The Jesus Delete.

reply to post by idle_rocker

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No all you have to do is read your bible. I assumed you had read a bible, but I guess not.

As I know the bible clearly states that at the age of 13 Jesus impressed the church eldlers with his vast amounts of inner knowledge of the scriptures. Such teaching would help the *SNIP* out alot.

Why would you be conserned with his "minstery" over his teachings?

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[edit on 3/16/08 by FredT]

reply to post by Incarnated

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Christstains??? You really are a piece of work, I'm alerting the mods to your hatemongering venom.

Sorry, AshleyD, you're very wrong about this. There is ZERO incontrovertible evidence for a historical Jesus. The people who simply believe the lies they're being told are the lazy ones. The people who think reading a Josh McDowell book is sufficient research are the lazy ones. In a day or two, you could find all the evidence you need to prove to yourself that there was no historical Jesus. You'd also find plenty of proof that the New Testament stories, particularly the Gospels, are entirely fabricated. They're works of fiction written many decades after the alleged lifetime of Jesus.

And your statements in #2 above are very misleading. Perhaps this is a case of willful ignorance and sleight of hand on your part? There were a variety of similar god-man myths at that time, some of which were substantially similar to the Jesus myth. To claim otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

As Odd is this may be I think I'm going to have to agree with Ashley on this one. It is laziness. I'm not a Christian, but I spend quite a bit of time studying religion. Although there are some parallels between Jesus and Baldur the Viking redeemer, these unending lists of pagan gods that share the same histories as Jesus are absolutely false. To me it's spiteful, these claims that Jesus didn't exist. They want to eradicate someone else's faith so bad that they are willing to lie through their teeth. It really is ridiculous.

Disproving Jesus' existence seems to have become the extreme atheists jihad, and it is getting a bit tiresome. Many people are behind this movement, and it needs to stop. If you want to tear down someone's belief structure, at least do it legitimately, and without malice.... if that's even possible.

Yes, I have read the Bible. And I'm not concerned with his ministry over his teachings. His teachings ARE his ministry. The age of 13 reference is the only reference we have to any teaching he did earlier than his ministry.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but most modern secular historians believe that this was added later by supporters of the Christ myth. There is so much doubt about this passage that it hardly qualifies as incontrovertible evidence.

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[edit on 3/16/08 by FredT]

reply to post by Neiby

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Well here's the big thing. The Jews had all the time in the world to refute Christianity and more than enough motive to do so. This should have been very easy if Jesus never existed. The Jews didn't even try to refute Christianity.

False. Unless you want to weigh all evidence the same. Then we can say there is 'ZERO incontrovertible evidence' for hundreds of famous figures from antiquity. It seems like historical records and eye witness accounts are enough for others but the Christ Mythers want to travel back in a time machine before they'll believe Jesus existed.



The 'lies' are coming from the people who fabricate such bogus arguments and those who regurgitate them without ever engaging in any form of investigation of the facts and evidence.



McDowell is a good read for a starter in the study of apologetics but he typically touches only on the high points. It's nice to get your feet wet with him but to research other scholars who go more in depth. Nothing against the man but he's not the end and be all of Christian apologetic research.



You name an argument against the historical Jesus (including conspiracy theories), I'll bet you a billion I've seen it, considered it, and/or researched it.



I was just explaining this somewhat on another thread when a member accused me of having blind faith. Sorry, but no. I have spent the last decade of my life researching this stuff.



Intellectually dishonest? That's the second time I've heard that this week. At least you didn't put a hex on me like the other member did. Anyways, no. Not ignorance, not sleight of hand. Only painstaking research into other religious texts and historical documents.

If we want to pull out some very loose parallels from the Pagan Christ Myth or Hero Pattern (as in, He was a God, He lives in Heaven, He was born a human, He died, etc.) we can find some things. When we get down into the specifics? Nope.

Not to mention the Messianic prophecies that foretold Jesus precede many pagan figures He was supposedly modeled after.

Sorry but I have had this debate on ATS dozens of times in the only three months I've been here. The Historicity of Jesus, the Pagan Christ Hypothesis, Hero Pattern, Astrology Hypothesis, etc. You name it, I've debated it. It's always the same regurgitated and debunked arguments over and over again.

[edit on 3/17/2008 by AshleyD]

*sigh* well,, Ill be darned,, thank you for that post. I see this kind of thing going on too and not just about Christ but the holocaust too.

I was going to post in defense of ashley but I realize anyone saying what was said in that post, has his/her mind made up and doesn't want the facts. Especially when the lie is much easier for them to live with.

