Any Secret Societies that don't require you to pledge on the Bible?

reply to post by senrak

Thank you senrak. You have answered the question posed in my original post eloquently. I suspect that Freemasonry wouldn't look very favourably upon anyone opposed to the Bible's teachings.

Now another question - are there any secret socities that don't put any emphasis on the conventional God, and particularly who don't use the Bible (or other holy books) in ceremony or ritual, or are they all deemed 'Satanic'?

reply to post by Straighten Arrow

That right there is a utilitarian type of view point. For the greater good right?

No its not. Its a logical conclusion based on obvious observances..

Just out of curiosity, is it true like my father-in-law has suggested to me when he tried to recruit me that if you are part of the "in crowd" that you get special consideration for job positions, promotions, and additional overtime and such?

Look mate, I am not here to pull strings and make Masonry into something its not.. So what I am going to tell you should not be misconstrued, taken out of context or warped in any way..

The "Inner Circle" is a small collection of Masons when you consider the whole of Masonry. It is essentially the officers, and those loyal brothers who attend meetings and partake in the politics and organization of the lodge. This is the inner circle, to my understanding, the Pike references.

I am apart of this inner circle in that I am heavily involved in my lodge's affairs.. from being on committees (being appointed as probably the youngest ever to the finance committee in my lodge) I am an officer in the lodge, I partake in every ritual, I try and partake in every meeting I can, I partake in every charity event we hold. I also actively support Masonry on ATS and in writings/speeches to my lodge and other Masonic outlets...

I am not alone, many like me attend lodge and partake exactly as I do..

So what is the outcome? I see these brothers at every event, its the same 20-30 guys every other Saturday giving up THEIR time to ensure the lodge's existent continues. It is THESE brothers who carry all the weight of Masonry for those Brethren who cannot or will not attend lodge and support its activities.. So obviously the "inner circle" will be a tight nit group of people. If I where to fall on hard times, say get laid off due to down sizing or lost my home in a fire.. I can be sure, absolutely positive, that I can go to my Brethren and they will assist me in every way possible. I know I would, I would get any one of them a job/financial assistance if they NEEDED it, or support them in all ways possible if they suffer any kind of loss..

Now, as to whether or not this is or would be done due to the fact that we are Masons, or friends, well I am divided on the subject.. I personally believe it is both.

If you consider this evil.. I have some serious objections to your moral perception of men.

I call him Luci for short

I thought I remembered your writing style.. but that line there is the dead give away. Don't worry, your secret is safe with me.. though I am sure my Brethren are quick in thought, and will sort through it exactly as I have.

Mason or not I consider us all brothers.

I don't know of a single Mason who considers None-Masons any less of a man then we are.. in fact, the majority of our assistance is for None-Masons, often those who never even knew Masons helped them. We don't go looking for gratitude..

Beelzebubba

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that an agnostic would not be eligible for entry.

You and Senrak are, sorry to say, absolutely wrong. Dead wrong. An Agnostic is generally someone who exist in severe confusion.. or does not profess the ability to say they are learned in any theological studies what so ever..

Basically, they don't believe in the written word or the organized theologies.. however, cannot clearly define their exact beliefs because of this lack of knowledge.. so how dare you say that because one does not believe in the organized theologies that their beliefs or internal feelings/emotions are any less worthy then one who reads the Bible and vomits back out the words written in it and professes a deep belief in a theology they may actually not understand at all?

Agnostics, being confused, are typically so because they know no one man should dictate how one should believe, or feel, and so they don't seek enlightenment from any form of clergy and exist in religious solitude. An Agnostic cannot believe in the impossibility in God, because that is the definition of Atheism, where as Agnostics should believe there is a God, but one which cannot be defined..

This is why I say most Agnostics are actually Deist, but because they never studied Theology, may never have heard of Deism.. and I dare a Mason to tell me a Deist cannot be a Mason.

I understand that certain clandestine Lodges in Europe are openly atheistic.

Agnostic and Atheist are as different as Day and Night my friend.. Do not mix them into the same category.

Although (as stated before on this list) the rituals of Freemasonry vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, they are basically the same and one of the first questions asked; actually THE first question asked in MY Grand Lodge's ritual is "Do you believe in the existence of God, the Creator?"

That question is also on the petition for membership. I truly don't think an investigating committee would report favorably upon a petition that had "no" checked for the answer to that question.

First:

God. Not your God Senrak, a God.. Agnostics would believe in the existence of God, yet not an organized theological existence of God.. but if you asked an Agnostic to describe God, he would give you his feelings on the subject, what he believes God really is.. and that is all that matters.

No Mason should say that their understanding of God is any better then another mans understanding of God.

And no Mason should believe that only set theological beliefs, set in stone, are the only forms to worship God.

