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Massacre in Tibet!

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posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 04:56 PM
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The video link has a brief and moving account of Tibetan History

www.youtube.com...

It seems to me the world should just simply demand China honor the seventeen point agreement that so many chinese wave around as a reason for their occupation of Tibet. Abiding their own agreement with Tibet would certainly save face.

www.freetibet.org...

[edit on 18-3-2008 by Witness2008]

[edit on 18-3-2008 by Witness2008]




posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 04:58 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


Like 27id .. that is exactly what I thought as soon as I saw the typical Chinese protection squad come into a Chinese thread..

I have a lot of suspicion of the Chinese when it comes to internet and information..



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
reply to [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread341740/pg18#pid4130095]post

While this has not been done, i wouldn't actually call it racistic to do so. But that's a matter of definition and pretty pointless. Same with your posts - while not being specifically racistic, a sensible mind could see a little chinese superiority mentality in them or at least between the lines.
Pulling out the racism card hasn't helped anyone in any debate - and while this thread had some warnings for "both sides", i would prefer the debate to go on and stay within the T&C of ATS.


If I re-read your original post, I saw and still see a belittling and wrong accusions of the whole of the Chinese population to be fascists and Nazis, which the NSDAP accusation is right after he generalized Chinese people to be closed-minded.mindless followers.

Using the NSDAP reference here is totally miss-placed and you obviously know what NSDAP is synonym and what it really means for, was using it to deliberately provoke the Chinese members over here. And fuel the hatred towards the Chinese ethnicity by comparing a nation with the worst criminals&racists of the human history.

Indeed a sensible mind could see some of the more biased views among SOME of the Chinese members in this board. And that's why I highly doubt you have read all the thread or the other related thread before posting in this one. Or try to read between the lines of even some of these posters being brough forth to proof that the story is much more complicated and complex than simply "just set Tibet free, because there is an exiled government outside, which btw is only aiming at greater autonomy!". After all, if you did, you would not throw all the Chinese members of ATS in that fascistic corner. This is the reason why I would sense racism immediately after your insulting post. Without your FULL explanation, which is debatable for its correctness or even debatable if it is not only to cover one's racistic view, one more knowledgable in the European can only believe you are a racist.


I try to explain it once again for you - i wasn't referring to the people per se, but to the mindsets of people living and supporting a single party state, if you like it better, i'll compare it to stalinist sowjetunion - another ideology, same crimes, same bastards at the top. Now, would that also be racist ?


Fine, and you should have elaborated that in your original post immediately. And I will not get into the greatness of multi-parties & coalition-ruling systems, which could bring dictators like Hitler or Saddam in power. China is officially a multi-party DEVELOPING country, but even the most closed-minded Chinese knows that in reality only one party is in power. But this does not mean the whole populace is member of the Communist party. People can still decide by themselves if they want to join this party or not. And only untill recently private entrepreneurs are allowed to join the party. However, what one can not see is that the CCP is NOT a one-person one-man show, like the NSDAP or Communistic parties of Lenin and Stalin. It has a wide range of members of all over China, representing most parts and levels of the people. Most important is the CCP and Chinese government (discounted all the corrupted officials) has the best interests of the Chinese people in mind.

For the past 30 years, China started to develop from the edge of total bankrupcy and no point of return. Since the succesful reforms of Deng Xiaoping in the party, the government and most obvious and known to outsiders the economy, which is key to bring the common man properity and hope, people and the society have started to prosper again. You know how short of a period 30 years is? How short it is it to overcome 200-300 years loss in developments? Unlike Germany (NSDAP) in WW2, China did not participate in the industrial revolution, and felt behind to become a secondary state at the end of the bankrupted Qing. Only untill 30 years ago China started to prosper, and yet there are still big population (over 80%) who can be noted as poor, these are Han Chinese or other minorities.

In this 1.3 billions populated country nothing is as simple as one see it. The Chinese culture and history go back more than 5000 years, and everything is more more complex and complicated one would think. Everything has her history, even Tibet. My critics to most China-bashers here and everywhere else is that most of these people only mindlessly read something in their media, which are very often telling lies and not doing their own due diligence and researches, before jumping in the band-wagon. You can not simply set a autonomous part of China free without facing probably even bigger problems. These problems would maybe not only be limited in Tibet, every single decision the central and local Chinese government makes need to take the whole nation's long-term benefits in mind. The country and her population is too big, it is too dangerous to let disorder continues and instability rise. The potential human disaster with a country-wide instability is beyond anyone's recognition or imagination. Or actually you can learn from history, look at a religious uprising of the so-called Heaven Kingdoms fighters, who the sick minded actually believed he was the second son of God. Human losts in that civil war? TENS OF MILLIONS, biggest loss of people in a civil war!

This "one-party-system" (with representatives of all corners of China) can for my part last forever to continue developing all the territories of China and the whole society with the same DECISIVE and STRONG hands they showed. And you outsiders start to learn the other sides of the stories before jumping in the bandwagons. However, you do not need to worry for an agressive China towards the rest of the world like some hegemony showed in the Modern world. China is NOT interested in invading any country, so stop the propaganda. If it is the worries about so-called cheap low quality products (which are propaganda too) from China, do NOT buy it then and ask your own importers to buy from somewhere else then. But I can almost guarantee that your importers will buy the goods from Vietnam or whereever they can get the products cheaper than home-made.

