Massacre in Tibet!

reply to post by HowlrunnerIV


Yup, you guys can start turning ATS into a racistic board against the Chinese people.

reply to post by IchiNiSan


Interesting take on Nero, Rome, violins and large, possibly deadly conflagrations.

Keep bleating while Lhasa burns.

reply to post by chinawhite

Its not semantics I confined it to a geographical area

I would still go with semantics, since you've been very aware, that the reports were talking about "the incident" not the location.

I was referring to this claim "claiming that more than 10,000 people had been killed at Tienanmen."

Which clearly did not
happen

Agreed, but as you can see, that was an eyewitness report from June 4th and we all now, how reliable eyewitness reports are, especially when the rage is still going on and everyone is in a shock state. The report on page 31 is from two weeks later and probably more realistic. And even 2600 deaths are intolerable.

But it doesn't prove my argument wrong either. I was pointing to the fact that media over exaggerates things which included claiming that thousands were killed IN Tienanmen square.

For the "IN Tiananmen", please read above.For the fact that most mainstream journalists are sensationalistic and exaggerating - i completely agree and that's why it's so nice to have the internet and places like ATS, we don't have to rely on the mainstream anymore and the informations about the massacre apart from said mainstream are very reliable.

Crime yes. But would you steal bread if you were hungry?. If those actions weren't taken China would have been in civil war. Yes civil war.

I think we're more on common ground, then you imagine. I agree to a certain extend, that measures had to be taken, what deeply botheres me is the "how" and the severity of the measures. The students had and have some valid points and they've literally been crushed - no dissent allowed. Not very far from what's happening in Tibet now, instead of talking, you got violence which breeds more violence etc...and ultimately it leads to the point, where China is viewed as an still oppressive, cruel state.
Now, do i think, that the students should have got all they wanted instantly ? No, but i still believe in the basic human concept of debating and that's what should have happened, even if the party would have had to step back on a few of their points.
Same with the situation in Tibet - personally i think, that an independent Tibet wouldn't be able to stand on it's own feet as it is now, but i fully acknowledge and support their complete autonomy while still being a part of China. Also i think, that a western style democracy wouldn't be the best solution for a China as it is today.

Any what about the regimes the US has supported over the years and are still supporting?. What about the crimes committed by so called democratic countries in the past, because they happened before means there is no recognition that it happened?

Hey, the failures of the western nations are another story, but that's not what we're talking about here. I was just comparing the loyality to a one-party system in different ideologies - and it's basically the same, even if IchiNiSan despises me for saying that.

reply to post by IchiNiSan

Yup, you guys can start turning ATS into a racistic board against the Chinese people.

You may not have noted, that NO ONE here is in any way racistic against the chinese people - weren't the students on Tiananmen chinese ? Aren't the Tibetians also Chinese in your ideology ? Knowing the ATS folks to some extend i guess it's save to say, that no one holds a grudge against the chinese people - it's the system that stinks, you know ? And the basic principles of single party states apply as much to Nazi germany as it does for China, North Korea and other nations.
Judging from your posts in this thread so far, i don't see "us" as the racists here, sorry.

Originally posted by chinawhite
Any what about the regimes the US has supported over the years and are still supporting?. What about the crimes committed by so called democratic countries in the past, because they happened before means there is no recognition that it happened?

This thread is about China and Tibet, not about the US or any other country, if you feel like discussing human right violations of the US, please start another thread.

Once again my questions:

Elaborate shortly why:

-China occupies Tibet.
-China does not show a single picture or tape in Chinese media of the violent way in which its troops deal with the Tibetan protesters.
-China does not allow the democratic principle of having the right to demonstrate
-China does not allow any criticism (we all know the examples of journalists put in prison or who are under 24h surveillance for writing articles against the interest of the Chinese government).
-China does block access to objective news sources (from Europe, as the US has no objective media) Chinese friends told me they cannot even browse the BBC news website when they are in China.

Is it really that hard to admit the wrongdoings of China?

[edit on 18-3-2008 by Mdv2]

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
reply to post by IchiNiSan

 

Yup, you guys can start turning ATS into a racistic board against the Chinese people.

You may not have noted, that NO ONE here is in any way racistic against the chinese people - weren't the students on Tiananmen chinese ? Aren't the Tibetians also Chinese in your ideology ? Knowing the ATS folks to some extend i guess it's save to say, that no one holds a grudge against the chinese people - it's the system that stinks, you know ? And the basic principles of single party states apply as much to Nazi germany as it does for China, North Korea and other nations.
Judging from your posts in this thread so far, i don't see "us" as the racists here, sorry.

comparing Chinese people with Nazis is racistic.
and look at the Aussie's post, if that is not racism, then redfine racism to whatever you want.

