Chinese Security Forces Swarm Tibet

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posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 07:30 PM
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reply to post by biggie smalls
 


coming from Europe back in China, and travelled to most continents of the world, I do agree with you that the media is often biased and controlled all over the world, whereever you are.

For example:

Shakya said Beijing must be stunned by the Lhasa riots because Tibet, under Zhang's firm hand, was thought to be pacified. In 2006, China opened the world's highest railroad, which cost $4.1 billion and traverses the Tibetan plateau to connect isolated Lhasa with the rest of the country. Beijing described the railroad as a vital tool in developing the Tibetan economy, the poorest in China.


First get back to the Riot crackdown. Most of the rioters are NOT the peaceful monks who despise violence, but unemployed and probably low educated young guys. All these unemployed went to the autonomy province's capital of lahsa in the hope of a better economic future, but the economy in that area is only so-so, no real developments yet. How many of these unemployed guys were building up frustrations and blaming everyone and everything except for themselves not finishing school or go to the university? Or leaving an undeveloped place to where there is a huge labour shortage? (If you are hundreds of km away from your hometown anyhow, why not add another thousand or two?) The frustrations can damage someone's mind especially if he sees how many "wealthy" tourists from abroad or the East are coming, or when they see "well-run" shops by small business owners.

So how should the (local and central) government should deal with these social problems? Since everyone know that there will be no way for Tibet to get independent and also not being proposed by the Dalai lama, then the only way is to improve the local economy and develop the area. This is also why the central authorities decided to spend billions in building the highest railroad connecting this part of China to the more developed parts.

Unfortunately for these frustrated unemployed young men they are diluted and impatient. They start to see some development, but it is never fast enough for them. So when they see some peaceful monks and nuns start to protest their adrenaline was pouring into their blood. While the monks & nuns see it as a peaceful way to get more autonomy, these young men see an opportunity to take advantage of the situation. Businesses and business men were therefore burned to the ground and tragically alive. The local and central authorities can not let these violence happen and are forced to use force to take down these out-of-control Rioters to prevent more innocent civilians from being hurt and killed.

Yet there are reporters writing:

But many Tibetans regard the railroad as a threat. China has poured money into Tibet in hopes that economic development would dilute Tibet's religious fervor and win over a younger generation. For many Tibetan families, life has improved; trade and tourism are also rising. But Beijing has also encouraged huge numbers of Chinese migrants and traders whose presence has diluted the Tibetan majority.


See my point is, with the same information anyone can interpret it very differently. I say China well done, you cracked down a violent riot decisively, swiftly and fiercely, because this is to show these uneducated young people what the consequences are if you BREAK the laws. Other people will say, China is evil, you are abusing human rights etc.

This is my last post regarding this topic, because it really does not make sense to continue posting if certain people (hey BB, not pointing at you) will not chance their mindsets anyhow, and I believe I have already said everything what I needed to say, no need to continuously repeating myself.




posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 07:52 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


Surprising, this is a more mannered and calm post, so I will only reply to this one, not on Tibet, but on the supposed Child labour abuses.


The exact number of child labors working in China is still unknown. China's repressive political system does not allow this information acquired directly from China, there are no Chinese non-governmental organizations (NGOs) active in this area, and foreign NGOs do not have access. Therefore, it is impossible to judge how strictly the Chinese Government enforces child labor laws or to determine the efforts of non-governmental organizations to address child labor in China (China, par.1).


Herewith again, I invite any people interested to come to China and pay some visits to some factories and see if you can find a child labour working.

The Chinese labour law forbids Child labour, but lack the resources to enforce it for 100%, especially if these poor families decided to send their own kids to work by giving up a proper education. Education is for anyone in China affordable, even for the lowest income. Minimum wage is RMB 780 per month for 8 hours a day working, 5 days a week, but since most factories are paying more and include "secondary benefits" like dorms and food, the total costs is about RMB 1200-1500 per month for one worker in China. It sounds not much, but considered the Purchasing Power Parity, this is actually a quite good salary. Factory workers are earning much more than the even poorer farmers. Most farmers are actually earning enough to buy the basics and send their childrens (yes no one-kid-policy for farmers) to school, unfortunately, some of these farmers and parents see their neighbours who gave up the farming job and started working in a factory. This messed up some of these poor farmer's mindsets and decided 'hey I can also earn that much and actually even more by working with my kid together!'. That's why you will see childrens dropping out of schools to work in the factories. Very often they use FAKE ID cards to say they are already 18. Some factories are being cheated on, others close up one eye. However, the best is that most of the factories do not dare to employ under-age workers anymore. The penalties are too severe, and personally I already know at least 2 factories which went bankrupt because of the penalties and lawsuit compensations.

