The Jesus Delete.

My own opinion of this debate over Jesus is that, outside of the bible, there is just a history of Judea written by Josephus and a few other lesser works that make mention of him. Not many, but enough to make me think he actually lived. But I do not believe that he was either god on earth or the son of god. I believe that he was just a man who was a member of the Essenes order who was a prophet for god. This is much as the Muslim Qur'an says, too. I know that this is not what christians believe, and that is okay. It's all a matter of faith, as you either believe that he is the son of god or that you don't believe that he is. I am in the later category. And it is okay if people don't agree with me. I won't take away the right of others to believein what they want to believe.

I agree with what you say from a neutral point of view. There are many Christians that won't be going to Heaven. This is the double edged sword of Free Will.........just remember, whent the Rapture of born again Christians happens, there is still an opportunity through the Tribulations.


reply to post by Wally Conley

Originally posted by Neiby

The fact of the matter is that most of the old and new testaments are completely fabricated mythology. Modern secular historians pretty much agree on this. Most of the people who disagree are already believers and are therefore disinclined to disbelieve their own religion.

oh i love general statements like that. no references, not even a mention of the proof that makes this a ¨fact of the matter¨

go read a book.

Incarnated-
(and the disillusioned, or the skeptical)

The arguments or accusations of today are not original, but just rehashing of age-old (and already answered) questions.
Like I posted in the 'original sin' discussion, you're all welcome to ask me questions about specific biblical situations or examples, like 'the watchers', to name one.
[email protected]

To Deiby -
(and anyone else who's turned away from the Bible)
Searching for truth is key, but if you still doubt, you've missed the last 20 years of serious scientific discovery AND biblical research. Deiby, you might be the kind of person to benefit from these discussions, linked below. I encourage you to start with one from the beginning, Genesis, and just listen. What can it hurt, right?
www.khouse.org...

Again, please email me with any questions.
Or, if you're starting a new topic, let me know, and i'll post about what i've learned about the Bible and reality.

As an 'Atheist' I can no more deny th eexistence of Jesus as I can of Aristotle. But his claim to fame has been Bastardized over the Millenia by meglomanicas claiming divinity. Teh debate regarding is existence is moot, Irrelevant. It is the concepts and Ideals which are the 'Word' it has never been about the man. These Organized Relgions have made him an Idol- forsaking the real Philosophy. WE are the only species on the planet who comprehends the 'Gifts' We ahve been given and the only Species on th eplanet who are responsible for 'Paying It Forward". By an act of a god or just happenstance of Nature, WE Are The Stewards. Jesus, Mohommad, David are merely people who understood our Prime Directive and brought the concept to the masses. Theri Divinity is only in th efact that they GOT IT, when others were trying so hard to Deny It.

reply to post by runetang


quote:this is false in my sect so as, to say there is more than 1 G-D.

conspiracy wise: the hebrew word Eloah is singular and is translated as the word G-D by the translaters-----------while the hebrew word Elohiym is plural and is also translated as the word G-D by the translaters.

Messiah is said to be the G-D of the old covenant john 1:1-14
then it also makes sense that since Elohiym is a plural word that there are more than one members of the Elohiym,which is confirmed by genesis 1:26 then G-D said let Us make man in Our image,according to Our likeness,--------and also by genesis3:22 then the Lord G-D said,behold the man has become like one of Us

the rabbis say (Us) means angels but i can find nowhere in the scriptures where angels are equivilent to the Elohiym that they work for and were created by (ezekiel 28:13)

matter of fact the new testament says some of us shall judge angels (1 corinthians 6:2-3)do you not know that the saints will judge the world?if the world is to judged by you,why are you not competent to judge the smallest matters(now)?do you not know that we will judge angels?how much more matters of this life ?

Originally posted by purple girl
But his claim to fame has been Bastardized over the Millenia by meglomanicas claiming divinity... These Organized Relgions have made him an Idol- forsaking the real Philosophy. WE are the only species ...who comprehends the 'Gifts' we have been given and ...who are responsible for 'Paying It Forward".... WE Are The Stewards. Jesus, Mohommad, David are merely people who understood our Prime Directive and brought the concept to the masses. Theri Divinity is only in the fact that they GOT IT, when others were trying so hard to Deny It.

Purpley Girl -
Jesus said that he was God, and that the only way to redemption was through him. David didn't say that - in fact he wrote aboutJesus. Mohammed claimed divinity, but then slaughtered millions. Their writings all say different things, so if these guys all understood some unifying truth, what was it?

You said:

Originally posted by Neiby
It's called reality intruding on your mythology. Nothing more. There's no conspiracy or movement other than the forward momentum toward truth.

