Any Secret Societies that don't require you to pledge on the Bible?

reply to post by senrak

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"regard the Bible as nothing BUT that . . .moral teachings."

There is always a BUT, what about Christ? After all, he is the main focus of the Holy Bible. Or are you only taking the good book for it's moral teachings in reference to a "supreme being"?

LOL, I wasn't banned and it's plain to see that you have the same IP address. Hmm, your society must be running things around here eh?

reply to post by senrak

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"I therefore bid you adieu. "

How scholary...

No, I don't. Of course you have the right to believe what you want to. I'm going to have to look up hubrus because I really don't understand that concept. What do you mean by Heaven has many rooms? At my wifes grandmothers funeral, the funeral home there was filled with Freemason symbols and the pastor there mentioned the same thing. He also mentioned during his speech that it was ok to question everything. Which I thought was kind of sad because the funeral speech should have been more about her grandmother rather then his foolish pride on freemasonry. So when you refer to the many different rooms are you referring to the "Grand Lodge" in the sky and do you think that they are the stars, planets or what actually? See I also find that sad because I would like to think that we are all unified in heaven and praise our Lord together, not seperated like we are here on earth. Just my 3 cents.

I could be wrong, but I sense that you are intentionally baiting here. I'll bite, but if it is what it seems I will have to put you on ignore. We'll see.



There are also lots of flowers usually at funerals. Do you know that the origins of using flowers at funerals may have been pagan? Does this equally get your attention and offend you?



Invalid line of argument because there is no freemason teaching on explicitly questioning everything that I am aware of, and this line of logic is something that is centuries old.

But wait a minute!



The bible also tells you to question things. Will you now retract your self-righteous comments? Or is this really all a not-so-clever ruse used by an anti-mason to bait masons on the board?

reply to post by senrak

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Right.. First off, I could care less quite frankly what your link says. An Agnostic must believe in some form of God, what ever it may be, and however insignificant it may be in YOUR eyes, it is a God, some form of God, however confused or not.

If you recall the First degree LECTURE you would know that the only form of beliefs strictly DENIED are ATHEISM not AGNOSTISM .. as many Masons in the 1600's through the 1800's where Deist (explained Agnostics) .. I find it absurd that a Masons would make such an ignorant remark.



Right. How about some BS on that one huh? I find it personally insulting that an Agnostic is not worthy to sit in lodge with you.



Tell me.. is "I don't know" different then "no, there is no God" ? .. Personally, maybe its just me.. but perhaps Masonry is to expand the teachings of God? Masonry its self is Deist in nature, and thus, agnostic in nature. There is a God, the God is what ever you believe it is.. that is your choice.

THAT IS AGNOSTIC.



/he is to respond with what is said in his heart.. however, I know that we tell the new member what to say "in god" .. if we did not, we would get all sorts of answers.

In either way, an agnostic would believe in God, not in the non-exisistance in God....

Maybe that is not good enough for you? Perhaps you prefer only men who believe in 2000 year old books written on parables and fables?



What is God? Is he to be exactly defined by all men?



Do you believe I am a good Mason? Do you believe I represent Masonry in the upmost best character?



From a Christian I expect no better.. however, from a Deist I will tell you there is little to no difference .. as most Agnostics are Deist.



It was aimed at you. And all other Christian Masons.



Apparently my brother, an undefined God is no better to you then dirt on the ground. Something I resent. My God is not defined by YOUR words, or your teachings, it is what it is, and it is not clearly defined.. but looking into my self, I know clearly what God is.

I doubt that is good enough an answer, as it does not follow any theological line of thought.



LOL .. so long as they FOLLOW some FORM of theological belief system right?



I can assure you my brother, I know more about Agnosticism and Deism then you could dream of.

I believe I explained what the relationship was between the two, far better then your little Wiki site ever could have.



I believe your arrogance and your theocratic superiority shine through your posts.



Your neither, nor where you either.



Read my posts above..



Because.. an unclear vision of God is unworthy? Regardless of a belief in existence, because it does not follow YOUR guidelines to theocratic law, it is unworthy? This is the bigotry to which I speak..

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

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Hey Fitz, I looked up Hubris and found that you probably think that religions or religous people like myself have an overwhelming or exaggerated pride that is not pleasing to the "real" God. Am I off base?

Do you think that Jesus Christ is an exaggeration or do you feel that he was God in the flesh like I do? If that's you in the picture then you know just as well as I do that everybody in this country has a right to believe what they want to believe, as long as it is not destructive.