My conclusions: Well China is NOT perfect, and IS a DEVELOPING (NOT Developed) country, which gradually is moving towards the right direction. It takes time to fully develop a country with 1.3+ (some would say much more than this figure) billion people. But if you one day decide to come over to China, and do talk with the local people openly, then one day you might think differently about why a strong government is needed to enfore a peaceful stable gradual growth of the economy and development of the total society.



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by IchiNiSan
 


My dilema here is that all of what I have studied concerning china and the information that has come from china (from external sources), and of course the Chinese friends that I have say something other than what you convey here. I have no doubt that the average chinese person is hard working, raises their families to be healthy and embraces the same desires for a happy life that most of the world does. But the abuses I know to exhist in china and to a greater extent in Tibet compell me to speak out.

I hope the rest of your time on ATS can be a bit more pleasant.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by Witness2008]



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


Ok, previously you had given me the impression that you simply hated all Chinese people for the murders of Tibetans by a relatively very small group of corrupted government officials. That really angered me because of the pure prejudice such thoughtless judgment would show. However, I am glad that at least you do not despise every Chinese, meaning so many innocents, but just the guilty few. I highly doubt all of the almost 1.4 billion Chinese killed Tibetan monks or had the intention of murdering random Tibetans.

But I do believe some serious corruption is involved, but which government in this world of humans doesn't contain some form of corruption? For one reason or another, we were just made like this: to be vulnerable to corruption and abuse of power.

It is very difficult for a country to have to lose a piece of itself. Can you imagine Hawaii and California suddenly declaring independence? So many Americans are related by blood to Californians and Hawaiians that a declaration of independence would certainly be opposed by the general public. Can you imagine your father and brother suddenly becoming a part of another country? Also, losing a piece of the country means that the piece would almost certainly never be reunited in any near future. Also, it would mean losing territory, resources, and cause a very large negative emotional impact.

It's not a simple matter of just "let's separate these two countries". This is an irreversible action with unknown consequences that could very well be avoided by negotiating over something as small as a simple misunderstanding or cultural difference which was the initial ignition for all this mess.

Boycotting the Olympics would be like calling off football season for four years. No, I do not think canceling an international game will end this political ordeal. I assure you a more direct approach would be much more effective.

~Greg

Edit: Typo

[edit on 17-3-2008 by morgul]



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 09:01 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


I love these forums =).

For some people, debate is almost never pleasant. But for me, I like how it requires a bit of logical thinking and reasoning and I respect my opponents as long as they use logical processes to reach their counter-conclusions.

~Greg



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 09:52 PM
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reply to post by morgul
 


The road block to a happier Tibet and China is your government. They can not hide from the whole world what is happening in Tibet. It seems to me if your government simply backed off and began to respect the autonomy of the Tibetans I beleive a peace could be struck. We all know that the Han population is rooted within Tibet and I know of no one that has suggested that they all be expelled, however allowing the native Tibetans self rule must happen. If Tibetans belong to the Chinese family why does your government treat them so badly? I know that you are unable to see many of the things that the rest of the world has seen but Tibetans are treated as less than second class citizens, and the brutallity that Tibetan women must endure breaks my heart. Then on a post today I see the many dead bodies of young Tibetan men and women. I believe the Tibetan people have been pushed into a very bad corner where they had to strike back.

I do not advocate violence and hate that my own government inflicts it in the middle east, but given what I know of the conditions that Tibetans must live under I can understand it in this case. Native Americans fought for their survival, the atrocities committed against them are now being commited against Tibetans. There is a better way and your government must realize that because the world is watching. Native Americans now abide their own autonomy and so too can the Tibetans.



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


i see what you said was just somehow murdering, holocausting or something like this. i just wonder who on earth is the murder and perpetrator? all those deaths in the riot are innocent ppl, they are just some employee and small shop owners.

when i heard that one man's 18 years sister and his old grangdpa are burned to death , i really burst into tears. what wrong-doings they have? can all those protestors in your America kill and burn freely? your hypocrital face really annoys me.

how do you know all the tibetans want to separate from China? have you ever been the tibet? every year there are millions of foreigner traveling to Tibet, even someone lives there for a long time. they can tell you the truth.

when you talk about the invasion of tibet, do you know that before the liberation of tibet, most of the tibet are slaves. the liberation of tibet are alos the tibetans' own willing. the central government of China has the undisputable right to exert the authority over Tibet even before the Communist Party took to the office. it is a long long history that can be traced back to Tang dynasty. it is you or chinese ourselve who really know about the history?.