But God says:

2 Peter 2:1
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

You said:

The fact of the matter is that most of the old and new testaments are completely fabricated mythology. Modern secular historians pretty much agree on this. Most of the people who disagree are already believers and are therefore disinclined to disbelieve their own religion.

God says:

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

You said:

I used to be a Christian. I've been to several churches so I got a lot of experience with different doctrines and approaches. I used to attend bible studies every week. I was one of those guys who went to church on Sunday morning, Sunday evening and Wednesday evening. I went to a Christian university and studied theology and early Christian literature. On a related note, I was also a young Earth Creationist at that time.

God says:

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

You said:

Over time, my studies kept leading me away from the fundamentalist beliefs that I held. They just weren't standing up to the light of truth. Reality kept invading my space.

God says:

2 Timothy 3:7
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


You said:

I simply couldn't maintain my faith and be honest with myself at the same time, so I left the Christian faith completely.

God says:

John 10:27
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

My continued studies have done nothing to make me think I made the wrong decision. In fact, the more time goes by, the more I'm thankful that I made the right decision, the decision to stop following a myth and get on living my life in the real world.

God says:

Matthew 13:20-21
But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

And:

Proverbs 14:12
12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.


It would seem to me that you have a good case of "cognitive disidence," In that you presently bring your beliefs in line with your actions instead of the other way around. lets face it you look for the results that fit your own distorted view of God, because you either do not know him or the shame of your present lifestyle causes you to flee the light of his truth. In either case the majority will applaud you for your denial of him just as the crowds did 2000 years ago at his trial. They couldn't keep him in the grave and neither can you!

Happy Easter!

[edit on 22-3-2008 by Graystar]

Thanks for that, Graystar.

Jesus and God are being lumped together as a 'fairy tale' and the reality of Jesus as a historical man is being denied...

Yes, Jesus has been deified and symbolized by the Vatican, but no, he was not a fairy tale. He had real followers who actually knew him, from which we have the accounts of the Bible. This has been archeologically confirmed... get over it people. Stop trying to rewrite history.

The astrological symbolism wrapped around Jesus is due to oragnized religion and the Vatican. Jesus OPPOSED ROME and OPPOSED organized religion, therefore he would agree with all the atheists claiming that the Jesus of Catholicism does not exist. The real Christ had nothing to do with Catholicism or the occult symbolism which later represnted him...

MANY people confuse a real man for his deity symbol.

[edit on 23-3-2008 by NewWorldOver]

reply to post by NewWorldOver


Oh, NWO. I'm stealing this comment of yours for another thread. I'll quote you and link it to your comment here. Excellent point. Although I obviously do believe Jesus was the Son of God, I understand that part takes faith. But to deny He ever existed is nonsense. Yes, it is rewriting history.

Originally posted by AshleyD
But to deny He ever existed is nonsense. Yes, it is rewriting history.

It's historically inaccurate to claim there was no Jesus... absolutely. But people will say anything if it fits their ideology.

It's easy to claim that deities and gods do not exist... it's another thing to deny the existence of a man who's life has been historically accounted for. I challenge atheists to prove that there was no Alexander the Great. It would be just as easy to claim it was all a fairy tale.

[edit on 23-3-2008 by NewWorldOver]

NWO -
What are some examples of Catholic symbolism they have attached to Jesus?

NWO
"What are some examples of Catholic symbolism they have attached to Jesus?"
*****not sure of the question. The NWO is looking to eliminate any link to Jesus and to eventually eliminate Christianity leading to a Luciferian theology.

reply to post by tgambill


The question? I wanted to know if he was ascribing aspects of real CHristian doctrine to pagan mysticism. Conversely, my understanding is that the HRCC has been filled with a whole lot of practices taken from the 'mystery religion'.
So yes, the NWO (as the tool of Satan) is trying to confuse us, and to thwart God's plan. His motive is selfish; by preventing prophesied events from taking place, he hopes to prevent his future destruction.
Here's food for thought; why do you think people say pagan religions are the foundation for the details of Jesus' life? Coincidence? No - the attributes of the messiah have been evident from the beginning, throughout prophecy and creation itself

[edit on 24-3-2008 by wannabe]

Originally posted by Incarnated
I've noticed more and more over the past couple of years that people seem to be pushing toward a "Jesus never existed" reality, this is witnessed by such videos and theoretical theisimanic natured discussions.

I'd like to know who you think is at the center?
Why is this a drive?
Who's fault is it really?

Those who are trying to shut our eyes are those who are already blind.

reply to post by Incarnated


hello

the bible can tell you that my friend

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
It's historically inaccurate to claim there was no Jesus... absolutely. But people will say anything if it fits their ideology.