Edited to add: Actually, you got me on this one. You'll have to forgive me because I am slow at this time in the morning, lol. It wouldn't matter who my lord was based on hubris because my lord Jesus Christ even said in the bible that we should not judge one another and yet, here I am trying to prove that I am right and you are wrong (again). I hate to admit when I am wrong but I am and for that I am sorry once again! I am quite sure that what I am doing on this forum is displeasing to Jesus Christ. So thanks for pointing that out brother.


[edit on 16-3-2008 by Straighten Arrow]

reply to post by Rockpuck

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Just an observation if I may, and it could be bias but I doubt it. The trend that I see from non-Christian freemasons toward any "Christian" freemason is that whenever they discuss Christ openly as he is in the Holy Bible that there seems to be some sort of anger or hotility portrayed by the non-Christian freemason toward the "Christian" freemason.

Just an observation so don't shoot the messenger.

reply to post by pacificwind

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It's all irrelevant, I've already told my wife how strongly that I feel about not having my funeral held by him or any other freemason for that fact. I may be a little selfish here but I would like the sermon to be told by a man of Christ and not of a Supreme Being. I would also like the sermon to be about me, my friends, and my family. Not a lesson on the thinking of freemasonry. Sorry bub, but I have to go with my gut feeling on this one so put me on iggy. Later gator.

This is the crux of our disagreement, my brother. What YOU are calling an Agnostic is apparently not how agnosticims is in actuality defined.

Dictionary definitions of Agnostic

Houghton Mifflin: "One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."

Columbia encyclopedia: "[A belief] that the existence of God cannot be logically proved or disproved. Agnosticism is not to be confused with atheism which asserts that there is no God."

Wikipedia: A belief that the truth values of certain claims -- particularly theological claims regarding the existence of God, gods, or deities -- are unknown, inherently unknowable, or incoherent, and therefore, irrelevant to life."

Merriam-Webster: "A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god."

Die.net: "One who professes ignorance, or denies that we have any knowledge, save of phenomena; one who supports agnosticism, neither affirming nor denying the existence of a personal Deity, a future life, etc."

Are all these sources wrong? Or are we mixing up some terms?



I'm quite proficient in the first degree and in American history. As such I am well aware that many of our founding fathers who were Masons were deists.



and I find it absurd that you've openly and hostiley attacked me and are putting words in my mouth. See below.



Right. How about some BS on that one huh? I find it personally insulting that an Agnostic is not worthy to sit in lodge with you.

Wow, calm down dude. Senrak was not attacking you, agnostics, or anyone. He was simply stating something that is blatantly obvious, even to a non-Mason like me. An agnostic, by definition, cannot in all good conscience make an obligation that requires belief in a "Supreme Being." If someone were to take the obligations and say that they "Placed their faith in God" and were retaining a skeptical or doubtful outlook, wouldn't this make them a hypocrite? As I understand it, a prospective Freemason must determine for himself whether he is worthy of entry. To me, this would almost be a personal test, as your brothers are taking you at your word that you believe in a Supreme Being. To believe any differently would be deceitful. A "vague believer" could only make "vague obligations."

An agnostic theist, while closer to the mark, is still one that retains a certain degree of skepticism. An agnostic theist still claims that he/she cannot definitively say that a Supreme Being exists.

Obviously your belief system is compromised by these facts.

Senrak is not attacking other belief systems, and is certainly not victimising agnostics.

This belief that agnostics cannot enter the Lodge seems to be institutionalised within much of organised Freemasonry.

Grand Lodge of Massachusetts

The Masonic Trowel





If you are only saying it because you are told to and do not in your heart believe it, you would be deceptive wouldn't you? Deceptive to the Lodge and to yourself.



Actually, "I don't know," would be the correct answer. If an agnostic believed in a Supreme being, they wouldn't be an agnostic.





I thought it was aimed at me. It was actually the last line from a paragraph I had written concerning Lodges where an agnostic would be accepted. I scrubbed the paragraph, but accidentally left that last line. Sorry, my bad.



If you know, within yourself, clearly what God is, then it is clearly defined. Yet you state that it is not clearly defined. So which is it?





Are you sure of that?





Sorry Rockpuck, I think I would have to listen to the man with more experience in the field. This is something I do all the time. I think they call it "respecting ones elders." Senrak, in my brief time chatting to him, has garnered a great deal of my respect. It is Freemasons like him that have allayed many of my suspicions about Freemasonry. How long have you been in the club? I believe Senrak has been a Mason for nigh on twenty years, and has studied the subject of Freemasonry quite voraciously. I think you would do well to listen to the man in a reasonable fashion.

