Original Sin

I believe humans were first like robots but then the tree of life gave them emotion so they had to be banned from heaven because emotions cant intertwine in heaven. the concept of heaven is the limitation of free will but emotion proceeds free will so humans having free will is a crazy idea its what satan has and look what he has done with it. I don't know how sex and reproduction is involved in all of this, why would God make humans if he didn't want them to multiply certainly everything is created in abundance. I also dont get Hell: is it satan's home world, then whats satan's punishment? and whos running the show right now could have satan won and we are oblivious to it or is this all a chess game that God and satan like to play for a couple of rounds.

reply to post by DuneKnight


Again, i really don't think punishment is involved here. Interesting about lack of emotions. Some of the eastern philosophies and religions encourage the purging of emotion as a means to obtain enlightenment. What do you mean exactly by robots? because this is how some people are describing some of the Grey ET's, entities without emotions.

emotions are what define us as humans actually it makes us believe we have a soul and that other objects dont because they dont feel like us. and since we err and at fault and God hates us for it then he hates our emotions not us as he created us. we modified ourselves through the tree of life and that mightve angered God as well as he should. emotions can be a horrible thing for a simple human to comprehend and grasp. its like humans stole an experimental drug that has side effects that make us untrue to our initial conception that God had in mind.

The genesis states they clothed themselves from the sight of god. SO! he was corporeal and walked in the garden with them in the cool of the morning. Than he has to ask questions. Doesn't sound to godly to me.

When god hears the answers to his questions, he shows a humanly trait and gets mad and wants to punish the patriarch/matriarch with (eviction) expulsion from the garden. Than we have Lilith, a much earlier version of Adam and eve. Though Lilith (no doubt thats why we have prostitutes now) was a ho and got all uppity to Adam over whose on top, god (leave us wench) just tossed her out and came up with a new angle.

The only sin is what this fabricated book of ancient thoughts chains the reader into. Why would a god be so around than, go on leave and become MIA when he is needed more than ever. And!, since the all powerful, Omnipotent one created it all, why not correct the faults before they get out of hand, than move on to whats next.

In case no one connects with the story, we are all toys for a super intelligence.

Originally posted by Annoyed
reply to post by Byrd

 

I understand what you are saying. I think what I want to know is whether or not sex has anything to do with the Original Sin, and if so, how? I had always considered Original Sin to be more about disobeyance, until I heard the discussion on this TV show.

No, it has nothing to do with Original Sin. It is the "taint" introduced into the human lineage because of disobedience. Sex is simply the mechanism for reproduction of the human race.

You may be confusing "original sin" with "the seven deadly sins" -- one of those is "lust", which has to do with sexuality. But those are simply considered to be "things that draw man away from god" rather than "original sins"



(disclaimer: I'm Wiccan, but I've read the Bible several times (cover to cover) and am familar with a number of variants of the Christian religion, including Catholicism.)

Originally posted by Annoyed
Here's a thought:

It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When using the entire name, does it imply that acquiring the knowledge of good and evil was what is referred to as the Original Sin?

No, it was eating that fruit in direct disobedience of an order. The knowledge wasn't the sin.

Also, Eve was told her punishment would be to give birth in pain, correct? That would pretty much imply that either she did not give birth prior to that decree, or that such had been painfree (I can't imagine!).

The Bible says her firstborn was concieved and delivered after the expulsion from the Garden (remember the tale of Cain and Abel?)

Originally posted by VenusOnTheHalfShell
Original sin, in my humble enlightenment, is a man made attempt of rationalizing and understanding what took place in the garden of eden; why adam and eve were forced out by their creator for doing what they were instructed not to do: eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When this "sin" took place god is quoted as saying, "indeed, man has become like one of US, knowing good and evil". An interesting comment, don't you think?

Particularly so in light of the NEXT verse:
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

So the sin is disobedience (which is interesting from a Calvinist standpoint, since everything is pre-ordained and that means the deity set things up and knew man would disobey and exactly what the consequences were.)

Some Christian sects rejected the Original Sin doctrine:
encyclopedia.edwardtbabinski.us...

Interestingly, the Jews (authors of the Old Testament) don't believe in Original Sin. The concept is apparently introduced into Christianity in the writings of Paul:
www.jewsforjudaism.com...

This could bring up the whole long argument of just how much crafting Paul did of Christianity, but I don't think that' a suitable subtopic here, and there are any number of threads on the subject in any case.