Thanks again

- Con

Will you teach me that trick? I need to learn how to walk away sometimes. Every time someone makes the claim there is no historical evidence of Jesus outside the Bible I feel compelled to cite some two dozen or so sources stating he did. Or when someone prattles off a list of supposed crucified or virgin born savior gods I can't help but correct them.

This is the first thread where I held back since the original poster is actually questioning those who deny Jesus' existence but usually I do and eventually a mod is going to accuse me of spamming if I don't knock it off.

reply to post by chromatico

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In my view there are both "CHRISTians" and "Christ Stains". At no time should anyone associate me saying "christStains" as meaning "christians".

Even the true christians are aware of christStains, but they don't address such because true christians are not busy bodies in other peoples stuff and they are in full realizitaion of the ongoing path of peurification.

Meanwhile the christStains take one bath one sunday and then nothing changes but the vestage of selfrightiousness.

Christians will be the rightious come the day of the judgement
christStains will be the self rightous.

It's addressed in the bible.

And one has good argument that the bible states the delete of jesus is because of the christStains within the religion based upon his title.

In regard to Incarnated’s opening post and statement concerning this push for the non existence of Jesus, which, I agree, has really grown in force, I personally think the greatest evidence, validating the existence of Jesus, can be found within scripture itself. For me, being a believer, this is great evidence for support, yet, to the unbelieving, perhaps not, even so, the statements made, come by way of those who did not accept nor believe Jesus was, who He said He was. The only advantage these unbelievers had over those of today, they were well aware of His existence, but denied who He was.



Here we are, arriving at close to 2000 years later, and no one has been able to overthrow Jesus or the message of The Cross, which, from reading these words, plainly indicates that Jesus and the entire Gospel Message, is indeed the work of God, not men, which some suppose. You see, even Gamaliel, though religious, yet, unbelieving, knew how to test the validity of Jesus and those who proclaimed His message. Today, if that same advice were not refuted, but seriously taken into consideration by those who are trying to eliminate Jesus, then perhaps they would understand how it is, that they have not been successful in “deleting” Jesus.


[edit on 3/17/2008 by jdposey]

reply to post by Incarnated

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I see where you are comming from here! I agree with you 100%. What also makes me sad is the christStains that battle over who has the better knowledge/understanding/essegies (SP) than the other. Or they are too concerned with their own 'born again' experience... or how MANY they themselves have converted.... Meh.. It's all a crap shoot any hoot....
Peace and Harmony through Unconditional LOVE!

Sorry I've been unable to check back until now. This is in reply to idle_rocker and Incarnated concerning Jesus' lack of writings... I'm not saying I'm CERTAIN Jesus didn't exist because he didn't write anything, but it WOULD be, simply, strange that he didn't if he was literate (and really existed). In the (alleged) 3 and 1/2 years of his ministry, how much time would it have taken for him to jot down something, ANYTHING like, say, "blessed are the peacemakers?" Even being "on the road" with his traveling ministry, it's not like he would've required a fixed table and lamp to write frigging SOMETHING.

I strongly disagree with Incarnated's assertion that, had Jesus written anything, that the words would've been ignored in favor of the paper itself being idolized. Puh-LEASE!! How horribly cynical. I think you're confusing the blatant, all-consuming idolatry of Jesus TODAY (and throughout "Christianity" which is really or effectively Constantinism) with what would have been had there been a shred of proof of his existence... And please explain how Jesus was "instructed not to write."

reply to post by Lightworth

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We don't have any writings from Socrates or Julius Caesar. Did they exist?

Julius Caesar, like Augustus, Flavius, Nero, Constantine etc. are well-documented or corroberated historical figures. We can be reasonably certain that he succession of Roman emperors is as documented or noted already. Didn't know Socrates didn't write anything, but I'm guessing we can be reasonably sure of his existence due to others' writings of his teachings AT THE TIME he was alive or soon enough after.

reply to post by Lightworth

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Same thing with Jesus. Next.

It is human nature to seek the truth. I speculated last night that Jesus must have been a large man because when he tore up the temple that had become a marketplace nobody tried to stop him. I bet he was a giant and this fact just got lost. Even if he is fictional his message lives and has great power.

reply to post by earthman4

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Indeed. Even if Jesus was fictional (of course I believe he lived), the stories about him are still "true" in that they resonate with individuals and enable them to live fulfilled lives.

reply to post by earthman4

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On the other hand, people may have just been too shocked. It might have been like Gandhi going on a rampage.