Secondly, as stated before, Agnostics believe in God, and are often actually Deist not knowing it, where as an Atheist is not an Agnostic, and cannot be mixed in with the Agnostics because they do not believe in God.

reply to post by Cythraul

Thank you senrak. You have answered the question posed in my original post eloquently. I suspect that Freemasonry wouldn't look very favourably upon anyone opposed to the Bible's teachings.

This is true, because many are still bigots on the subject. However, if I ever found out that a Mason black balled another man for not being a Christian, I would personally bring Masonic charges against that individual and see to it they are expelled from the organization.

If you have not noticed, Religious freedom is my biggest belief. No man has the right to impose or oppress with their ideas onto another man.

reply to post by Rockpuck

I deeply appreciate your input in this thread Rockpuck, and I must say, you make the Masons sound like a mighty appealing group to be counted amongst. Another add to my ATS friends list. All the best.

Originally posted by Cythraul
I suspect that Freemasonry wouldn't look very favourably upon anyone opposed to the Bible's teachings.

Really? The Bible teaches that a man shouldn't touch his wife while she's menstruating. It teaches that one should not wear clothes of mixed fibers. That a man should not shave his beard. That adulterers should have stones thrown at them.

I don't think any Freemason I know would have any problem with someone who ignored those teachings of the Bible.

(and for any die-hard "The Bible is Law" followers out there, try throwing a rock at Bill Clinton some time and see where that gets you...)

[edit on 3/15/2008 by JoshNorton]

Masons are obligated on their own book of worship. The Volume of Sacred Law isn't confined to the writings of any one particular group and the essence is found across the writings of many religions. Why is there the reticence by society in general these days to acknowledge that good men of whatever flavour are good men? Why am I supposed to hate the Catholic or the Muslim or the Sikh or the Jew because the precise words of their holy book or practices don't exactly mesh with mine? How is the world improved by this unnecessary hate? Who benefits from such hate?

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
How is the world improved by this unnecessary hate? Who benefits from such hate?

It's not so much a hate, more a complete and utter defiance. You're right, hate is irrational. I don't choose to hate something, but often my emotions will veer that way when I hear about the appalling actions of early Christian missionaries, or the treatment of women living under Sharia law. What I do consciously choose, like I said, is to defy those teachings and let that rational defiance, rather than that irrational hate dictate the way in which I engage those religions and their teachings. I wouldn't swear on a Bible and I have perfectly logical reasons for this (which are positive to my mental and spiritual well-being, and have a reason in my life).

Originally posted by Cythraul

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
How is the world improved by this unnecessary hate? Who benefits from such hate?

It's not so much a hate, more a complete and utter defiance.

Christianty's well past the point of defying anything and is a benchmark, the type of benchmark which it could only dream of being two millenia ago.

Originally posted by Cythraul
You're right, hate is irrational. I don't choose to hate something, but often my emotions will veer that way when I hear about the appalling actions of early Christian missionaries, or the treatment of women living under Sharia law.

Hate is irrational but an emotion which joins men of all types and stripes. The stories of early Christian missionaries is oft-times cleansed for popular consumption and the stories about other religions should be taken with a grain of salt. Things in life are very seldom as they are made to appear.

Originally posted by Cythraul
What I do consciously choose, like I said, is to defy those teachings and let that rational defiance, rather than that irrational hate dictate the way in which I engage those religions and their teachings.

Good start. Good men are still good men regardless of the religious banner under which they choose to array themselves. The problem comes from those who array themselves under religious banners for the sake of convenience.

Originally posted by Cythraul
I wouldn't swear on a Bible and I have perfectly logical reasons for this (which are positive to my mental and spiritual well-being, and have a reason in my life).

Ultimately, you have to accept for yourself that there's someting greater than yourself that directs things. Call it God. Call it Fate. Call it Flying Spaghetti Monster. It becomes an acknowledgement that mankind isn't as good as it gets. If mankind's the ultimate of prudence, then you wouldn't be a good candidate for Masonry.

[edit on 15-3-2008 by Fitzgibbon]

[edit on 15-3-2008 by Fitzgibbon]

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

Christianty's well past the point of defying anything and is a benchmark, the type of benchmark which it could only dream of being two millenia ago.

Double edged sword sadly.. The religion that has the most to offer will be the one which prevails.. right now that religion is Islam. Its Islam because Islam is more appealing to the uneducated masses and the poor.. where as Christianity over secularized themselves, and lost influence within governments. While its true Christianity has become far more excepting of others, and agrees to secularization, it was also its ultimate downfall as a religion. Organized beliefs that cannot outwardly express dominance and control will fail.

Hate is irrational but an emotion which joins men of all types and stripes. The stories of early Christian missionaries is oft-times cleansed for popular consumption and the stories about other religions should be taken with a grain of salt. Things in life are very seldom as they are made to appear.