Dalai Lama is only one of the religious leaders in Tibet, not the only one. he even is not a governor of Tibet, do you realize this?. the freedom of Tibetans has been realized since the new China was founded. as for the cultural genocide, it is really nonsense. all the process of modernization will inevitalbly lose some cultrual color just like nowdays indians in USA. do you think the tibetans should live in the primitively cultural circumstance and suffer the poverty?.

the riot must has its specific background behind the simple surface. some rioter even hurt themselves then show the wound to the foreign reporters to win some compassion. the purpose is worthy of no argument.

as far as the boycotting olympic or chinese goods is concerned, you can do everything you want. chinese never worry about such things. it is kind of double-edged sword, no beneficiary in this deal. i just take it easy. if your government really sticks to such stupid actions, chinese will never be absent of the game.

let it be!



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 10:16 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


No, you misunderstand. I really am of American descent, although I have lived in China before.

But please, I ask you to reconsider the peacefulness of these so-called Tibetan monks:

youtube.com...

That is the video which our very own government has censored but is being broadcast on Chinese television (CCTV). The poor guy on the bike is a Chinese man, dazed at the sudden attack by the Tibetans. In an extended video clip when the riot really began to escalate, they burned his bike.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by morgul]



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 10:48 PM
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I found some brief news from the Gaurdian.

video.google.com...





[edit on 17-3-2008 by Witness2008]



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 11:20 PM
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reply to post by morgul
 


Well it was deplorable for them to do that.
If the video depicts as you claim.
But that doesn't change the fact they were invaded and it stands to reason that they would be rather pissed off about that.
I mean. Imagine if America invaded China.
You'd want to kill all Americans. You can't deny it.
It's human nature.
Especially if America invaded you and started moving their people into your home.



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 11:36 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


Right, so this is like a two-way propaganda thing. China shows frightening images of rioting Tibetans and is trying to block out other videos while the U.S. media shows the Tibetan rioters being beaten back by Chinese police officers and censors the Tibetans attacking the Chinese. I have not seen one news report on our national television (meaning U.S. television) that has shown the Tibetans assaulting random Chinese civilians and vice versa for Chinese television.

So China is trying to maintain its international status as a peaceful nation while the U.S. is trying to taint that image--I mean really, after watching those very convincing news reports on CNN, I'm almost believing said evil of Chinese myself.

And again, please stop saying "your government" because I really am not Chinese. Not that it matters, but I'm actually part European and was born and bred here, in the state of Connecticut. I don't get why you don't want to believe that but I'm not sure of what else I can say to convince you so just take my word for it or don't.

And if it sounds like I hate America, I actually don't. But I really despise some of the people that run this country. Their very faces just screams "deception" and "corruption", thought I won't mention who these people are (one of em isn't so hard to guess).

~Greg



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 11:53 PM
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US is getting set to 'stage' a war with China....

Yeah yeah I know... but when it happens remember where you heard it first..




posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 12:02 AM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


Don't tell me you've found a picture of structures in Tibet?


Seriously, what is your take on this. I think you're fairly reasonable person. Do you see this from one side or the other, or do you see it as power groups on both sides doing what they have always done in human affairs?



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 01:41 AM
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reply to post by IchiNiSan
 


You are seriously deluded in equating wearing a t-shirt with a photo
of the Dalai Lama - a Nobel Peace Prize winner to wearing a t-shirt
with Bin Laden. You lose the debate because that is so stupid it
is laughable.
Just going to a temple doesn't make you Buddhist you have to
practice in daily life. That means non-violence.
The Chinese soldiers who hurt non-violent Tibetan monks do not
deserve respect. They are cowards. Any nations warrior soldier
will tell you that. You are so nationalistic that you are blind to
the atrocities of your own country. You are blind to the true teachings
of the Buddha. Buddha teaches that NOT causing sentient beings to
suffer is the most important teaching. Chinese soldiers who hurt
non-violent protesters are causing unnecessary suffering to peaceful
protesters. All this while you sit on your hands with wrong views
according to the Great Compassionate Buddha. You have learned
nothing-you lack wisdom, you lack compassion-you refuse to do
your Buddhist duty and help others when you can. It's your country
and you neglect your Buddhist duty. You neglect your human duty.
You are a disgrace to the human race. Wake up and help the innocent!
Protect the non-violent and speak up to your fellow countrymen.
Are you a man or a coward??

Everyone remembers Gandhi no one remembers the English soldiers
who at first hurt non-violent Indian protesters.
This is how the world works.
The Chinese politicians do not understand this basic point.

