Massacre in Tibet!

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posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 10:48 PM
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reply to post by chinawhite
 


All of the answers to your questions are located in the links between the two pages. I am not going to continue to educate someone who refuses to learn.

I buy products from all over the world, I do however prefer quality, and I refuse to support human rights violations with my hard earned money.





posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 10:54 PM
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Okay, I'll say up front, this is off-topic.


Originally posted by IchiNiSan
Fine, and you should have elaborated that in your original post immediately. And I will not get into the greatness of multi-parties & coalition-ruling systems, which could bring dictators like Hitler or Saddam in power.


A multi-party system didn't bring Saddam to power, a coup did. A multi-party system didn't bring Hitler to power. He was elected to the Reichstag, he was never elected Chancellor. And you say you know German history.


China is officially a multi-party DEVELOPING country,


Officially? According to which officials? Who cares whether it's developing or not. That doesn't give the government the right to invade foreign nations, annexe territory, drive tanks over its own citizens or bill parents for their children's executions.


but even the most closed-minded Chinese knows that in reality only one party is in power. But this does not mean the whole populace is member of the Communist party.


Ah, truth at last.


can still decide by themselves if they want to join this party or not.


But they can't decide for themselves and the nation whether that party should be in charge.


However, what one can not see is that the CCP is NOT a one-person one-man show, like the NSDAP or Communistic parties of Lenin and Stalin.


Know who Beria was? How about Himmler? Hardly one-man shows you're quoting there.


It has a wide range of members of all over China, representing most parts and levels of the people.


Representing who? The people? So why were there more anti-government demonstrations last year than at any time before?


Most important is the CCP and Chinese government


Interesting separation you mention there.


(discounted all the corrupted officials)


How many does that leave to run the country, then?


has the best interests of the Chinese people in mind.


Yes, we know. But this thread is about the Tibetan people. And your point is so laughably debatable it's not actually funny.


For the past 30 years, China started to develop from the edge of total bankrupcy and no point of return.


Ahh, quick, laud the achievements of the party. But wait, who was the government three decades ago? Why, I do believe it was the CCP. So, we should celebrate the CCP lifting China from bankruptcy, but ignore that it was the CCP that put it there in the first place?


Since the succesful reforms of Deng Xiaoping in the party,


Reforms of what? If reform was so needed, if the party was so wrong, why do you revere the founder?


the government and most obvious and known to outsiders the economy,


Yes, in a clear betrayal of everything Chairman Mao theorised and created.


which is key to bring the common man properity and hope, people and the society have started to prosper again.


Unless you're a rice farmer whose paddies are now the site of a Grand Prix track. Or you work on one of those famously safe building sites. The nation my be prospering, the people and the society appear to be doing no such thing.


You know how short of a period 30 years is?


About the length of my life, so far. About how long Vietnam fought for its "independence". About how long The Thirty Years War lasted.


How short it is it to overcome 200-300 years loss in developments?


Loss? You can't lose what you don't have.


Unlike Germany (NSDAP) in WW2, China did not participate in the industrial revolution,


Whose fault is that? You chose to build a wall, scrap your fleet, end trade and turn inward. No-one did it to you but yourselves. All those "Chinese Firsts" Discovery are telling us about at the moment, anyone would think you invented the modern world, instead of being left behind by it.


and felt behind to become a secondary state at the end of the bankrupted Qing.


Secondary? That's generous.


Only untill 30 years ago China started to prosper, and yet there are still big population (over 80%) who can be noted as poor, these are Han Chinese or other minorities.


If the Han Chinese are a minority, who are the majority?


In this 1.3 billions populated country nothing is as simple as one see it. The Chinese culture and history go back more than 5000 years,


So does Egypt's, Iraq's, Iran's, Syria's...so what. That 5,000 years doesn't include East Turkestan or Tibet.


and everything is more more complex and complicated one would think.


What an insight.


Everything has her history, even Tibet.


