Debt Serfdom comes to America

reply to post by pacificwind

My point was - is - and remains - that the "poor" not only do not pay net taxes, but they get money directly from the government in the form of things like the EITC. If you deny this you are simply denying reality...If you wish to continue your class warfare, you will have to choose another line of attack if you are actually in search of the truth. Because the truth is the poor don't pay taxes...Case closed.

I have already proven you wrong, yet you decide to try to come up with some economic mumbo-jumbo doublespeak to try to get around the facts, while claiming that I am somehow trying to be deceptive.

What you are doing are looking at taxes paid and not net taxes. This is intentionally deceptive on your part.

Once again, I will post the proof, since you have failed to comprehend a simple truth when it is right there in black and white.

Single person earns $10,294. This figure is exactly the poverty threshold which was defined by the U.S. Census Bureau in 2006. This year, that amount would be taxed by the Federal government in the amount of $117.

These figures show tax liability after all allowable deductions, credits, and exemptions.

So chew on that for a while LightinDarkness, oops, I mean pacificwinded.

reply to post by pacificwind

...2 full time jobs, while in school, with two majors and a minor.

Either you are lieing, or you live on a planet that has more than twenty-four hours in a day. Two full time jobs is sixteen hours in a day. When I was going to school part-time, I was still in class for another four hours a day. Then there is the study time required to maintain a descent GPA, especially if you are relying on merit-based funding.

So this means that you had four hours, at the most, to sleep, eat, shop for groceries, pay your bills, travel to and from the different jobs and school, but wait. You didn't actually even have those four hours though.

...but because I had worked part-time internships that were related to my field throughout graduate school (in addition to my other jobs).

Two full-time jobs, 16 hours per day. Another 4 hours per day for your internships, and no more than another 4 hours per day spent in class for your two majors and a minor.

You are a liar.



[edit on 3/17/0808 by jackinthebox]

Originally posted by pacificwind
As per usual, the post gang on here goes nuts whenever someone doesn't agree with them. Apparently, now telling me I'm someone else. Uh-huh. Sure.

But I understand. It is so much easier to throw out insane red herrings like this than actually talk about the issues at hand. And if two people apparently don't agree with your group think, they must be the same person!

Could it be they accuse you of this because it's true!!!I'd check your u2u's pacificwind, I believe some one wants to talk to you.

Have fun with your post gang, children

[edit on 16-3-2008 by pacificwind]

Please refrain from making unfounded accusations against members. If you have a problem, use the complaint feature to notify staff.

A man can be free, even if he has a job.
A man can be free, even if he pays taxes.
A man can be free, even if he is poor.

A man cannot be free, and is not free if the majority of his labor is siphoned off to the benefit of others, and not his own self and family.

It is not the dollar which imprisions, it is a little magic trick called compound interest.

Take a penny and double it 26 times and you have three hundered and thrity five thousand five hundred and forty four dollars and change.

Here is a formula for cultural warefare agains the interest slavers.

Pay off your credit cards and have the discipline not to ever pay interest on them.

With the money you save from the credit card in the next couple of years, buy your next car with cash. Buy a used one if you don't have enough for a new one with cash. With the money you save on the car, buy your next car new for cash.

Pay off your mortgage with double payments, a 30 year mortgate can be paid off in about 5 years this way, since three quarters is compound interest.

My first house cost 120k by paying it off 5 years I paid only 20k in interest.

The difference to me was about 300k in savings over my lifetime. That is more than a lot of folks get to retire with.

Do you want to snap the leash on your old masters?

Withdraw any savings you have in savings accounts and put them in other types of accounts or investments. The amount of money that can be loaned by the banks and written into existance by the government is controlled by how much is onhand in savings. 1 dollar in savings withdrawn drys up 9 dollars in loan money.

If we all did this together we could show the powers that be that we are free men. Make them play nice, or break them. The people wil remain when the last bank is busted, and the politicians gone to some paradise island in retreat.

reply to post by RedGolem


Changes definitely need to occur. The money system simply needs to go back to the way it was before it was all given to "The Fed" and be backed by gold and printed by the Govt. -- and this country was founded as a Republic (basically do as you please as long as you are not infringing on others)... quickly turned to a Democracy (majority rule -- ugh)... and on the fast track to a Dictatorship. That's as I understand it in a nutshell.

But, alas... will 'we' wake up and do something about it in time?

reply to post by pacificwind


You got self-righteous hatred from my post??? There was nothing self-righteous or hateful in my post. I think you are projecting here...