Tibet is a part of China, autonomy can be given, but no seperation is allowed, neither are violent riots.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 05:10 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


What caught my attention was the fact that none of our chinese friends would comment on all of the links posted. Then I started thinking of all that I had read about all of the internet filters that china has in place and knew our visitors had special access to such a "subversive" site as ATS.

I feel fortunate to have been a part of this study in tactical propaganda.

ATS ROCKS!



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by Witness2008
What caught my attention was the fact that none of our chinese friends would comment on all of the links posted. Then I started thinking of all that I had read about all of the internet filters that china has in place and knew our visitors had special access to such a "subversive" site as ATS.


Yeah, that and a few pages back, a Chinese member stated that another member's IP address could be easily tracked, and that member's opinion was worthy of incarceration. That seemed a bit strange to me, like they are used to being able to lock people up for what they post on the internet. Maybe in China, but not here, pal.



I feel fortunate to have been a part of this study in tactical propaganda.


Yeah, it is kinda nice to be able to personally tell the Chinese internet police where they can shove it.


[edit on 18-3-2008 by 27jd]



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by 27jd
 


I'm curious to see what comments will come from our chinese friends considering this discovery, if any at all. Can you check the youtube link above and see if it connects? It does not for me. Thanks



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 05:30 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


I'm at work, so like China, you tube is blocked for me here, lol.

Anyway, check out the post above from IchiNiSan...



People can still decide by themselves if they want to join this party or not. And only untill recently private entrepreneurs are allowed to join the party. However, what one can not see is that the CCP is NOT a one-person one-man show, like the NSDAP or Communistic parties of Lenin and Stalin. It has a wide range of members of all over China, representing most parts and levels of the people. Most important is the CCP and Chinese government (discounted all the corrupted officials) has the best interests of the Chinese people in mind.


Hmmmm. (emphasis mine)

edit: oh yeah, left out this part...


Tibet is a part of China, autonomy can be given, but no seperation is allowed, neither are violent riots.


Looks like this member has put his foot down on the issue.



[edit on 18-3-2008 by 27jd]



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 05:49 PM
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reply to post by IchiNiSan
 


I am not sure if this question has been asked yet...but why does china not honor the sventeen point agreement that china likes to use to give as a reason for their present occupation?I have read the document many times through internet and library sources and I see an agreement that China has broken.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 05:57 PM
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reply to post by 27jd
 


There are so many things wrong with IchiNiSANs post I woud not know where to begin a reply. The insistant defense of chinese policy grows old. I feel bad for a lot of chinese. Can you imagine finding yourself in a place where Ideas flow freely (ATS) and not delving into the new and different.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 06:14 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


Yeah, I feel bad for them too. I do find myself thinking that the average Chinese person does not have much access to sites like this, and those that are given access are given that access for a purpose like we've come to suspect. Just about all of the Chinese responses offer NO criticism of the Chinese government at all (even the most pro-US and UK, etc. members here offer some criticism of their government) and they read like a PR related press release, mixed with calling other members "brainwashed" and "racistic" of course (which isn't even a word, lol). Anyway, they seem to employ the very tactics that link pointed out, pretty crazy stuff indeed.

[edit on 18-3-2008 by 27jd]



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by Mdv2
This thread is about China and Tibet, not about the US or any other country


When discussing Human rights you need a comparison to show how well you are going. Humans is not a real thing as in heat or sound, it can only be compared to something and that something is "the worlds most liberal society" the US. Thats why with any human rights argument you have to use a measuring stick to show where the progress is.



-China occupies Tibet.


Because its part of China. Even the Dalai Lama doesn't argue against Chinas claim to Tibet or even the fact that Tibet is part of Chinas territory. Occpuy as in having a police presence which every country has




-China does not allow the democratic principle of having the right to demonstrate


democratic principle is how you look at things. Is it fair to shout out abuse at someone because you have free speech?. China is a much more conservative society than the west, even Japan and Korea are that conservative. Any disruption to the peace is not accepted. Koreans farmers and Japanese farmers aren't allowed to protest

Demonstrate leads to riot as demonstrated in this case. The Anti-Japanese protest in China was also peaceful at the beginning but turned into a riot and diplomatic row later on.



-China does not allow any criticism


And?

Smith Act - America

knowingly or willfully advocate, abet, advise or teach the duty, necessity, desirability or propriety of overthrowing the Government of the United States or of any State by force or violence, or for anyone to organize any association which teaches, advises or encourages such an overthrow, or for anyone to become a member of or to affiliate with any such association



r who are under 24h surveillance for writing articles against the interest of the Chinese government


And America or any other government doesn't do the same?

The NSA in America for instance, the Patriot Act etc.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
That many of these Chinese posters are almost never on ATS until a thread pops up about Chinese issues.


Are you accusing me of something?


Odd also that China would even allow access to a site like ATS in China.


They only ban marquee sites like CNN, BBC, Falun Gong and sites like You tube which have unmonitored content.