Yes, Tibetan histroy, not Chinese. Where were you when Guge ruled?


My critics to most China-bashers here and everywhere else is that most of these people only mindlessly read something in their media, which are very often telling lies and not doing their own due diligence and researches, before jumping in the band-wagon.


Er, as opposed to mindlessly listening to what the Party says, which we all know is the paragon of truth, and riding the new express to the roof of the world?


You can not simply set a autonomous part of China free without facing probably even bigger problems.


But they're not YOUR problems, they'll be Tibet's problems. Vietnam simply set Cambodia free.


These problems would maybe not only be limited in Tibet, every single decision the central and local Chinese government makes need to take the whole nation's long-term benefits in mind.


Utter, irredeemable and obvious crap. If that was so then why do you have to shut off municipal water supplies because of poisoned rivers?


The country and her population is too big,


So you borrowed an old policy from another one-party state

en.wikipedia.org...


it is too dangerous to let disorder continues and instability rise.


Only to the government.


The potential human disaster with a country-wide instability is beyond anyone's recognition or imagination.


Really? All I have to do for inspiration is look at early 20th Century China to see what mass instability does.


Or actually you can learn from history,


I hope so. And given my previous line, I can see that the CCP have learnt from history. They know what led to their rise, they don't want to see it repeated when they are the government.


look at a religious uprising of the so-called Heaven Kingdoms fighters, who the sick minded actually believed he was the second son of God. Human losts in that civil war? TENS OF MILLIONS, biggest loss of people in a civil war!


Okay, you lost me on that one.


Tibet is a part of China, autonomy can be given, but no seperation is allowed, neither are violent riots.


Unless you're violently rioting in support of the central government. "Hey, Japan are lying about Nanking, we weren't the government then, but go burn down a factory, school or consulate, show them that us Chinese will never forget what they did to us. National sovereignty, blah, blah, blah. Those dirty Japanese invaded China. Occupied Manchuria. Raped Nanking. Tibet is an integral, inseparable part of China. It always was, it always will be and you can't invade something that you already own. Even if you have no government representation there."


edit: quotes

[edit on 18-3-2008 by HowlrunnerIV]



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 11:00 PM
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reply to post by gluetrap
 


There are so many dangerous products that come out of china...boycott the products for the sake of Tibet but also for your own health. Bad drugs coming from china.

www.sciencedaily.com...




posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 11:03 PM
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Originally posted by Witness2008
All of the answers to your questions are located in the links between the two pages. I am not going to continue to educate someone who refuses to learn.


Thats it?.

All you are going to do is refer to a Tibetan Activist site?.

One thing for sure, they claim this

it was an agreement between two independent and sovereign states


China would never have come to a agreement or have this in the agreement which basically says that China did not have sovereignty over Tibet. Its a object opinion NOT fact.


They never even mention the Rebellion or the CIA's involvement



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


For too many people the human rights atrocities arent enough to incite action, or even real thought into the products they buy.

In that case sick or dead pets, children exposed to lead and tainted medications should do the trick.

and I also buy products from all over but as a small business woman who makes and sells my product from beginning to end I choose to support other small local or regional businesses as much as possible.

this also helps support a sustainable and more "green" economy.

I personally am not happy with the olympics being in china, the air pollution alone is a very real threat to the health of the althletes, and too many of Chinas policies violate basic modern ethics and human rights aggreements and treaties.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 11:23 PM
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reply to post by gluetrap
 


I too own my own on-line business, and I agree with you on the importance of supporting local crafters, the quality can not be matched.

Athletes have boycotted the Olympics because of the amount of pollution all over china and many more are concerned of their health because of it. I'll look for the article for you, I believe it was in a sports periodical.

Once our leadership here puts our consumer protections back to work I think much of chinas export will have to remain at home, but for now I think we will be able to use those bad products to bring pressure to what is happening in Tibet.




posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 03:00 AM
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China: Crisis 'Life Or Death Struggle
'Photos. wow! How brave and honourable do the police look? They love the old bamboo don’t they.

news.sky.com...

news.sky.com...
senior Chinese official has said China is in a "life or death struggle" over Tibet and called the region's spiritual leader a "monster".