It's easy to claim that deities and gods do not exist... it's another thing to deny the existence of a man who's life has been historically accounted for. I challenge atheists to prove that there was no Alexander the Great. It would be just as easy to claim it was all a fairy tale.

[edit on 23-3-2008 by NewWorldOver]

I agree here.

I was not even going to reply at this topic as TheRedNeck & Conspiriology made great points, and ofcourse as Conspiriology says not all Christians can debate very good eg: myself.

I must add some thought to what NWOver is saying. On Discovery/History channels there is a program now where certain scientists are saying there is no proof that David & Solomon ever existed, no proof. There are a limited few (think an archaeologist and a Dr) who do not agree with the others and do believe in their existence. Still it is like they (tv) are slowly weaning it in, and imo in 10 years time it will be "fact" in most people heads that there was never a David or Solomon.

Try arguing it and you will be told "Science Proved It!" The Supreme also tells us to prove His existence, yet science fails which some "dumb" people like myself know to be true. Oh if i am going to be asked to show my proof, my answer is; I know The Trinity is real, it is a spiritual thing aka faith, and i cannot prove the feeling of freedom, love and Awesomeness i have.

I will leave this to show where God invite/tells us to prove all things.

The apostle Paul wrote in the Bible, speaking on behalf of the One who claims to have authored it, “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (I Thes. 5:21). If God wrote the Bible, and He tells you to “Prove all things,” then surely He would not make proof of His authorship of the Bible an exception. It states, “ALL things.” In other words, would God require you to prove what the Bible teaches about all other points of doctrine or practice, but not expect you to prove whether an all-powerful God stands behind its authorship, requiring you to then obey it—to adhere to its teachings? What sense would that make? God would never exempt from the need for proof (thus making them towering exceptions to this command) the questions of His own existence and His authorship of the Bible.

We must take this instruction at face value. If God says to “Prove all things,” and “Prove Me now herewith…” (Mal. 3:10), as well as “Prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (Rom. 12:2), then He means it. And if God did not make the answers to these questions provable, He is setting Himself up to be discredited—or one could conclude that He only desires simplistic, unthinking people to follow Him blindly. In other words, Christians are those who are willing to make assumptions on the very most important questions of life, and to be able to hold convictions for a lifetime that are based on mere assumption.

www.realtruth.org...

Man can try and change The Supreme's Word as much as they want so it can suit them, fit them accordingly, while doing the dirty work for someone/something evil, knowingly or unknowingly, where they deceive flesh. We are lazy, quick to follow/choose the easy road, carnal.

Sadly for the deceiver of flesh, oh and it knows this, His Word/Message will always get through to those who do not give up, FACT!





[edit on 5/28/2008 by qonone]

Hiya,

Originally posted by AshleyD
1). Claiming no historical source exists outside the Bible confirm Jesus' existence when there are, in fact, dozens that do so.

Really?
Why didn't you post this list of "dozens" of historical sources?

Why?
Because in fact there are NO contemporary historical sources which mention Jesus.

All that exists is a few early writers who repeat Christian BELIEFS about Jesus - long after the alleged events.

Not one single ancient writer actually met any Jesus ever.

Jesus himself left no mark in history.
BELIEF in Jesus did.


Iasion

Hiya,

Originally posted by darkelf
There are other historic accounts of Jesus, if you wish to disregard Biblical text. Flavius Josephus was a first century Jewish historian who wrote volumes. In chapter three of volume 18 of “Antiquities of the Jews” he writes:

JOSEPHUS (c.96CE)

The famous Testamonium Flavianum (the T.F.) in the Antiquities of the Jews is considered probably the best evidence for Jesus, yet it has some serious problems :

* the T.F. as it stands uses clearly Christian phrases and names Christ as Messiah, it could not possibly have been written by the devout Jew Josephus (who remained a Jew and refused to call anyone "messiah" in his book which was partly about how false messiahs kept leading Israel astray.),

* The T.F. was not mentioned by any of the early Church fathers who reviewed Josephus.

* Origen even says Josephus does NOT call Jesus the Messiah, showing the passage was not present c.200CE.

* The T.F. first showed up in manuscripts of Eusebius, and was still absent from some manuscripts as late as 8th century.

* The other tiny passage in Josephus refers to Jesus, son of Damneus. The phrase "so-called Christ" may have been a later addition by a Christian who also mis-understood which Jesus was refered to.

An analysis of Josephus can be found here:
www.humanists.net...

In short - this passage is possibly a total forgery (or at best a corrupt form of a lost original.)
But, yes,
it COULD just be actual evidence for Jesus - late, corrupt, controversial but just POSSIBLY real historical evidence.


That's the BEST the Christians have - a corrupted passage from over 1/2 a century later.


Iasion