ATS has never been blocked



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by Witness2008
This whole thread is bursting at the seams with chinese propaganda, this link may explain what is going on here between ATS and our chinese friends.


Are you working for the American government?

You seem to be advocating "American products" and trying to belittle the Chinese industry which sounds like advertisement. The things you find on the TV.


It would seem strange if America didn't hire people like the link above seeing as how they have almost everything in the book



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by IchiNiSan

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
reply to post by IchiNiSan
 





Yup, you guys can start turning ATS into a racistic board against the Chinese people.


You may not have noted, that NO ONE here is in any way racistic against the chinese people - weren't the students on Tiananmen chinese ? Aren't the Tibetians also Chinese in your ideology ? Knowing the ATS folks to some extend i guess it's save to say, that no one holds a grudge against the chinese people - it's the system that stinks, you know ? And the basic principles of single party states apply as much to Nazi germany as it does for China, North Korea and other nations.
Judging from your posts in this thread so far, i don't see "us" as the racists here, sorry.


comparing Chinese people with Nazis is racistic.
and look at the Aussie's post, if that is not racism, then redfine racism to whatever you want.


Yes, let's look at my post. Just to help you, here it is.


Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
He is comparing the Chinese members and Chinese population to the NSDAP --> Die Nationalsozialistische Deutsche ArbeiterPartei, in other words Hitler's Nazi party

INTOLERABLE!


Why?


Ps. It happens that I understand German and is pretty familiar with the European (&American) history.


So do a large number of the rest of us. So what. The reference was designed to be easy to decipher.


As a European born Chinese, comparing all Chinese with Nazis is plainout racistic and intolerable!


As an Australian-born Anglo-Saxon-Celt I really coulnd't care less if someone decides to generalise about citizens of the PRC. Those that turn up here (or those emigres who turn up here and identify themselves as such) have a habit of taking the standard small-mind syndrom of accepting no criticism of either their birth-nation or its leaders.

I love Australia. Doesn't mean I think the sun shone out of John Howard's arse.

The PRC has no business being in Tibet. Your government's policies there are criminal, racist and involve the siezure of territory, property and the subjugation of the local, indigenous population. Sounds a lot like the NSDAP to me.

en.wikipedia.org...


So, what were we looking for, exactly?

This

"I really coulnd't care less if someone decides to generalise about citizens of the PRC" ?

Or how about this...

"Those that turn up here (or those emigres who turn up here and identify themselves as such) have a habit of taking the standard small-mind syndrom of accepting no criticism of either their birth-nation or its leaders." ?

If that's all you've got, then all I'll say is "look at my avatar, so racist of me."

And if this is what you're itching to quote

"The PRC has no business being in Tibet. Your government's policies there are criminal, racist and involve the siezure of territory, property and the subjugation of the local, indigenous population. Sounds a lot like the NSDAP to me."

then you really missed the boat.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 09:54 PM
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reply to post by 27jd
 


If you care to get deeper into the muck and more propaganda go here

www.abovetopsecret.com...'





posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 10:03 PM
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reply to post by chinawhite
 


You are off topic again. Let us get back on topic with you answering a question I have asked before. Why have the chinese authorities not honored the seventeen point agreement?





posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by Witness2008
You are off topic again.


Oh please,

You brought it off-topic and was responding to your accusations.

Or are you working for the American government




Why have the chinese authorities not honored the seventeen point agreement?


You mean when the CIA backed a revoke in 1956?.

You mean how THEY violated the agreement?




posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 10:26 PM
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reply to post by chinawhite
 


It seems to me you look for every reason for your government to not honor it. Mao broke the agreement long before the involvement of the CIA.
Is there some reason china could not resurrect the agreement?.. or maybe china would just prefer to wipe Tibetans of the face of the earth? I lean toward the later which brings me to supporting a boycott of the olympics and all chinese goods.




posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by Witness2008
Mao broke the agreement long before the involvement of the CIA.



Where? When?, Who, How, Why?

Protests started in 1956 on the border of the Tibetan/Chinese border which is not in the Tibetan AP. It was owing to the fact that land reforms started and the lamas lost their power and their Tibetan slaves, this was supported by CIA money and Arms. 11,000 Tibetans were trained by the CIA to wage war and this protest eventually spread into Tibet proper.

After armed conflict and open rebellion 1959 thats when reforms actually started in Tibet proper, after the Lamas rebelled


I lean toward the later which brings me to supporting a boycott of the olympics and all chinese goods.


So what?. Consumers think we their feet.

And if you think your business strategy is based on discrediting Chinese policies on line so they would buy your candles, think again. Companies will then move to the next country like Vietnam, Africa etc. Anywhere to take advantage of cheap labor. This is obviously because no American in their right mine will work for less than $20 a hour without all these benefits which are unsustainable in the long term, eg the "American dream"



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 10:48 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 



I was going to type basically the same post word for word.
with the exception of some electronics I can get everything I need for a decent price and not made in china, And yes some of it costs a bit more, but it lasts longer, is higher quality and not full of lead or melamine, and keeps me from totally confusing my wants with my needs





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