Massacre in Tibet!

Good points Sky...

I think i will be the first to say that your guys english is fantastic.

And because your English is fantastic, we can have this discustion.

Keep us informed

reply to post by Witness2008


"WE" that is a big word, don't toss everyone in the same pot.

reply to post by Odessit


Could you clarify please. I re-read my post and did not see the word "WE".

Originally posted by TKainZero
Good points Sky...

I think i will be the first to say that your guys english is fantastic.

And because your English is fantastic, we can have this discustion.

Keep us informed

yeah. i kind learn my english by watching american TV series and movie.
so, my words mightbe sound a little bit dramatic.

and since moderator has deleted my former post because of the violation of certain terms. i think it's necessary to repost this image to backup my words. and convince people how manipulated the US media is.

i hope it's not because of this picture that got my post deleted.


[edit on 17-3-2008 by zhangxi0183]

reply to post by zhangxi0183


What are we looking for there? Also, the CNN photo just cuts more to the left, the "original photo" appears to be cut to the right since that white vehicle is left out, so it's not the entire photo either....

CCTV news.

Schools are back in operation, commerce is running again. Or I thought there was a "bloodbath". Tibet has really modernised since the 1990s. Looks reminiscent of old macau with the style of shops, capitalism in action





Tibet: Inferno under Dalai Lama & aristoric rule

National Geographic view on Tibet

Originally posted by IAF101
No name presented by you here or your government.

The Picture is From AP NOT the Chinese government. The picture has nothing to do with the chinese government. It was neither released by them nor was it taken by them but a independent organization .

FACT #1
Picture is hosted by AP an American website

Fact #2
The Chinese media NEVER used this picture or released it

The Chinese government would never release photos of people burning the Chinese flag

Already explained over and over again.

Yet doesn't disprove the fact that it was taken during a protest of Tibetans which means he was beaten by Tibetans and NOT the government


Chinese Police on the 14th. Hardly in a position to quell the rioters. The policeman in the first picture is on his hands has been almost stoned to death and can barely get on his feet

Nobody is protesting anything

So why would there be a police presence there if they wont protesting?.

You destroyed your own argument.

The mere fact he was beaten up when there was a sign of rioting obviously points to the fact that they were not in a area of police control. Much less on the 14th

Expect from me to not answer any

You first said you hadn't read the caption and assumed he was dead, yet on the line IMMEDIATELY under it you claimed you posted that picture because it implied he was Tibetan. Which proves that you didn't read the caption and posted a random person on the ground saying his Tibetan

You also posted a Picture of Nepalese police fighting the Tibetans and said they were Chinese police in the process of putting down "peaceful" protesters. This is because you never read the caption and post pictures without knowing the story

There are no Western Media sources reporting from Tibet, unless you can prove otherwise. All footage and pictures supplied are from the Chinese media so far.

So what is this then?. Watermarked by AFP . Why would the chinese take a picture and post it of the "crackdown". Not to mention that they watermarked it for copyright purposes



Images taken BY WESTERN JOURNALIST, hence the copyright watermark. There are foreign journalist in Tibetan and the pictures released by AP and other western countries are from WESTERN sources. The Chinese new agency is not running the pictures, the WEST is.


Where is the crackdown. Right in the middle of Lhasa. I thought HUNDREDS had died. But once again NO EVIDENCE of any shooting or deaths.










This picture was taken by a WESTERN photographer and stolen by CNN which then modified it. The onus of truth is ON YOU to provide a Chinese news agency which is running that picture

Releasing the names of the dead is standard procedure to identify the victims as anybody would do if they were genuinly killed.

How are they to release names when the bodies have been burnt beyond recognition. Names are NEVER released in Chinese TV, Not the Coal mine accidents, Not SARS, Not even the floods or the Snowstorms which hit china which killed ten's of people. The PRC government even censors anti-japanese protests and stopped the ensuring riots from occuring, it has nothing to do with "hiding" information but keeping order

"Confirmed, regarding number of bodies, is 80," spokesperson Thubten Samphel told reporters from a Dharamsala temple. Another official, Tenzin Taklha, said most would have been Tibetans.

Spokesmen from Tibet acknowledges himself that THERE were Chinese people killed. This came from the same report which he "Confirmed" 80 people dead

Independent journalism either domestic or international . None of which exists in this case.

The US embassy said it had received reports of gunfire in Lhasa and advised its citizens to stay indoors.