When I was a younger man, I went through a phase of thinking I knew it all. Now it's a matter of "Seems like the more I think I know, the more I find I don't."



[edit on 16/3/2008 by Beelzebubba]

My quote was "his Father's house has many rooms". It should've read has many mansions. My bad for working from memory.

Even so, I think the meaning comes out the same

Most contemporary versions of the Bible say "dwelling places"

Heck, there's probably even room for a few of us Masons, but don't tell anyone I said that.

reply to post by senrak

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Indeed. In any case, Straighten Arrow is trolling and I don't much feel like engaging a troll. I'm just trying to remember whose style and syntax he reminds me of. Could SA be a sock?

reply to post by senrak

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I'm going to have to agree with senrak on this one. Agnostics do not believe in a god per say, but neither do they claim God is not real. Practically speaking, most will claim that they just do not have enough evidence either way.

Deism on the other hand is a belief in a God-Like force, although deists may not necessary call that force God. But nevertheless, they believe in something which is higher than themselves - and it is something which has the characteristics of God - although it is not religion specific.

As far as agnostics are concerned, they would not in my opinion be qualified to join a lodge based on current masonic landmarks. If an agnostic petitioned and I knew he was an agnostic, I would have to black cube (we use cubes, not balls) him. Just as I would an athiest...assuming either ever got to the voting stage.

[edit on 16-3-2008 by pacificwind]

reply to post by Straighten Arrow

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I hope you realize responses like this reveal you for the troll you are. Your arrogant assumptions that somehow all freemasons cannot be Christian - or whatever religion you want to claim - is simply wrong. This is the same as telling your wife you wont let a black man or a boy scout be at your funeral. You should be ashamed.

I suggest you read the bible. Do you know how many names the bible has of God? Elohim (God), El Shaddai (God Most High), El Roi (God the Creator), and absolutely countless others for which I've forgotten the hebrew. The bible uses innumerable phrases for God, and the root hebrew or greek for most of these phrases is so ambiguous they could be appropriately translated Supreme Being. You are simply ignorant if you somehow are incapable of understanding that Supreme Being = God, and for Christians, this is the Christian God.

Your "gut feeling" has shown you to be a bigot. Or do you now reject the teachings of the bible that tell you to test the spirits and question them, sample as the preacher was doing?

But of course...your trolling, so in the sense that you want to bait a response, you are getting what you want.

reply to post by pacificwind

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There is much more to it. There is nothing wrong with being courteous and kind, and following it up with respect to someone with a different faith. My problem is when a society gets them together to where they have to agree on a "Supreme Being" rather then referring to him as Christ for example and then being led to believe that they should now question Christ for example is where the problem comes in at. You cannot have your cake and eat it to. Either you believe in Christ or whatever your faith tells you or you believe in or you believe in a "Supreme Being" that you have to question. You cannot have it both ways. That's why they call it faith and it's not good to join a society that gets you to question or doubt your faith. I know many of you will claim that Freemasonry doesn't do this, but it does. You guys hide behind the excuse that religions have caused hatred, segragation, and many wars and that in my opion is one of the tools that freemasonry uses to get one to doubt or to question one's faith. It's as plain as the nose on your faces but of course, you're going to qoute my post piece by piece and misconscrew it to your liking.

My preference not to have my funeral held by anyone who is a mason is because I want that rabbi or preist to believe in Christ as do I. Not some supreme being.


[edit on 16-3-2008 by Straighten Arrow]

reply to post by pacificwind

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Granted, I may be trolling to an extent but I love it when you guys use the term "baiting" because that only tells me that I hit upon something to which you are familiar with. Everything that I have told you is the truth. If I were baiting then I wouldn't be telling you the truth. But my past experiences that I have encountered with masons and have picked up on and have shared with you have been truthful and honest.

No where in Freemasonry is a member directed to question his beliefs. Profession of diety is all that is required, the name is not important to the collective, only to the Brother in question.



I feel that this is a rather broad generalization on your part. I believe in a Supreme Being and I do not find myself questioning that belief.



Care to explain how this is so when all who have posted have stated the contrary?



You seem fairly certain that you are correct on this point that you repeatedly proclaim it, however you failed to corroborate this statement with anything other than conjecture.



Emphasis mine

Best of luck on finding a rabbi who believes in Christ the same way as you.

[edit on 16-3-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]

Amazing, the same old denial. When will it stop? It's like banging my head against a brick wall. Oh well.