Regarding your statement about you not having been poor - there were others beside you that I was addressing. Go back and read my post and you will see it.



[edit on 18/3/08 by forestlady]

When the Federal Reserve asks for the interest to be paid back, how will that be accomplished?

Debt does not exist. Debt is manufactured. Humans create it.

I am no big union supporter, but as the labor unions are disappearing, big business is going back to the model they used before big labor. Hire cheap labor and ignore safety rules if possible.

Reference the meat packing industry. American workers pushed out and replace with illegal workers at a cheaper wages and they threw the safety rules out the window because they knew the illegal workers would not complain.

Two days in a tube in underground I saw this article on the font page.
I don't read or buy them but this caught my eyes. Who knows about J.P.Morgan influence on causing great depression and market collapse in 1920's will se the pattern here too. He, Rockefeller and Rothschild orchestrated wall street crush just like the one that is looming now over our heads and pulled out of the market few weeks before. How, if they didn't have knowledge about it just like unsuspecting banks and People?
Morgan personally destroyed or bought over 3.000 smaler banks over the years. Rockefeller and Morgan are printing US dollars ever since. Federal Bank is as federal as a Federal Express.
Read this now and tell me how sad and obvious you People think this is.
Usually we say, you have to read between the lines but this is face on with no hiding. They are destroying everything you built.
Your mortgages are rip off and your houses are being repossessed as we speak in thousands every hour!!!

img291.imageshack.us...

Time is coming

[edit on 19-3-2008 by Apolon]

True American History (Winston Shrout Seminar)
17 min 7 sec - Feb 18, 2008 -Unlisted

video.google.com...

I recall the Articles of Confederation assumed debt of the East India Company.
Do not know if this is so stated in the Articles but this is not my area
of any expertise but we'll follow along with the story .

The Taxation from the King was involved in the American Revolution and
apparently that ended but the debt for George Washington's furniture didn't
go away.


1776 was Independence Day

1) Northern lands security
The Constitution of the United States must have been in 1789.
Some how Winston says debt was transfered to this government.
I don't see any papers on this but it must be individual debts because
we needed more furniture.

Some International Law states that loans must be paid in 70 years.

Then some international bean counter said due date 1859 is here with no
closure. This being many years past 1815 and Waterloo when the
London stock market fell into Rothschild hands.

2)Southern lands security
The Federal Government in 1860 negotiates an new international
loan, as the story goes but this must be some accountants secret
financial deal to bail out with unknown paper work as far as I can tell.

In any case in 1871 the US and US Corp is something of another
financial secret which extends some international debt another 70 years.

1903 has European bankers evaluating our minimum payments falling
short of the 1929 due date and 1913 Federal Reserve Act written up
and which by International Law becomes legal if no objection is made.

So, there is no need of action on part of the US, just operate the Act
provisions.

3)People are the secrity
In 1929 International Law, and this sounds like some antiquated British
Law of the 1600s and earlier, as Winston states Anglican Law states
if a debtor cannot pay he must work under slavery to the owner of
the debt.

1933 US goes off the Gold standard.


Slavery period ends 1999
Last of a series of 70 years periods says the debt is paid off by the
slavery period. One caveat being the slave must declare being out of
the slavery. So Winston declares himself out of slavery but I think
he has to find this International Law Center and tell them to duly
recorded his outing.

Gee it must be true to those that believe in international law,
this is too elitist.
And what did Bush and his buddies due to us now that we were free
in 1999.
That was our only chance.

I'm not going to tell a sob story but I feel there are a few points that need to be adressed. Firstly is the fact that simply chosing to live debt free and getting a better job is much easier said than done. These days, if you have a job that pays enough for you to pay your bills you should consider yourself very lucky. The economy is so poor these days because the job market frankly sucks. There are many mid level income jobs but there is a vastly larger number of people qualified for these jobs. Couple that with many company's employment policies and you're lucky to even get an interview. There are many more lower income jobs but there is an even greater number of people "qualified" for those jobs, plenty of people who are happy enough to get paid that they won't complain about not getting overtime or holiday pay despite the law requiring it. (depending on your state).

Secondly, I'd like to adress the fact that it is no small feat to quit one job and get another. Think of it like this, I've read (don't qoute me) that the average time people spend between jobs is about 6 months. Now if you're only clearing about 100-200 dollars a month after your bills and taxes you really don't have the resources to spend even one month unemployed. If you happen to be unfortunate enough to lose your job through no fault of your own then your only option is to go into debt while trying to get another job. That is, if you even find another job.