Chinese soldiers in Sichuan province
The comments come as China steps up its rhetoric against the Dalai Lama, blaming him for an outbreak of violence, a charge he denies.
More than 100 people are thought to have died as pro-independence protests in Tibet and neighbouring Chinese provinces were put down by authorities.
Chinese state media says that 105 people have surrendered to police after taking part in protests.
Zhang Qingli, Communist Party leader in Tibet, said: "We are currently in an intensely bloody and fiery struggle with the Dalai Lama clique, a life or death struggle with the enemy.
As long as we ... remain of one heart, turn the masses into a walled city and work together to attack the enemy, then we can safeguard social stability and achieve a full victory in this intense battle against separatism."
At a meeting in Lhasa on Tuesday, Zhang blamed violent unrest in Lhasa and around the Tibetan region on the exiled Dalai Lama.
He fled Tibet in 1959 following a failed uprising and is now based in Dharamsala in India.
Zhang said the Dalai Lama was seeking to use the period before the Beijing Olympic Games in August to foment unrest.
He added: "The Dalai Lala is a wolf wrapped in a habit, a monster with human face and animal's heart."
Following riots in Lhasa on Friday last week, China declared "a people's war" on Tibetan separatists, using rhetoric from the nation's Maoist era when the country was run by political extremists.
The ongoing unrest in Tibet, which began on the March 10 anniversary of the 1959 uprising, is the most intense in nearly two decades.
On Tuesday the Dalai Lama, Tibetan Buddhism's highest spiritual authority and the 1989 Nobel Peace Prize winner, called on his followers in the Himalayan region to refrain from violence in their protests.

To think a little old man can make mighty china tremble at the knees.

Imagine what the world could do. If they just cared.



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 03:20 AM
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reply to post by iammonkey
 


Hey, a little old man made the British Empire tremble, maybe the Central Committee have been having screenings at this week's NPC...

www.imdb.com...




posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 03:24 AM
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Originally posted by iammonkeyChina: Crisis 'Life Or Death Struggle
'Photos. wow! How brave and honourable do the police look? They love the old bamboo don’t they.


Your post is misleading.

They are Nepalese police NOT Chinese police for the record

Skynews has completely taken his speech out of context



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 03:32 AM
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First of all, I really regret that you are constantly comparing wrongdoings of China to wrongdoings of other countries. Does it make it any better if another country commits the same violations?

Apart from that you failed to answer the following questions:

Elaborate shortly why:
-China does not show a single picture or tape in Chinese media of the violent way in which its troops deal with the Tibetan protesters.
-China does block access to objective news sources (from Europe, as the US has no objective media) Chinese friends told me they cannot even browse the BBC news website when they are in China.

Is it really that hard to admit the wrongdoings of China?



Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by Mdv2
This thread is about China and Tibet, not about the US or any other country


When discussing Human rights you need a comparison to show how well you are going. Humans is not a real thing as in heat or sound, it can only be compared to something and that something is "the worlds most liberal society" the US.


I would say it is Holland. Since medieval times minorities from all over Europe have come to Holland because of its liberal stance. As a result of the inquisition many Sephardic Jews from Portugal and Spain fled to Holland to start a new life. Amsterdam is the gay capital of Europe, there's no other place where gays are generally so much accepted than Holland.

Nevertheless, this thread is about China and I can assure you that China will not even come close to the most liberal country in the world with the regime it has. So please stop reflecting all the time.


-China occupies Tibet.



Because its part of China. Even the Dalai Lama doesn't argue against Chinas claim to Tibet or even the fact that Tibet is part of Chinas territory. Occpuy as in having a police presence which every country has


I beg your pardon? China occupies Tibet for many decades. Chinese imperialism. Taiwan doesn't want the PRC nor does Tibet, isn't it time to get the hell out of their?