Originally posted by Sparky63
Regarding whether or not Mary had original sin:
“ . . . the Immaculate Conception is not taught explicitly in Scripture . . . The earliest Church Fathers regarded Mary as holy but not as absolutely sinless. . . . It is impossible to give a precise date when the belief was held as a matter of faith, but by the 8th or 9th century it seems to have been generally admitted. . . . ‘which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin..........
.............This belief was confirmed by Vatican II (1962-1965)..............
.........However, confirming that All men are sinners.........
Does that include Mary?...............

You have made a good point.
There is something going on here that has to do with human nature. The political nature of man.
I read a book, years ago, about the Mary lobby in the Church.
They have always been around but have over the centuries gained more and more power to advance their agenda to diefy Mary.
It is not so much a change in philosophy on the part of the church but the results of negotiations within their power base.

reply to post by jmdewey60


In many religions around the world, there are goddesses. I believe if Catholicism deifies Mary, it would be merely to imitate these other religions.

reply to post by Byrd



You could say that the fruit was some sort of life-sustaining substance that would have made man live forever as the verse says. Since evil had already entered the world in the form of fallen angels, Satan and his cohorts, it would be perverse, indeed, for someone to have to live this life forever without a chance for death (change). This would, of course, mean the verses are taken literally, which I'm not sure they are meant to be.

The "become like us" could have meant they would become as gods (the evil ones - Satan and his followers - knowing good and evil as they had learned previous to the fall. Nothing could have been more painful than for man to live a physical life forever, stuck in the disharmony of this universe as it is. If man did not know evil, his life would certainly have been much more pleasant.

I see what you're saying, Byrd. I'm just trying to throw in my thoughts here...I don't have all the answers as none of us do. But I think there's an explanation to this and will try to do more research to find an answer based on my belief system. Not that I want to coerce anyone else to believe as I do...I just think there's some good answers out there somewhere that I'm unable to put into words here without help.

I_R




[edit on 3/16/08 by idle_rocker]

reply to post by Annoyed


According to the Bible, Adam was told not to eat fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil before Eve was on the scene. It would therefore appear to have nothing to do with sex. The actual wording suggests it is more to do with 'guilt', which would require a knowledge of the difference between good and evil.

The following clarifies it further:
www.bbc.co.uk...

[edit on 16/3/08 by Myrdyn]

reply to post by idle_rocker


You need to denied ignorance and stop the none sense it seems that you seems to forget the TOs over and over again and want to stay off topic.

Again denied ignorance.

The topic is orinial sin no your opinion of marg.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by idle_rocker

 

You need to denied ignorance and stop the none sense it seems that you seems to forget the TOs over and over again and want to stay off topic.

Again denied ignorance.

The topic is orinial sin no your opinion of marg.

Okay, you are officially on ignore. I am on topic here, you just keep trying to tell all Christians they are NOT on topic. So, either get over it, and stop coming to the threads to monitor them (that's the Mod's) jobs, or give some constructive feedback.

reply to post by idle_rocker


Or could have been the only way to introduce death as man was not immortal and the Bible redactors knew that eventually the issue of death would challenge the issue of immortality.

Very simple actually if you step away from a moment from the bible and try to see the way that the bible story of genesis was put together.

Sometimes it doesn't hurt to see all angles in certain issues, is not going to turn you into devil advocate or make you sin or forget you own religious believes.

I think we are all in need of a rapture.

Here is some information I found from the Christian point of view since that is the belief I profess.

HUMAN IMMORTALITY AND THE FALL
1. Man's physical sensitivity. As a physical being, man was created with a sensitive nervous system.2 The sensitivity it affords is an enablement for physical life. For example, the human ear has otoliths for sensing physical balance in the presence of gravity. The skin has touch receptors for all manner of physical needs, including avoidance of physical injury. Thus the needs associated with living in a physical environment demand a physical body with nervous sensitivity.

Man and animals are constructed with other systems for survival. The blood's clotting factor and tissue repair mechanisms contribute to recovery from physical injury. The immune system fights bacterial and viral attack. The existence of all these bodily protection and repair systems points to a design for life in a natural world potentially dangerous and harmful in the physical sense.

2. Sensitivity to pain and suffering. Thus a susceptibility to a certain measure of pain and suffering is necessary to physical existence as a living being. Some such susceptibility is integral to the notion of man's mandate for dominion over the earth. Dominion involves struggle and with it an exposure to pain.3

3. Pain increased since the fall. Pain and suffering are of course greatly increased since the fall because man lost spiritual authority over the creation and now fights against nature and works in it less effectively. Eve was promised an increase of pain in childbirth (Gen 3:16), presumably via either increased fecundity or more difficult labor. Also much pain and suffering are due to evil and persecution directly. God in his manifold wisdom nevertheless uses pain and suffering to bring us to Christ and to help us grow.