The reason we are in such a dire economic situation is because of the poor job markets. Fiftey years ago it was possible for a man to work in a factory and still support a small family. It's whats called a living wage, or in other words, getting paid enough to live on. In addition, many larger factories also owned housing and other neccesities that were made for their workers. If you head upstate (NY) to Albany many of the houses you see were built by the factory comapnies for their empployees.

However, today the bottom has been taken out of the economy. There once was three levels of jobs, low, middle and upper level jobs and incomes. These days there is little or no lower section jobs as many factories and other such skilled and unskilled labor positions have been outsourced to cheaper countries. It used to be that many people would work in the local factory while they were young and working their way up to the life they wanted. Now the best option for a young inexperienced person is to work some horrid "service industry" position at the mall or local fast food joint. These jobs are notorious for screwing over their employees. They won't pay overtime and if you work overtime they'll change your work logs. They won't follow Department of Labor regulations regarding lunch hours and off days. They promise bonuses but don't deliver, they promise medical and dental but don't deliver, they even promise college help but will never deliver.

If we look at our current economic and labor situation we find it quite obvious that a young person seeking to make a life for themselves without any sort of privaleged help is facing quite a daunting struggle. We are told that their best option is to seek higher education and earn some sort of degree that will enable them to make a living wage. However, there is no more sure way to start out deep in debt than to persue higher education, which itself is a corrupt industry. A young person these days is facing the decision of whether to persue soul crushing manual labor with little hope of advancement, persuing employment in an equally soul crushing service industry with no hope for advancement, or throwing all their chips into the gamble of higher education which comes with the promise of massive debt often reaching over $100,000. When we look at our economic situation in this light we see how much trouble we're in. We can see that we've been painted into a corner and I fail to see any plausable solution to getting ourselves out of this situation.

A country can not survive when it is raping it's own economy and offering it's own young people little options and even smaller chances for personal advancement with out the help of an economically privaleged family. I feel as though people are growing less and less tolerant of a government that demands taxes and obedience yet offers little in return. I believe that if ever there was another uprising or revolt in this country the economic and employment situation will be one of the main motivators. People want to work, they want to provide for themselves and there is nothing more satisfying than working a rewarding job that in turn offers you enough income to live comfortably on. When you stop offering people the ability to advance themsleves is when people will stop obeying.

Yes, seems that all is going by plan of the elite blue bloods are have been instructed to bring the world to its feet. In the past they had said, by bringing down America, so does the rest of the world follow. But they didn't say that England would be the ginny pig for various programs and yet we sit and watch in awe as for years England has been marched down a path heading back to surfdom as mentioned. Being that America was originally made up of those who left such a life, it does not surprise that we are marching down that path just a step or two behind England.

Nazi Germany facist dealings still seem more dominant in the goings on of the take over of America. And yes, all of this is by plan by those who no longer desire the power by money, but just desire to power to Lord over the rest of us.

Very dangerous position if the population was not so pre-occupied in survival, doped up beyond belief, and so me and stuff oriented that they will do just about anything to be promised a bunch of lies to make them feel better.

Let us hope that as things turn that enough of us will still be around to turn things around back on the elite Lords and give them a taste of the power of the people who still believe they are free.

Well said my unknown friends! It seems like it will get much worse before it gets any better, and that will have to be with massive overthrow of these blood sucking Vampires called zionist, trilateral group etc.
They don't even bother to hide behind the soft rhetorics like before. Now they spit venom openly over the airwaves because they feel invincible.
All army, banking and "judicial" systems are in their hands, but they forgot one important thing!
We outnumber them by 400-1 if not even more. You can't fight and win guerrilla war with B-2 stealth bombers and F-22's. Nor Frigate or subs.
You need People to control People and I am optimistic because I know that when brown stuff hits the fan and comes the crunch time, there will be People like you and me in masses grabbing anything we have and going after their blood for a change.
French revolution will pale in comparison to this. That will sound like a good nigh story in comparison to this upcoming events unfolding before our eyes.
For our own kids and future generations we owe them peace on Earth.
They would expect nothing less!!!
We just need to be ridden bit more till we get really pissed of and then we will rip up the tyrants.