-China does not allow the democratic principle of having the right to demonstrate



democratic principle is how you look at things. Is it fair to shout out abuse at someone because you have free speech?. China is a much more conservative society than the west, even Japan and Korea are that conservative. Any disruption to the peace is not accepted. Koreans farmers and Japanese farmers aren't allowed to protest

Demonstrate leads to riot as demonstrated in this case. The Anti-Japanese protest in China was also peaceful at the beginning but turned into a riot and diplomatic row later on.


You might be right on the conservatism part, however, I beg to differ with you on the fact that demonstrations don't necessarily have to lead to riots. We have demonstrations all the time. Last Sunday people were demonstrating against the Chinese government, a couple of thousands... in front of the Chinese ambassy... no riots...



-China does not allow any criticism



And?


What AND? Then don't wonder you have riots if no criticism is allowed. There is a crucial difference between criticism and spreading words of overthrowing the goverment.



r who are under 24h surveillance for writing articles against the interest of the Chinese government



And America or any other government doesn't do the same?


Give me an example of a journalist who is not allowed to write what he wants and is under 24h surveillance of US security troops.

Thanks.

[edit on 19-3-2008 by Mdv2]



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 04:00 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by iammonkeyChina: Crisis 'Life Or Death Struggle
'Photos. wow! How brave and honourable do the police look? They love the old bamboo don’t they.


Your post is misleading

what part do you find misleading?

They are Nepalese police NOT Chinese police for the recor

yes Sky news CLEARY state that on the photos


Skynews has completely taken his speech out of context

what part?



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 05:26 AM
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Originally posted by Mdv2
Apart from that you failed to answer the following questions


Failed?. Is it my job to answer your questions?

Why would they post pictures of normal police activity?. Thats whats expected of police when there are armed criminals killing innocent civilians

- I already answered the bit about Media censorship



Nevertheless, this thread is about China and I can assure you that China will not even come close to the most liberal country in the world with the regime it has.


And when China had a liberal government?. Not exactly liberal but it was a liberal society because of the lack of government. Crime, Corruption, Killings and Drugs. China is not yet developed enough to allow such a liberal society, only a decade ago most villages just came out of communism and now you want them to introduce them to liberal ideas when they haven't been fostered in the right setting?



Taiwan doesn't want the PRC nor does Tibet,


Some people in Taiwan dont want to be part of China. They are the minority now. Also, the Dalai Lama conceded that Tibet is a part of China. The quote has been posted by me in this thread


Last Sunday people were demonstrating against the Chinese government, a couple of thousands.


That is in Holland and this is in China. Its more trouble than its worth because more often than not peoples emotion boils over. Just like the Tibet riots and even the Anti-Japanese protest both of which were somewhat peaceful. It cost millions to stop a riot and the lost of property and potentially lives is not worth this "freedom"



Then don't wonder you have riots if no criticism is allowed.


There are problems between ranting and writing a complaint. Some people dont even think before they do


Give me an example of a journalist who is not allowed to write what he wants and is under 24h surveillance of US security troops.


You dont seem to know that case of the NSA. Google it to find the information for yourself. The US government monitors everything since 9/11

Patriot Act

Smith Act - America

knowingly or willfully advocate, abet, advise or teach the duty, necessity, desirability or propriety of overthrowing the Government of the United States or of any State by force or violence, or for anyone to organize any association which teaches, advises or encourages such an overthrow, or for anyone to become a member of or to affiliate with any such association



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 05:28 AM
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Originally posted by iammonkey
what part do you find misleading?


Your heading.

"China: Crisis 'Life Or Death Struggle
'Photos. wow! How brave and honourable do the police look? They love the old bamboo don’t they. "

It makes it sound like the Chinese police and the picture with Bambo batons is not named correctly.



what part?


This bit
The Dalai Lala is a wolf wrapped in a habit, a monster with human face and animal's heart."