4. Death physical and spiritual. Historical Christianity has always held that man dies because of sin. Based on Genesis 3, the death of man is seen as the direct effect of the fall.4 The technical nature of death, however, has been variously explained. The fact that Adam and Eve persisted biologically after sinning, while having been warned that "in the day that you (sin) you will die" (Gen 2:17), leads most interpreters to conclude that when they sinned they died spiritually-they died in the sense of spiritual separation from God.5 Physical death came later as a consequence. At the death of the body, the soul went to either heaven or hell.

5. The soul and immortality. The soul's persistence after bodily death suggests that the soul is immortal inherently.6 J. R. Williams argues that the "soul ... is grounded in and lives out of the spirit,117 which by being God's breath is immortal, and hence the human soul "may be said to be immortal."8 "At the death of the body the spirit is 'given up' to God," according to Eccl 12:7; Luke 23:46.9Correspondingly, man in the beginning might have been wholly immortal and then lost his bodily immortality only because of sin. This is the view of Bush: "When the first pair violated the divine command, they immediately became mortal, subject to infirmity and death."10 Also, according to Shedd "the body of Adam was not mortal by creation…. In the original plan provision was made for the immortality of the body."11 But Shedd sees this immortality as peculiar in being vulnerable to loss: "Prior to the fall the human body was not liable to death from internal causes, but only from external. It had no latent diseases, and no seeds of death in it.... It could, however, be put to death. If it were deprived of food, or air, it would die.... This original immortality of the body ... was mutable and relative only. It might be lost." 12 Adam's immortality before the fall was therefore probationary.

www.reasons.org

More to come as I have run out of space here.

Continued from above here. I will also find more about the actual fruit, etc.

The view that Adam's immortality was contingent may be developed further. The whole of Scripture teaches that man's existence is never autonomous but is always dependent on providential support from God. Hodge says that "the idea of the absolute dependence of all things on God pervades the Scripture."13 Genesis 3:22, furthermore, declares that Adam and Eve had to be banished from the Garden of Eden. This was necessary to deny them access to the tree of life, which itself was necessary for eternal life. Taken first in the literal sense, the verse implies that eating a physical fruit was necessary for eternal life, and hence Adam and Eve were not immortal inherently.

Augustine believed that "Adam's body (was) a natural and therefore mortal body." 14 Further, he said that "Adam's body (was) ... mortal because be was able to die, immortal because he was able not to die.... This immortality was given to him from the tree of life, not from his nature. When he sinned, he was separated from this tree.... He was mortal, therefore, by the constitution of his natural body, and he was immortal by the gift of his Creator."15 In agreement, Litton declares that "he (Adam) was capable of death, but not subject to it.... Inherent immortality belongs only to the Creator."16 Chafer says similarly that "the original or unfallen body was capable of death. Death was not then inevitable, though it was possible."17

6. The tree of life and immortality. The usual view is that eating from the tree of life would have maintained Adam's immortality or conferred it permanently. MacDonald disagreed, saying that the tree was merely a sign of the divine promise of life.18 His disagreement was based partly on the prima facie inherent properties of trees (implying their limitations as mere physical objects) and partly on the frequency of the tree-of-life motif in extra-Biblical literature.19

Note that the tree of life is construed as more than, or other than, physical in Prov 3:18, which says of wisdom: "She is a tree of life to those who embrace her; those who lay hold of her will be blessed." Proverbs 11:30; 13:12present the tree of life similarly. In Ezek 31:2-9 trees are symbols of kingship and exalted majesty. Verses 8 and 9 specifically mention the preeminence of one tree - namely, Assyria (cf. v. 3) - over all the trees in the garden of God.

Taken more broadly the tree of life had a spiritual character, the life-giving power of the Holy Spirit. The tree of life "in the paradise of God" appears in Rev 2:7, offered by Christ to those who overcome in his name. It also appears in 22:2, located on each side of the great "river of the water of life".

www.reasons.org

reply to post by First Sergeant Kent A. Tr


Had one.. Very painful


[edit on 16/3/08 by Myrdyn]

Having read much of what has been posted here, I have a question. Are butterflies capable of sin?

original sin was always/will always be a way of intimidating those you do not know. Or only met briefly. The complexity of existance puts far more than 'to sin or not to sin'. We are all equal in the aspect of being created by ONE creator and the whole process that it took.. (which took less than a nano second). You have those who are dark/grey/light. Actually you have over billions and billions of entities who are all 'individual' but connected to all things. No original sin/ original realities!
Peace and Harmony through Unconditional LOVE!