[edit on 20-3-2008 by Apolon]

reply to post by Apolon

It seems like it will get much worse before it gets any better, and that will have to be with massive overthrow of these blood sucking Vampires called zionist, trilateral group etc.

reply to post by Apolon


Ive thought about the whole concept but to many people are convinced everything is fine. There would not need to be a cou if 40 million people marched on Washington. It not even a dem or repub thing I was trying to explain this to my uncle who thinks it is. These are the people who just dont understand and he calls me a conspiracy theorist but yet refuses to look at any of the evidence...

Same pigs who are waging a wars and enslaving us invented those stupid and meaningless expressions just to brand freethinkers idiots.
It is so easy to call someone anti-semite even they them selfs don't understand that terminology is wrong and doesn't mean Jew hater.
There are many Semitic groups and Jews are just one of them. Apparently they are not even real Semites.
Conspiracy theory is another word made to brand us as a traitors and imply that we want to overthrow the government for no reason etc..
9/11 proofs of inside state organized crime are not seen a s a proof but as another lunatics theory.
They are just expressions like political correctness which is by far the biggest crap along with hate crime law!
If a white guy stub the black guy it is by default hate crime and racial, but if black person stubs another black person that is ok. Well then, his family definitely feels better knowing he was slaughtered by another Brother and not a white guy.
That concept was invented by a state in order to even further divide a people. List of state sponsored terrorism in a white gloves goes on...



[edit on 21-3-2008 by Apolon]

from michael hudson's latest article " a global bargain"

www.counterpunch.org...

he does many interviews articles and was the economist for the short lived kucinich campaign

i would also like to say that i respect the united states and the government of this country even though they are very corrupt, every single gov't is corrupt in the world, and we just happen to be the most successful at this and in a much less forceful manner (toward our own citizens than other country's). now on to some unpleasant discussion

By 2006 a point was reached where debt service grew to exceed operating income or the ability of many homeowners to carry – especially when interest rates jumped. The Fed’s bailout idea is to lend debtors enough to pay their bankers and other creditors, subsidizing their insolvency with enough to keep current on obligations they cannot otherwise afford. The alternative is negative equity: the sale of homes, office buildings and companies pledged as collateral and sold at prices below the mortgage or loan value. Such subsidy merely buys time for the debt problem to become even more deeply engrained.

ok what else

The reality is that the existing level of debts cannot be paid. The problem is by no means confined to the bottom of the economic pyramid, but is concentrated at the top. The U.S. Government itself turns out to be the world’s largest subprime debtor. Its $2.5 trillion debt to foreign central banks – and even larger private-sector debt to other foreigners – cannot be paid, given the nation’s heavy military and trade deficits. Recognition of this political fact at the core of the international financial system has led foreign governments and investors to dump dollar-denominated bonds and stock. This has driven down the dollar’s exchange rate, raising dollarized prices for oil and other raw materials.

and foreigners funding the war

The larger the U.S. trade deficits and foreign military spending grow, the more of these dollars are turned over to foreign central banks by foreign exporters and other recipients of U.S. funds. Central banks then find themselves with little to spend their money on, except to buy U.S. Treasury securities. They have bought so many that Americans have not had to bear the cost the U.S. federal budget deficit by buying the bonds to finance it. Foreigners have bought them. In effect they have loaned the U.S. Government the dollars and foreign exchange to wage its war in the Near East – a war that most foreign voters do not support. To fund the U.S. payments deficit and federal budget deficit is to subsidize this war.

almost done

The bailout is designed to enable banks to lend money to support asset prices and preserve the market price of collateral pledged to back their mortgage loans and lending to highly leveraged companies and hedge funds. In bailing out banks to increase their loans to achieve these ends, the Fed has become an active player in a financial war to indebt real estate, labor and industry all the more.

keep going

The result is an unprecedented intrusion of Big Government, not in a socialist manner but one that uses the public purse to protect finance and property at the top of the economic pyramid. This is done by leading down a uniquely financial road to serfdom, by promoting a regime of debt peonage. Via the Federal Reserve system, the government is “solving” the ending of the Bubble Economy by providing enough loans to indebt industry and agriculture, labor and tangible capital as it borrows the money to pay debt service on loans that otherwise would fall into default.

ok that can't be good, is that all

But as noted above, the most problematic debt is foreign debt, and the major subprime international debtor is the U.S. Government. It is now indebted to foreign governments (via their central bank holdings of $2.5 trillion in dollar reserves) and to private investors (another few trillion) beyond the nation’s ability to pay, not to mention beyond its political willingness to do so. That is why foreigners no longer are accepting the dollars being thrown off by U.S. consumers, U.S. investors buying foreign enterprises, and the U.S. military extending its bases abroad.

solution?

