Originally posted by Wilsonfrisk
Mao's mass extermination program was called "the great leap forward".

The 'great leap forward' was Mao's effort to industrialise China - move China from farming to industry. It was a mess that led to famine, but had nothing to do with Darwin.

Indeed, it was a case of changes in technology forcing changes in society. A purely marxist/communist idea based on production etc.

But I assume because it says 'great leap forward' you think this has something to do with evolutionary biology. If Andre shows a similar level of argument, I'm not surprised he left people 'speechless'. I even wondered whether it was worth my brain glucose to type these words.

On topic: 'evolutionist' is just a sucky word. I suppose if it's used in the context of science, rather than belief systems it makes more sense. For example, we have biologists, psychologists, physicists etc. At the level of theories/paradigms, we have behaviourists, cognitivists etc. So, if an evolutionist is seen as a scientist working within the paradigm of evolution, it appears to make more sense. Whereas if it's just someone who accepts evolution, then so would atomicist, germist etc.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by melatonin]

I can't teach anything to you, you are a religious fundamentalist, with a rigid and dogmatic belief system to defend.

Although the idea that Hitler was not basing his actions on the "adapt or die" system is totally nonsensical. Darwinism is the basis of Eugenics. The Darwin family was already practicing eugenics, marrying with only the Wedgewood family; Charles was married to his cousin, and when she died he married his aunt. Most of his children were insane. Galton (falsely accredited with inventing eugenics) was Darwin's cousin.

Hitler ran a eugenics program. That is the basis of Nazism - what is the "superman" and the "master race"? Are these Christian concepts? And your proof he is a Christian is that he publicly supported Christianity? What? Don't all leaders of Christian countries have to do that? Do you think George Bush is a Christian too, with all his gay prostitutes, Skull and Bones, and Moloch worship? Do you just believe it all?

I see you didn't touch communism, as it is well known and undeniable that Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were all devotees of Darwinism. They killed 50 times more people than Hitler.

There is a book people should look into called "In the Min's of Men: Darwin and the New World Order" (I don't recall the author). It documents and sources all of what I have said here.

Originally posted by Wilsonfrisk
Hitler ran a eugenics program. That is the basis of Nazism - what is the "superman" and the "master race"? Are these Christian concepts?

Actually they're gnostic christian concepts.. a far cry from evolution and atheism. Hitler apparently even took the spear of detiny and brang it back to Germany.. you know.. the one that killed Jesus? It's suppose to give the barer godlike power because it killed the son of god etc. Obviously he believed in it's power as otherwise he wouldn't have bothered with it.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by riley]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


my case is advanced enough by finding those of religious persuasions that believe in evolution

How about the religious group called "Atheists"

Evolutionists use the scientific method ala naturalism where if they can't see it touch it smell it then it isn't real but they won't say that about gravity. I see Atheists at the Republican debates asking if John McCaine believed in evolution. John McCaine is a pretty smart guy and someone I have met and talked with on more then a few occasions.

He used to attend the same Church I do so I guess you can add him to the list but knowing McCaine,, he most likely assumed he was being asked that question by an atheist and doesn't want to risk losing anyones vote. So he said YES, knowing that he might get a few raised eyebrows from the religious right, he also added "but when I look out over the grand canyon I see the hand of God" He wouldn't have answered it that way if he didn't assume that question was asked by an Atheist behind the guise of his interest in Science.

If he had asked McCaine more specifically if he believed in macro evolution, I am pretty sure he would have gotten a differen't answer.

So it might help to be more specific about kind of evolution believers you want to add to your list.


- Con

I'm just surprised someone actually mentioned my religion in a thread. Hooray for Shinto.

Con, we can observe and measure the effects of gravity. We can predict its effects. We use it in equations all the time.

Many things in science are 'invisible', as in we can't touch them, but we can observe their effects. In fact, using science we can actually predict the existence of some phenomena before we observe them (e.g., quarks).

The supernatural isn't like that though. We can actually attempt to measure its real-world effects when they are claimed. Thus, we can do experiments on prayer etc.. We tend to find nowt, of course.

Originally posted by Wilsonfrisk
You know Marx wanted to write the forward to one of Darwin's books? He said it justified his entire philosophy scientifically. The two concepts are part of the same movement. This is self evident. Communism is simply Darwinism as applied to social science.

Heh, I actually think most would say darwinism is more akin to capitalism. But even though major post-marxian communists both rejected it for a neo-lamarckian theory, you think communism is just social darwinism.

I can't be bothered answering the rest. Lets just say you have left me speechless. You win.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
Con, we can observe and measure the effects of gravity. We can predict its effects. We use it in equations all the time.


Many things in science are 'invisible', as in we can't touch them, but we can observe their effects. In fact, using science we can actually predict the existence of some phenomena before we observe them (e.g., quarks).

I realize it exists and I know how to calculate, measure, observe whatever it is holding me to the ground but what causes it? what makes it? how did it evolve? what is it made out of?

The supernatural isn't like that though. .