Not sure what ya mean here.. are you saying that actions by early Christians are over dramatized? I would say they are recorded very well, clear up to the 1800's the devastation which was caused at the hands of the religion, and was recorded by Christians them selves..

Ultimately, you have to accept for yourself that there's someting greater than yourself that directs things. Call it God. Call it Fate. Call it Flying Spaghetti Monster. It becomes an acknowledgement that mankind isn't as good as it gets. If mankind's the ultimate of prudence, then you wouldn't be a good candidate for Masonry.

Which is why self worship, atheism are denied entrance into Masonry.. however because someone asked earlier.. yes, it must be a logical form of worship.. you cannot really worship the spaghetti monster...

reply to post by Cythraul


"in which culture cannot be evil if deemed the norm by the majority of the population - this goes back to the idea that because others don't believe in something they must be evil"

Those weren't MY words. Why are you posting them as if they were?

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by Straighten Arrow
I was just pointing out what my father-in-law believes in every since he joined Freemasonry. He actually thinks that it was possible that our father Jesus Christ would have sex with one of his own children, Mary Magledon. God only knows what else he thinks.

Straighten Arrow,

Many people believe what you stated above.

If your father-in-law is one of them, he did NOT learn it in Freemasonry. The two are not connected at all and it's pure happenstance that he came to feel this way since becoming a Mason.

Sure it is Senrak! Your society takes people of their faiths and lead them into another direction off the straight and narrow to believe in a "Supreme Being" which to me sounds cold and distant. Or something more like an alien being.

The more and more responses that I read of "Free" Masons gives me the general concensus that they are being taught to hate their religions. You guys seriously give me the creeps!

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


"Good start. Good men are still good men regardless of the religious banner under which they choose to array themselves. The problem comes from those who array themselves under religious banners for the sake of convenience"

And you don't have to become a "Free" Mason to be "Free and accepted". You're already free. And accepted by Christ.

Originally posted by Cythraul

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
How is the world improved by this unnecessary hate? Who benefits from such hate?

It's not so much a hate, more a complete and utter defiance. You're right, hate is irrational. I don't choose to hate something, but often my emotions will veer that way when I hear about the appalling actions of early Christian missionaries, or the treatment of women living under Sharia law. What I do consciously choose, like I said, is to defy those teachings and let that rational defiance, rather than that irrational hate dictate the way in which I engage those religions and their teachings. I wouldn't swear on a Bible and I have perfectly logical reasons for this (which are positive to my mental and spiritual well-being, and have a reason in my life).

To put it quite simply, we are all human and all here to learn about things such as hate and pain but don't blame your emotions but blame your choices. You don't have the right to be destructive.

Originally posted by Straighten Arrow
Sure it is Senrak! Your society takes people of their faiths and lead them into another direction off the straight and narrow to believe in a "Supreme Being" which to me sounds cold and distant. Or something more like an alien being.

Uh......no. Masonry expects men of all faiths to properly acknowledge the duty they owe the Supreme Being (as they understand and worship) and expects good men of whatever creed to work together in harmony as opposed to finding that which can be used to divide them. I'm an Anglican. In my Lodge, the officer roster includes Sikhs, Roman Catholics and Jews. They don't impose their belief structure on me nor me mine on them. Are you saying that this coming together of men of different creeds is a bad thing?

Originally posted by Straighten Arrow
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

"Good start. Good men are still good men regardless of the religious banner under which they choose to array themselves. The problem comes from those who array themselves under religious banners for the sake of convenience"

And you don't have to become a "Free" Mason to be "Free and accepted". You're already free. And accepted by Christ.

I don't believe anyone suggested otherwise. Do you believe that you have the right to impose your belief structure on all and sundry? If work is being conducted in peace and harmony, need I browbeat another because he doesn't share my especial mode of belief? Do you honestly believe that Christ rejects all good men who haven't followed your path? Do you forget that his Father's house has many rooms? Are you taking the liberty of defining those rooms? Do you understand the concept of hubris?

reply to post by Straighten Arrow

Sure it is Senrak! Your society takes people of their faiths and lead them into another direction off the straight and narrow to believe in a "Supreme Being" which to me sounds cold and distant. Or something more like an alien being.

We discussed this is in great detail many times before your banning..

Freemasonry is not Christian. You should not expect strict Christian teachings..

The more and more responses that I read of "Free" Masons gives me the general concensus that they are being taught to hate their religions. You guys seriously give me the creeps!

No they are not, few hold beliefs other then Christian.

And you don't have to become a "Free" Mason to be "Free and accepted". You're already free. And accepted by Christ.

Not everyone is Christian mate..

I had asked you a few months ago if you believed everyone who was not a Christian was considered "evil" and you said no ... so why do you have such a problem with Masonry?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
You and Senrak are, sorry to say, absolutely wrong. Dead wrong. An Agnostic is generally someone who exist in severe confusion.. or does not profess the ability to say they are learned in any theological studies what so ever..