Smh.com

If the US embassy is warning its citizens not to go out then the Chinese army wont let them out and be responsible for their injury or death.

And what good would that have done for China?.

During the build up to the Tienanmen Riots, China let western journalist in and they reporteds 10,000s of deaths in Tienanmen square even though NO ONE was ever killed in Tienanmen square.

Another example is the media exaggeration of the deaths during Hurricane Katrina which was about 1000 or less. Which is another point about how the media lies about their information

Katrina death toll may be 10,000 as Bush vows help
Link

I would be glad to when there are independent journalists allowed in Tibet to report the events.

You stilled harped on about not finding pictures yet you found one but claim there are no western journalist or a "supposed" Chinese blockade

It shows him only kicking down the shutters.

Only?. You claimed that monks were only having peaceful protests which is why I posted the video in DIRECT reply

You yourself posted a picture that both CNN and your CCTV used claiming that CNN distorted the image.

CCTV?.

Where does the picture say CCTV?

Foreign journalists have been banned from traveling to Tibet and prevented by the police from reporting on protests by Tibetans

Want more proof ??

Of yeah,

Why should I take their word on it. I was looking for more of a official confirmation, but the fact that pictures in western sites are being taken by Western journalist is proof enough

Those numbers are wrong as my independent links have shown unlike your wordpress blogs.

Independent links are NOT American ones.

This has everything to do with the Tibet. Its a argument of human rights not a thread just to bash China thats why there are current and historical examples to show in comparison to these figures

Vietnam = 3 million
Iraq = 1 million and growing

Originally posted by IAF101
now your saying that I said he wasnt dead ??

I never said anything of that sort. I call you out on this yet you NEVER quote me

Atlantic? China ? Good god!

The world is obvious round and there is TWO ways to go to anywhere

Simple really. Everything is NOT American centric

Originally posted by IAF101
using past precedence as justification

America used 9/11 as past precedence for invading Iraq. What is the difference between that and this



[edit on 18-3-2008 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by IAF101
The images show CLEAR proof that the Chinese military or military police fired at people. There are many corpses with bullet wounds.

They are called RUBBER bullets.

Click on the external image links.

Contains gore


www.police-brutality.net...

Israeli doctors warn against rubber bullets

Rubber bullets were used for the first time by British forces in Northern Ireland in 1970. They were intended to inflict superficial, painful injuries, deterring demonstrators from further action but avoiding the risk of serious injury and death associated with conventional bullets.

However, a retrospective study of 595 casualties admitted to hospitals in Israel during demonstrations by Israeli Arabs in October 2002 showed that rubber bullets result in severe injury and death in "a substantial number of people."

Analysis of medical records for 151 casualties with injuries proved to be caused by rubber bullets showed that 61% had blunt injuries and 39% had penetrating injuries. Two people died after penetrating ocular injuries into the brain and one died as a result of postoperative aspiration after a knee injury (Lancet 2002;359:1795-800).

More than half the people whose records were analysed had injuries to the head, face, chest, back, and abdomen. Resistance of the body surface at the point of impact was the most important factor in determining the severity of an injury and whether it was blunt or penetrating.

The researchers, who included the chief physician of the Israeli Police Force, concluded: "Inaccuracy of rubber bullets and improper aiming and range of use resulted in severe injury and death in a substantial number of people. This ammunition should therefore not be considered a safe method of crowd control."

Link

Similar situation in Australia. These guys have Molotov cocktails and the Chinese media is reporting lots of burns to Chinese police officers. They like any other security staff have every right to defend themselves

Police officer kills knife attacker in street

A senior police officer shot dead a man in Sydney's south late yesterday after trying to stop a knife attack on a busy shopping strip.

Police said the shooting occurred just after 3pm on Belmore Road in Riverwood when the officer, an inspector, tried to stop the man, aged in his early 30s, as he stabbed another man.

Separate investigations by the independent critical incident team, local detectives and the coroner were under way last night.

Superintendent Denis Clifford said: "The officer was returning back to the station, from a routine job when he chanced upon the fight. He attempted to intervene between the two men, one of whom was holding a knife.

"He asked the man to put down his knife. The officer called on the man to drop the knife, the person refused to do so and the officer discharged his firearm."

www.smh.com.au...

Looting in progress

reply to post by chinawhite

even though NO ONE was ever killed in Tienanmen square.