Oh?? Tell me Mel what is it like? I thought you didn't think there was such a thing.

- Con

[edit on 17-3-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by Conspiriology
Why blame hating the Jews on Luther and let Darwin off the same hook for his influence on Hitler

What influence?

Show me him fawning over him?

He did fawn over de Gobineau and Luther. He even called Sparta the first 'volkish state'.

So, I guess you mean through eugenics? Not really specifically Darwin. Galton and others. Eugenics didn't even require Darwin, the ideas had been around for while (e.g., Sparta).

The US system didn't include gas chambers to kill millions of a specific race or people. The fact that millions of Christians died trying to stop the Nazi's never gets mentioned

Well done USA!

The point I'm trying to make here is that you can throw blame on darwin if you think it's worthwhile, but the blame can more readily fall on christian influences.

Myself, I think Hitler was just a nutcase. A meglomaniac who would use whatever he could towards his own ends. The antisemitism of christianity was just as influential as eugenics, probably moreso. Racial purity was around before Darwin - de Gobineau even raised the idea of the Aryan race being adam's descendents. Hitler was hot on him. But eugenics played a part. It gave a facade of scientific credibility to his ideas.

However, the nazis banned some books on evolution.

I think Godwin must be lurking by now...

Originally posted by Conspiriology
I realize it exists and I know how to calculate, measure, observe whatever it is holding me to the ground but what causes it? what makes it? how did it evolve? what is it made out of?

Well, it's either gravitons or the flying spagetti monster pushing stuff down.

Oh?? Tell me Mel what is it like?

Magic?

[edit on 17-3-2008 by melatonin]

there are so, so many things wrong with this incredibly, insanely off topic post that i feel it must be addressed.

Originally posted by Wilsonfrisk
Because Darwinism is just a rehashing of an ancient Freemasonic religious belief.

myth
you cannot substantiate this

It wasn't invented by Darwin.

technically, it was first proposed by Erasmus Darwin and then Charlie did all the science
...so it was invented by Darwin, just not Charlie

In fact, even his own grandfather tried to introduce the exact same theory in his day. Look into that.

...no, his grandfather just came up with the idea. he never really tried to introduce it as anything more than some ideas about the concept.
the actual theory as something supportable was Charles

All of the concepts of evolution are present in basic Hinduism, on which Freemasonry is also based.

...have you ever studied hinduism?
speaking as someone who has, you're very mistaken...on both counts.
unless you can provide proof (something you've yet to do)
..especially since freemasonry seems to only show love for the 3 monotheistic religions...

It is a pseudoscientific justification of selective breeding and the defining of better and lesser types.

...selective breeding has been around for millenia
just look at the banana (contrary to what kirk cameron and ray cameron say, it's really the creationist's nightmare)

Correct. The American Eugenics society, funded by Rockefeller. Sorry for calling you stupid.

...it seems like you often resort to ad hom attacks
just like when you told mel "another one bites the dust" when he refused to put up with the headache that i'm now getting from responding to this ignorance.

In actual fact, all of these concepts have been around as long as history.

...not really.
well, parts of it, yes...but that's how a theory works, you take existing knowledge and realize how it's linked together with new knowledge.

The royalty of just about every empire in history end up breeding with their own siblings.

...which is actually the exact opposite of good from an evolutionary standpoint.

The priests of Sumer had to give permission for certain individuals to marry, and the Catholic church (the same mystery religion) employed this practice for a long time as well. This is a eugenics concept.

...sumerian priests? um...evidence?
and the catholic church is nothing at all like the insanely polytheistic sumerian religion(s)...and it never did that
in fact, it seems like you've been fed quite a bit of misinformation
Powerful psychopaths always breed with one another to produce ruthless children who will carry on their work.

Hahaha. From Christian Zionists! And yes, the Zionist movement is very tied to Nazism. It is a very new concept though. As you say, Christians didn't always get along so well with Jews, let alone worship them.

...wow...more ignorance
yeah, it was really the christian zionists that led that slaughter of the middianites in ancient canaan...
the concept of a "chosen people" pretty much dates to the adapted monotheistic religion that we now know as judaism.

I do tend to think the Christian religion is less harmful than the Darwinian faith, but historically, the difference is nominal.

rigorously tested science isn't a faith.
...i'm really understanding why mel didn't respond to this now...
but i shall soldier on.

...and darwinism isn't responsible for any deaths...

Yes. More people died under communism in the 20th century than in all the wars in history combined.

...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, can you prove these claims?

and 99% of the people that died due to communism actually died from incompetence of those in charge instead of through the brutality of the regimes
...mainly through starvation

You know Marx wanted to write the forward to one of Darwin's books? He said it justified his entire philosophy scientifically.

this is a myth, which just shows how misinformed you are.
look into the reality of it and you'll see that such a thing never happened and such a statement about darwin's works were never made by marx...

The two concepts are part of the same movement. This is self evident. Communism is simply Darwinism as applied to social science.

...actually, in a communist system those unfit to survive still survive...
so it's actually the exact opposite.