my way to be nice to you yet you've insulted me. So what do you expect. It has NOTHING to do with the fact that you do not believe what you call "the official story", it's your attitude that is the problem. I have disagreed with many people in many forums but done so politely UNTIL they start personal attacks. Don't expect me or anyone else to be polite to you if you attack first. You do this in every thread I've posted in so it's obvious the problem is with your social skills and not with EVERYONE else on ATS. Think about it.....Do you really think it's everyone else here that has the problem or is it more likely that the problem is you???????

[edit on 31-5-2008 by jfj123]

Originally posted by jfj123
Don't expect me or anyone else to be polite to you if you attack first.

Do i need to show how i was attacked first when coming to this forum in 2005.

I have had to put up with attacks and insults all that time, so i now i treat people and groups like the believers they way they treat me.

So you need to let me know if you are with the believers or not. If you are you will be considered 1 of them.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
I have had to put up with attacks and insults all that time, so i now i treat people and groups like the believers they way they treat me.

So you need to let me know if you are with the believers or not. If you are you will be considered 1 of them.

....so much for trying to have an adult conversation then. Anyone that challenges your views you will resort to name calling then?

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by jfj123
Don't expect me or anyone else to be polite to you if you attack first.

Do i need to show how i was attacked first when coming to this forum in 2005.

I am not responsible for that. I wasn't even a member then so don't take that out on me. We're talking about this thread and this thread only and if ATS is soooooo bad, why not leave.

I have had to put up with attacks and insults all that time, so i now i treat people and groups like the believers they way they treat me.

Like I've said, initially I treated you very respectfully and you did not reciprocate. You get what you give.

So you need to let me know if you are with the believers or not. If you are you will be considered 1 of them.

So you're going to lump me into a category of people that have insulted you regardless of whether or not I have to make me fair game. Well that sounds like someone with an open mind and only searching for the truth ??? That's like saying all black people are criminals. What does that make you?

Originally posted by Disclosed
Anyone that challenges your views you will resort to name calling then? :

Well that seems to be the way you guys want it, since it started from you.

Originally posted by jfj123
So you're going to lump me into a category of people that have insulted you regardless of whether or not I have to make me fair game.

Well if you do not say anything to others about the attacks and insults only me, that tells me you must be on thier side.