Now if that isn't the worst piece of revisionism i've seen so far. While the totals are debatable, even the official report of Chen Xitong admitted 200 dead civilians and several dozen dead soldiers, while the chinese red cross reported 2600 deaths. Sure, imperialist propaganda, just like this list of the victims

On the other hand, the faith in their party displayed by the chinese members here, makes the success of the nsdap 1933-1945 once again easier to understand for me. Not meant to be insulting, just interesting to witness at first hand.

Would love to put this on a little video screen but don’t know how to. Any
Way its, china warns Tibet deadline over. From sky news u.k
video.news.sky.com.../skynews/latest/flash/tibet_p3896.flv


[edit on 18/3/08 by iammonkey]

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
Now if that isn't the worst piece of revisionism i've seen so far. While the totals are debatable, even the official report of Chen Xitong admitted 200 dead civilians and several dozen dead soldiers, while the chinese red cross reported 2600 deaths. Sure, imperialist propaganda, just like this list of the victims

Read what I said before you accuse me of anything such as revisionism.


I said "in Tienanmen Square"


There was no such thing as the Tienanmen Square massacre, because no one was ever killed there. Of course there were deaths that day but the media over played it and over dramatized what actually happened. The US intelligence agency gives a estimate of 400 or so deaths which is close to the 200~300 figure that the Chinese government released. There was a equal amount of dead para-military soldiers because the protesters weren't democracy seeking students but 2 million students + equal or greater amount of construction workers protesting on the lack of living standards. Chinese economic liberation had just begun in the south and had not reached the North so their was a great disparity of wealth. Long story involving a large crowd with soldiers ordered not to fire while been overwhelmed


If you actually research history about Tienanmen Square. The last 5000 students were filmed by a spainish film crew organized by the government leaving Tienanmen Square. If you try hard enough you can find the film on a CCTV achieve or some website. Or these eyewitness accounts by the protesters given to the American embassy which is no where near Tienanmen. Most of the battles happened around Tienanmen square not directly in it. The battles happened in Changan Boulevard which is the road which leads to Tienanmen and the road which the PLA took to the center

Like their reliable sources.
"Embassy officials also report conversations with angry citizens, some "claiming that more than 10,000 people had been killed at Tienanmen." One woman claimed to have witnessed a tank running over 11 people. "

"Foreign journalists report seeing fleeing protesters shot in the back"

That makes perfect sense seeing as how I actually saw the last protesters leaving the square. That's the problem with "western" or student accounts. they don't back their claims up with photos or movie shots

Read the actual document 31. I supplied one which i outlined in a square box

It says. "The PLA did not fire directly on students gathered around the martyrs monument on Tienanmen square. Troops beat, and probably killed some students after they left the square" .

These eyewitness accounts are coming from the actual protesters not the Chinese government. They themselves admit that no action actually happened in Tienanmen square but around the square. While you go to Tienanmen square it is open space but you go around the outside there is places to hide or get cover from

And again i refer to document 31

The battles waged around the square rather than on it. Witnesses present at the martyrs monument describe a errie lack of action on the square itself

If the pictures are to small go to www.gwu.edu...

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
reply to post by chinawhite

 

even though NO ONE was ever killed in Tienanmen square.

On the other hand, the faith in their party displayed by the chinese members here, makes the success of the nsdap 1933-1945 once again easier to understand for me. Not meant to be insulting, just interesting to witness at first hand.

You are insulting a whole group of people, and a whole ethnic group of people, a whole nation! You should not roll over all Chinese members of ATS in one corner and compare us with the NAZIS. Intolerable.



[edit on 18/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

[edit on 18/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
On the other hand, the faith in their party displayed by the chinese members here

What party?.

The Australian Labor party?

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
On the other hand, the faith in their party displayed by the chinese members here

What party?.

The Australian Labor party?

He is comparing the Chinese members and Chinese population to the NSDAP --> Die Nationalsozialistische Deutsche ArbeiterPartei, in other words Hitler's Nazi party

INTOLERABLE!

Ps. It happens that I understand German and is pretty familiar with the European (&American) history. As a European born Chinese, comparing all Chinese with Nazis is plainout racistic and intolerable!




[edit on 18/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

reply to post by chinawhite


And to you Chinawhite, I am also a Chinese fellow loving my country, but I would advice to just leave this whole discussion with brain-washed non-Chinese, who either will not believe or wanna listen to the other side of the story anyhow or can profit off by making more people anti-Chinese so their local businesses might strive again (ironically is that these kinds of people will be so disappointed when his local competitors starts to import even cheaper products from Vietnam, or later on from Africa.)