And you can quote me where I was racistic, I will look into it, and if neccesary apologize for it if I indeed did it in one of my overheated posts

Watch this video (I am sorry for our Chinese based members as their government has blocked access to youtube):

BEIJING (AFP) — Access to YouTube in China was denied on Sunday after footage of recent deadly protests in Tibet appeared on the video posting site.

Attempts to call up the site met with a blank screen and an error message saying the web page could not be displayed.

The access problems came after video clips began appearing on the site showing violent unrest in the Tibetan capital Lhasa that triggered a virtual lockdown of the city by security forces.

Source

[edit on 18-3-2008 by Mdv2]

reply to post by IchiNiSan

comparing Chinese people with Nazis is racistic

While this has not been done, i wouldn't actually call it racistic to do so. But that's a matter of definition and pretty pointless. Same with your posts - while not being specifically racistic, a sensible mind could see a little chinese superiority mentality in them or at least between the lines.
Pulling out the racism card hasn't helped anyone in any debate - and while this thread had some warnings for "both sides", i would prefer the debate to go on and stay within the T&C of ATS.
I try to explain it once again for you - i wasn't referring to the people per se, but to the mindsets of people living and supporting a single party state, if you like it better, i'll compare it to stalinist sowjetunion - another ideology, same crimes, same bastards at the top. Now, would that also be racist ?

And as hard as i'm trying, i can't find any racism in HowlrunnerIV's post (well, ok the avatar IS distractingly nice) - sure, he generalized a bit, but your views on americans isn't that unbiased either.

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
Agreed, but as you can see, that was an eyewitness report from June 4th and we all now, how reliable eyewitness reports are, especially when the rage is still going on and everyone is in a shock state.

What my problem is not the fact that they are inaccurate, its the fact that those inaccuracies have never been rectified. There is no problem with people saying things in the heat of the movement full of emotion and angry rhetoric, but when it dies down you should at least release a statement stating what truthfully happened

what deeply botheres me is the "how" and the severity of the measures.

The protest had been going on for over 3 months and was really stopping the nation. The Chinese government did take a soft soft approach and sent in soldiers who didn't want to fight many citizens pleading successfully for them to leave which they did. What actually happened next was the wave of about 2 million disgruntled manual labors (many of then from surrounding provinces) who were protesting on the lack of wages and conditions which happened in China owing to the opening of its economies to reforms and the fact that many had found themselves out of work.

A comparison can be made to the French Revolution much like the policies of Robespierre and the Sans culottes during the radical period of the French revolution when the radical speech of the workers took over. What unfortunately happened was a confrontation between the workers and the army. And if government figures were to be believed as many soldiers as civilians died fighting in the streets. There is a lack of education among Chinese people which I admit and which can only be changed with periods of education of moral values which can just be taught.

China obviously has changed a great deal and put in place measures like Anti-riot teams with Rubber bullets, and acting to prevent a riot from growing as large as Tienanmen which might require the use of force once again.

I see a valid comparison between South Korea which only recently became a democratic country. You might not know this but in 1980 South Korea had a riot pretty much on the same lines as Tienanmen called the Gwangju massacre. It seemed like they were going back a step during that time but then 12 years latter became much more open and now is one of the most free societies in the world

The students had and have some valid points and they've literally been crushed - no dissent allowed.

Yes, but as you are aware from internet forums the complexity of changing someones opinion.

HowlrunnerIV,

I seem to be your respected foe. I find that quite a complement as I respect your opinion highly, although agree with little of them.

Mdv, reply tomorrow

Everyone, who pays close-attention to the world's governments knows: Most (if not) all countries have corrupted governments, who have killed many of their people & foreigners. You can't hide the truth about the governments of this world. They're killers, and they will continue to kill and/or attack their enemies.

[edit on 18-3-2008 by Chad Andrew]

This is happening all the time all over the world. Still, nothing gets righteous student bloggers foaming at the mouth like the word Tibet does, after all it's usually one of the destinations for the backpacking gap year.

[edit on 18-3-2008 by unnamedninja]

A few people have ask why china wont let Tibet go. Here’s why

For China, Tibet matters in so many ways, and while Beijing cannot allow the demonstrators to win, it does not want to crush the uprising with too much public violence.