He had more of a point to it while they just cut and pasted the line they wanted



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 08:44 AM
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reply to post by 27jd

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This whole thread is bursting at the seams with chinese propaganda, this link may explain what is going on here between ATS and our chinese friends.

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 18-3-2008 by Witness2008]




Originally posted by 27jd
reply to post by Witness2008
 


Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for the link though, it certainly would seem consistent with what we see here, also I notice chinawhite's sig is riddled with what appears to be Chinese government ads, another thing you don't really see much from other countries, none of us are that proud, lol.

Sorry Jingjing, it won't work here, you're not very effective at psychological warfare, and attempting it on a site where we are all suspected of being government agents at some point, makes it even more difficult when it's almost glaringly obvious you are one. You'd be better off trying what the Japanese did on the Chinpokomon episode of South Park and compliment the size of our genitals over and over until we are so flattered that we ignore the attrocities of your government.


[edit on 18-3-2008 by 27jd]


now i get it. this is how you american debate with your counterworker, by avioding and twisting the truth, and demonizing us as secret agent. it's just amaze me. may i ask you two what you are??? perhaps secret CIA agent?? consider CIA's policy, it won't be a big surprise for me though.

you think you know better than we do??? we can read your newspaper, listen your side of story, although it's totallly twisted propaganda. and what you got??? what you got excepting the twisted propaganda your media plays on and on???? can you see the other side of the story without twisted by your "free" media??? sometimes i just feel sorry for you guys.



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by zhangxi0183
now i get it. this is how you american debate with your counterworker, by avioding and twisting the truth, and demonizing us as secret agent.


No, just kinda curious how you guys are so defensive of everything your government does. Almost like somebody is watching over your shoulders.


That and chinawhite posts WAY too much in response to everything, complete with pictures and long pro-PRC diatribes. 3000+ posts right? Almost as if there is more than one person, or a full time job, lol. Didn't figure you guys had that much spare time in China....



it's just amaze me. may i ask you two what you are??? perhaps secret CIA agent?? consider CIA's policy, it won't be a big surprise for me though.


You sure may ask. I work in health insurance. I'm MORE than happy to say that my government is FULL of ass hats, the Bush administration SUCKS, and the US should pull out of Iraq ASAP. Now it's your turn...



you think you know better than we do??? we can read your newspaper, listen your side of story, although it's totallly twisted propaganda. and what you got??? what you got excepting the twisted propaganda your media plays on and on???? can you see the other side of the story without twisted by your "free" media??? sometimes i just feel sorry for you guys.




Yeah, we all put SO much faith in our media...that was sarcasm of course. Our mainstream media sucks, almost as much as yours.


[edit on 19-3-2008 by 27jd]



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 11:26 AM
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www.michaelparenti.org...

Some readings for some interested to chew on.

Ps. non-Chinese written full of checkable sources.



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 11:30 AM
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Just a reminder...


Please focus the responses on the the topic of discussion, not fellow members character and or person.

Thank you.



» Other Current Events » Massacre in Tibet! » Post Reply



 



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
Is it my job to answer your questions?




Personally, I suspect that it is. What's wrong, are you getting discouraged? Is it hard to believe that outside of China, the PRC's propaganda and mind control is almost comic?

Edit: Sorry, missed the last post...

[edit on 19-3-2008 by 27jd]



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by 27jd
 


The difference between our media and China's media is that our Media is just full of Stupid, whereas Chinese Media is full of Fail.

Stupid being different from Fail because Chinese Media is 100% propoganda, designed for their people to believe only what the Party wishes them to.

Here in America, we don't censor our media (Except when someone's nipple slips out into view, or the *Bleeping* explitives).



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by TheColdDragon
 


Yeah, our media is controlled by the PC crowd, theirs the PRC crowd, lol. Like I said, both suck, but at least ours isn't run by the government, and you can see plenty of criticism of it in our MSM. Can you imagine where Keith Olberman would be if he were Chinese?





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