This is why I say most Agnostics are actually Deist, but because they never studied Theology, may never have heard of Deism.. and I dare a Mason to tell me a Deist cannot be a Mason.

Rockpuck, with all due respect I beg to differ. Traditionally an agnostic is one who neither truly believes that a God exists, nor truly DISbelieves that a God exists. In other words, they really just don't know. Here's one of many sites I looked at and I used my handy-dandy Dictionary to back this up.


en.wikipedia.org...

So, back to my original post (and I reiterate, I have NOTHING against agnostics) but when the question arises "Do you believe in God the Creator?" a true agnostic would have to say "I don't know" (That, by the way is not an option on any petition I have ever seen.

Additionally in the Masonic ritual (I'll quote Emulation just because...) in part of the ceremony the presiding officer asks the candidate "In all cases of diffuculty and danger, in whom do you put your trust?" He responds "In God"

The end of the Obligation in all three degrees ends with the words "So help me God..."

Would someone who wasn't sure whether or not he believed in God be able to take such an obligation in earnest?

Deism is quite different from agnosticism. Deists believe that God exists, but basically lets us as humans run amock. Honestly, I sometimes think I might believe this.

Agnostic and Atheist are as different as Day and Night my friend.. Do not mix them into the same category.

Although this statement was not aimed at me, I do agree with you. Agnostics are not Atheists.

First:
God. Not your God Senrak, a God..

First:
Show me please brother where I EVER said "MY" God. I said God.

Period.

As a Mason I do not and would not insist that anyone accept my personal interpretation of God. The ritual says "God" as well, and in the opening question it specifically says "God the Creator?" (at least most versions of the Thomas Smith Webb ritual used in the United States does)

Agnostics would believe in the existence of God, yet not an organized theological existence of God.. but if you asked an Agnostic to describe God, he would give you his feelings on the subject, what he believes God really is.. and that is all that matters.

Methinks you have missed what agnosticism is. As stated above and per the link provided (as well as others) agnostics basically are unsure whether there is a God or not. There is quite a difference in that and in what you are saying.

No Mason should say that their understanding of God is any better then another mans understanding of God.
And no Mason should believe that only set theological beliefs, set in stone, are the only forms to worship God.

I wholeheartedly agree. If you thought my post indicated otherwise, you misunderstood...or as you told me and beelzebubba in the previous post, you are "absolutely wrong"

Secondly, as stated before, Agnostics believe in God, and are often actually Deist not knowing it, where as an Atheist is not an Agnostic, and cannot be mixed in with the Agnostics because they do not believe in God.

Again, you're confused as to what an agnostic is. An agnostic is not and atheist, nor a deist. A "theist" perhaps, but not a deist.

An agnostic isn't SURE whether he/she believes in a God or not. An atheist does NOT believe in God...a Deist believes in God but doesn't think that God interferes/manipulates our lives.

I can't imagine a true agnostic being able to take an obligation that ends with the words "so help me God." At least not really meaning it.


[edit for quotes and because my initial response sounded like I was pissed and I really wasn't]


[edit on 15-3-2008 by senrak]

Originally posted by Straighten Arrow
Sure it is Senrak! Your society takes people of their faiths and lead them into another direction off the straight and narrow to believe in a "Supreme Being" which to me sounds cold and distant. Or something more like an alien being.

No, you are quite mistaken. And you are trolling.

Just like you did in your "other life" here at ATS before you were banned.

Like Rockpuck and others I remember you.

Nothing positive will come of further response to you, I therefore bid you adieu.

Originally posted by Cythraul
reply to post by senrak

 

Thank you senrak. You have answered the question posed in my original post eloquently. I suspect that Freemasonry wouldn't look very favourably upon anyone opposed to the Bible's teachings.

I wouldn't say that. We take the moral truths that the Bible teaches and most people have no trouble with that. I have plenty of Masonic brothers who aren't Christian though and who regard the Bible as nothing BUT that . . .moral teachings. Their particular books of faith are their "Light" and as Masons, that's acceptable. And as pointed out by others, there are teachings in the Bible that many of us as Christains today do not subscribe to. I don't imagine my neighbors would appreciate me building an altar and sacrificing small woodland creatures in my back yard if you catch my drift. :-) (Yeah, I'm joking around, but you see my point, I'm sure)

Now another question - are there any secret socities that don't put any emphasis on the conventional God, and particularly who don't use the Bible (or other holy books) in ceremony or ritual, or are they all deemed 'Satanic'?

True "secret societies" I'm not sure about, but there are other fraternities (Masonry is a fraternity and not a secret society) that do not emphasize God. In many "Brotherhood" is the main emphasis.