The only way to stop this hemorrhaging is to negotiate a debt writeoff, starting with the U.S. Treasury bonds held by foreign central banks. But what does the United States have to offer? To ask foreign governments to make an economic sacrifice of this magnitude cannot be negotiated without the U.S. Government negotiating a grand global bargain. Having little quid pro quo to offer, the most promising way to get foreign countries to voluntarily give up their financial claims on the U.S. economy must include the one thing America can offer – the military dimension

hudson concludes foreign governments are viewing the u.s as a rogue destabalizing force and that in exchange for closing military bases aborad dollar denominated debt be forgiven. It should be noted that no gov't has ever paid off it's debt in full. Hudson thinks the drop off in military spending may give more capital for building infrastructure at home from which more jobs can be created

i must say i could easier see the fed backing all the reserve notes (dollars) with subprime loans, the dollar falling and being declined by other country's, and then the fed's being able to hyperinflate the dollar (to bailout the banking cancer that will effect us as long as the (mortgages keep defaulting and houses lose value) and thus devaluing the dollar so much that the bills to foreigners will be inflated away to relatively small levels. Then i could see the fed "go under" but being held up by .gov and then all the federal reserve's being consolidated into a "world wide financial central bank, with obviously the power to create money.

you may also want to read this (and minimize any cognitive dissonance)

www.nwotruth.com...

Besides artificially propping up the markets, Obama’s NIRB, as an initiation of the Rohatyn/Rudman infrastructure investment model, opens the door to the privatization of public assets. International predators and asset-strippers want to buy up public highways and impose cutthroat tolls, as they are already doing in many states. Then they run the turnpikes into the ground as cash cows while they mercilessly bilk the users. Privatization is a key goal of the Anglo-American financiers behind this scheme. Both the NIC and NIRB rely on the new darling of the markets, PPPs, known as public private partnerships. PPPs are the means by which market forces will dictate, and that is the word, the implementation of these projects. The argument is that the PPP will keep costs down, but in reality only because the private corporations, now controlling the public sector, will own the assets of what is being constructed. The PPP model is none other than the model implemented by Mussolini in his fascist corporate state

basically they state that felix rohatyn, alan goldsbee, and zbiginew brezenski stand behind obama and that he will lead america in to a corporatist private public partnership. sounds like change alright

Do not be fooled! Barak Obama’s call for National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank (NIRB) does not signal the return of the Democratic Party to the values of FDR and a revival of the Constitutional prerogative to ‘promote the general welfare’, but would rather provide more welfare for Wall Street and worse. Obama’s plan is nothing more than the direct means of instituting the Rohatyn-Rudman National Investment Corporation (NIC) plan called for in 2005, which in essence is a revival of Mussolini’s methods of corporatist control of the state in a politically correct post modern fashion..

not our buddy obama, he gives us hope and hope gives piece of mind

Sure the NIRB will create some low-wage jobs, but the PPP arrangement will make certain that organized labor does not get assertive about living wages and benefits, all the while private companies welcome a work force of illegal immigrants who will do much of the work for virtual slave wages as is already the case.

mods lets me know if their is a limit on quotes.

i believe this post is very important


[edit on 21-3-2008 by cpdaman]

[edit on 22-3-2008 by cpdaman]

reply to post by photobug


Outstanding post! THX for sharing.

Originally posted by pacificwind
The regular doom and gloom oracles on here can predict that the end is nigh all they want. It's not going to happen. A recession? Maybe, jury still isn't in, but that isn't the economic disaster so many are praying for.

Originally posted by pacificwind
It is so much easier to throw out insane red herrings like this than actually talk about the issues at hand.

Originally posted by pacificwind
In your self righteous hatred

Insane, hatred, praying for disaster. Anyone else seeing a pattern here? Disinfo alert.

reply to post by pacificwind


I agree ...I am in debt with student loans and a few credit cards, I did it to myself to I can have a better future from my education, I am working myself out of debt, and guess what....I am not whining and blaming others because of the situation I CHOSE to be in. I not for loans I could not have went to school, or fed myself while going to school, nor have had any type of social life while going to school. Too many people are trying to keep up with the jones' and going into debt just to they can live outside their means. Those people fail to realize that it will eventually catch up to them and they will never be able to work their way out. So then their lack of foresight becomes someone elses problems when they default.