Such blindness deserves harsh wrathfulness. Even the Buddha has
said this.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 02:53 AM
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reply to post by GoldenGalaxy
 


non-violent protesters???? peaceful protesters.??? are you kidding?

who are innocent? THOSE DEATH OF SMALL SHOP OWNERS AND PEDESTRIANS. those so-called "monks" are hooligans in essence just with a clothe of monk robe. they are wolves with lamb skin!

since you have been brainwashed to such a extent, i have no more to correct you. many soldiers was wounded severely by gangster's knives and now lying in the hospital just because they were ordered not to shoot any one bullet so as not to give any excuses for your hypocritical foreigners to fabricate appalling news.

real tibet monks will never do such things.
if such case take place in USA, the death must not be those ordinary ppl and soldiers but those gangsters i bet.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 02:55 AM
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Originally posted by NGC2736
Don't tell me you've found a picture of structures in Tibet?


Oh Ye of Little Faith
But of course I have found 'structures' in Tibet


One of my best actually


The "Dial Home Device"



An Introduction to
The Zhang Zhung Kingdom
Archaeological Discoveries of Ancient Tibet
on the High Plateau

www.zhangzhung.org...

The Chinese have been rampaging Tibet for its Ancient Secrets and the scrolls hidden in caves...

There are a great many things you do not know Grasshopper...

(Well you did ASK
)




Seriously, what is your take on this. I think you're fairly reasonable person. Do you see this from one side or the other, or do you see it as power groups on both sides doing what they have always done in human affairs?


But seriously... I have to study this some more... the timing of this 'incidence' is weird... especially in light of this announcement by Tibetans a few years back...

Remote viewing Tibetan monks see Extra Terrestrial powers saving the World from destroying itself in 2012

www.thelivingmoon.com...

I will have to contact some sources and see what the Dalai Lama's real take on this is.... but you can check for press releases here...

www.dalailama.com...

I also have a very strong contact in Australia with heavy ties to China...

I will get back to you



[edit on 18-3-2008 by zorgon]



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 03:27 AM
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The Canadian Tibetan Committee, the other home of the Dalai Lama while in exile... posts this list of actions.... I am sure there is a similar page in the US and the UK

www.tibet.ca...

[edit on 18-3-2008 by zorgon]



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 04:01 AM
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To the Chinese people posting in this thread: WELCOME!

I'm interested in what you say. AND everyone else, too. I've starred a
lot of posts here, and wish to thank you all, for good, civil debate!

I'm been ashamed of authorities cracking down on protesters since
watching my own gov. do it during Vietnam. Even as a child, it sickened
me. But i remain faithful to my country.

I checked the profiles of the persons posting from China, to learn a
little about you, but there was nothing! ? Care to share?



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 05:35 AM
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reply to post by GoldenGalaxy
 


Just donning the cape of a monk does not make you peaceful, especially when you start a murdering mob, throw rocks at people, push someone off a motorcycle (then burn it), and even kill innocents with weapons. Even if the videos are being used as propaganda, they are real and really do show this happening.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 06:36 AM
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I doubt anyone will read this in amongst the mass of emotional "free-Tibet" cries, but I'll write it anyway.

There appears to be a misconception that Tibet is some sort of sovereign country that was "conquered" in 1950 by China. This is not entirely true.

Firstly, the Tibetans and "Chinese" (this is ambiguous as China has many diverse ethnic groups) are ethnically the same people, the only difference being the language, which resulted when lowland Chinese settled into communities and farmed, whereas the Tibetans remained nomadic.

Secondly, since the 7th Century, Tibet has been intertwined into Chinese culture. One Tibetan emperor even married a Chinese Princess, then subsequently went on the rampage around China, conquering Qinghai and Gansu until they were defeated by Chinese forces at Kashgar.

Throughout history, the various regions now known as China, including Tibet and Mongolia, have been at each others throats and ruling over each other in equal measure. The Tibetans even received Chinese assistance in driving off a Nepalese invasion in the 1700's.

As it stands now, after British interference in the region, owing to the "Great Game" with Imperial Russia, they signed a treaty (Anglo-Chinese Convention) with the Chinese emperor recognising the Chinese right to prevent foreign powers interferring in Tibet. Also, as per the Anglo-Russian Convention, the UK also recognised China's authority over Tibet as a region.

It is quite well laid down in international Law that China has quite a good claim over the region of Tibet, yet Western ignorance of the actual History clouds everyone's perceptions.

Read a Brief History of Tibet and China

Certainly China has more rights over Tibet than many Western nations could claim about some of their possessions.





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