Protesters against Chinese ruleIf Tibet is given greater autonomy it will encourage people to push on with calls for full independence.

The recent recognition of Kosovo as an independent state sent shivers through the Chinese establishment.

If Kosovo, why not Tibet, and why not the Muslim areas of China? If that began to happen, China could unravel.

news.sky.com...

Tibet matters to China on the security level as well. It acts as a buffer state with India and allows China to have heavy military equipment in the Himalayas.

This secures China's Eastern core - the fertile areas around the three rivers, the Yangtze, Yellow and Pearl.

And finally, Tibet matters because it will become the rallying call for those seeking to embarrass China in the run-up to and during the Olympic Games.

Advertisement

From now on, we will see a steady flow of anti-Chinese publicity. Wherever and whenever demonstrators can embarrass China they will do so, and the protests will not only be from the Free Tibet movement.

On the subject of "Free Tibet", the legal status of Tibet is a diplomatic minefield.

The Chinese, supported by Russia, India, the USA and many other countries regards Tibet as a part of the sovereign state of China. The Chinese call it the "autonomous region".

The Free Tibet movement disagrees, saying Tibet is a country occupied by China which is moving in settlers to colonise it.


The Dalai LamaThe Tibet Government In Exile, led by the Dalai Lama, would accept enhanced autonomy but stops short of calling for full independence. It realises that as Beijing regards independence as a non-starter, it needs to play a longer game.

That game is played despite the clear evidence that there have been long periods of Tibetan sovereignty and that Tibet has a different language, culture and religion to China.

But the culture is slowly changing. Beijing has brought in thousands of settlers from the Han Chinese population.

They are now dominant in the commercial sector in the capital Lhasa and this has exacerbated tensions.

The new railway line the Chinese have built will only accelerate the rate of arrival of the Han.

Without question China has improved living standards in Tibet since troops moved in the 1950s.

But the improvements have come at a cost those who take the 'Free Tibet' view find unacceptable.

While China denies it has smashed monasteries, beaten up monks and systematically suppressed Tibetan freedoms, human rights organizations say they have evidence of such abuses.


[edit on 18/3/08 by iammonkey]

Originally posted by chinawhite
Any what about the regimes the US has supported over the years and are still supporting?.

No kidding, we've made many alliances that turn out to be mistakes that come back to haunt us, perhaps this was one as well....

www.history.army.mil...

reply to post by 27jd


I agree with the bad choices we have made in the past as to what governments we would rub elbows with. Our only connection to china is the trade between us which it seems is pretty one sided. If americans want to cut the ties all we need do is stop buying the crap that comes from china. No offense to chinese people but your products are substandard and made with slave wages and child labor.

reply to post by Witness2008


Yeah, I know currently our connection is trade based, but I understood the poster to be referring to military alliances in the past, and I was pointing out the one we had with them against the Japanese in WWII...

I find it..

Odd..

That many of these Chinese posters are almost never on ATS until a thread pops up about Chinese issues...

Odd also that China would even allow access to a site like ATS in China.

Anyways,

the majority of the Chinese here are saying the same thing, moving away from the real issue, bantering calls of racism and declaring that because the US is in Iraq its ok for China to murder Tibetans..

How the hell did China of all countries get the Olympics..

reply to post by Rockpuck


Yeah, I thought about that too. Usually, we have a broader range of opinion coming from most countries represented here on ATS. Why would the average Chinese Joe (or Wen) spend so much time presenting their governments case as has been done on this thread, I also figured this site wouldn't be available widely there, but I may be wrong...

reply to post by 27jd


This whole thread is bursting at the seams with chinese propaganda, this link may explain what is going on here between ATS and our chinese friends.

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 18-3-2008 by Witness2008]

reply to post by Witness2008


Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for the link though, it certainly would seem consistent with what we see here, also I notice chinawhite's sig is riddled with what appears to be Chinese government ads, another thing you don't really see much from other countries, none of us are that proud, lol.

Sorry Jingjing, it won't work here, you're not very effective at psychological warfare, and attempting it on a site where we are all suspected of being government agents at some point, makes it even more difficult when it's almost glaringly obvious you are one. You'd be better off trying what the Japanese did on the Chinpokomon episode of South Park and compliment the size of our genitals over and over until we are so flattered that we ignore the attrocities of your government.

[edit on 18-3-2008 by 27jd]