To all these Chinese members defending China's policies, elaborate shortly why:

China occupies Tibet.
China does not show a single picture or tape in Chinese media of the violentl way in which its troops deal with the Tibetan protesters. In contrast, they only show how Tibetan protesters damage buildings and vehicles, etc.
China does not allow the democratic principle of having the right to demonstrate
China does not allow any criticism (we all know the examples of journalists put in prison or who are under 24h surveillance for writing articles against the interest of the Chinese government).
China does block access to objective news sources (from Europe, as the US has no objective media) Chinese friends told me they cannot even browse the BBC news website when they are in China.

reply to post by chinawhite

I said "in Tienanmen Square"

Semantics, nothing more. You know, the entire incident is known as "Tiananmen square massacre" and not "Tiananmen square and nearby streets massacre".

That's the problem with "western" or student accounts. they don't back their claims up with photos or movie shots

Media ? No problem, just follow the links.

video.google.de...

video.google.de...

video.google.de...

video.google.de...

It says. "The PLA did not fire directly on students gathered around the martyrs monument on Tienanmen square. Troops beat, and probably killed some students after they left the square

It also says, that

These clashes led to high civilian casualties as troops fired directly at Beijing citizens

Soldiers in an armoured column of tanks and APC's that entered Tiananmen from the east after June 4th also fired indiscriminately at crowds along the route

Again, just because it was not on the square, it still belongs to the incident on June 4th and it still remains a crime.

You should not roll over all Chinese members of ATS in one corner and compare us with the NAZIS.

While i personally think, that there are several similarities, it was not meant as an insult to all chinese people. If the shoe fits, put it on. I'd include every communist ruled country into the analogy - it's not about the specific ideology, it's about party loyalty and ignorance of everything against the leading partys words.

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
Semantics, nothing more.

You accused me of revisionism which is practically calling me a liar, which you were proven wrong. Its not semantics I confined it to a geographical area

Media ? No problem, just follow the links.

I was referring to this claim
""claiming that more than 10,000 people had been killed at Tienanmen."

Which clearly did not happen

Again, just because it was not on the square, it still belongs to the incident on June 4th and it still remains a crime.

But it doesn't prove my argument wrong either. I was pointing to the fact that media over exaggerates things which included claiming that thousands were killed IN Tienanmen square.

Crime yes. But would you steal bread if you were hungry?. If those actions weren't taken China would have been in civil war. Yes civil war.

1989 was just some decades after a almost 200 year civil war in China. Topple the CCCP thats fine but who replaces them?. Chinese generals?. American soldiers or even Soviet soldiers?. I would rather have taken these actions for economic prosperity than the thought of American soldiers on Chinese land. Imagine Vietnam but much larger and much bloodier. That was a real possibility at that time.

I'd include every communist ruled country into the analogy

Any what about the regimes the US has supported over the years and are still supporting?. What about the crimes committed by so called democratic countries in the past, because they happened before means there is no recognition that it happened?

For decades the Australian government refuses to admit to the Australian stolen generation and it took almost a century for the Australians to admit that this event occurred. What about the past minorities that have been wiped out from the world, where is there recognition

[edit on 18-3-2008 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
He is comparing the Chinese members and Chinese population to the NSDAP --> Die Nationalsozialistische Deutsche ArbeiterPartei, in other words Hitler's Nazi party

INTOLERABLE!

Why?

Ps. It happens that I understand German and is pretty familiar with the European (&American) history.

So do a large number of the rest of us. So what. The reference was designed to be easy to decipher.

As a European born Chinese, comparing all Chinese with Nazis is plainout racistic and intolerable!

As an Australian-born Anglo-Saxon-Celt I really coulnd't care less if someone decides to generalise about citizens of the PRC. Those that turn up here (or those emigres who turn up here and identify themselves as such) have a habit of taking the standard small-mind syndrom of accepting no criticism of either their birth-nation or its leaders.

I love Australia. Doesn't mean I think the sun shone out of John Howard's arse.

The PRC has no business being in Tibet. Your government's policies there are criminal, racist and involve the siezure of territory, property and the subjugation of the local, indigenous population. Sounds a lot like the NSDAP to me.

en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 18-3-2008 by HowlrunnerIV]

double bloody post


[edit on 18-3-2008 by HowlrunnerIV]