Any Secret Societies that don't require you to pledge on the Bible?

reply to post by Straighten Arrow


Maybe so, but, you didn't present any knowledge. You said that Freemasonry and Eastern Star are designed to do a certain thing, which I have seen NO evidence of, in any way. You don't present evidence to support your views, you just state them. THAT'S what my issue is there.
I quote:

Because Freemasonry and Eastarn Star are designed to take you off the path of the straight and narrow and to detur you from your religion and destroy your faith so that whatever you believed in is no longer and now that you believe in something that is false.

Prove that with fact, not a "gut feeling". It's an insulting statement to all the freemasons here. Your "Gut feeling" is noted and all, but, hardly of consequence to those who actually KNOW what they're talking about.

Just saying.

I'm NOT trying to pick any nits or anything, but, to make such a statement without actually knowing what really happens in a Lodge is ridiculous.
You go with your feelings though. If that's what gets ya going. I tend to investigate first, so I know, then apply my feeling to what I've learned. What do you know about modern freemasonry? Have you been to a Lodge ever? Or, do you just go by what you've been told?

The freemasons here are awesome in the fact that if you ask, they'll tell you what's up. Just like in THIS thread. A poster asked a question and the masons in ATS were answering. THEN, you come in spewing gut feelings on things you apparently are misinformed on.
Be an asker, not an accuser, please? Learn more, spout less.

My $.02
Cuhail

reply to post by Rockpuck


Thank you RockPuck. Deist, huh? So THAT'S what I am? I'll tell ya, I read your post aloud to my wife, and basically, you hit the nail on the head as far as mine and her thinking. She agreed whole-heartedly, as do I.

Thanks!


Cuhail

reply to post by Cuhail


Lol.. Glad I could accurately point you in the right path to your theology.. the best part is of course, you don't have to run to the nearest church/temple/place of worship and be inducted and "saved" by men in funny costumes..

Many famous Masons where Deist, including several founding fathers, like for instance George Washington.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Yes, an Agnostic can be a Mason.

Just say your a Deist. You may be anyways and not know it, I find many agnostics are.

Basically a Deist believes in one God.. but does not believe God interjects personal interference in Human lives - Miracles, prophets, speaking to man, having pre-marital sex with virgins .. you know, the whole nine yards.

Also Deist would believe that organized religions such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam (along with all the others) are representations or interpretations of God and Gods will by Man, and not God himself, and in no way reflects God or Gods will..

Most Agnostics would say "There is a God, but I don't know what he is, who it is, and I don't believe in divine intervention in Human lives.. but there is a God.. "

And that is Deism.

And yes, a Deist can be a Mason.

Arrow:

Your God ..... must be...... so .. proud of you...

[edit on 3/14/2008 by Rockpuck]

God is Christ and I hope that I do please him, that's what I strive for. No, I know that I am not a deist. My father in heaven would not have sex with one of his children. And yes, the Holy Bible does reflect the will of Christ.

reply to post by Straighten Arrow


Never said you where a Deist mate, I was referencing someone else, only the last bit was directed to you. And sorry, your God did not have pre-marital sex with a young virgin, impregnating her.. it was magic.

I'm just messing with you.. religion is to serious.. if the religious would lighten up, I feel there would be far less hate in this world, much less hostility and a little more love and understanding.

reply to post by Rockpuck


I wasn't being hostile friend. I was just pointing out what my father-in-law believes in every since he joined Freemasonry. He actually thinks that it was possible that our father Jesus Christ would have sex with one of his own children, Mary Magledon. God only knows what else he thinks.

By the way, I haven't tried to impose anything on him or told him that it was wrong. He's my father-in-law for Christs sake! He means well and I don't even believe for a minute that he is evil because of Freemasonry.

You say lighten up however, what is it about Freemasonry that you DO take seriously? Is it the ancient gnosis?

On a side note just out of my own curiosity and this may seem completely off the wall, Or it may have more to do with the ancient gnosis then I think, Do you think that the ancient Persians and Egyptians before Christ were for the most part evil in nature?

reply to post by Straighten Arrow


What do I take seriously about in Masonry? My Brothers.

Do I think ancient Egyptians / Persians where evil in nature?

Absolutely not. They where men, men like you and I .. what ever their practices and beliefs was a reflection of their culture, in which culture cannot be evil if deemed the norm by the majority of the population - this goes back to the idea that because others don't believe in something they must be evil - so everyone is evil because no one agrees.

If that is what you mean, is their society evil as a whole, and I say absolutely not.

Originally posted by Straighten Arrow
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

He actually thinks that it was possible that our father Jesus Christ would have sex with one of his own children, Mary Magledon.

There is no reason that Jesus, as a man, on Earth, would NOT have sexual relations with Mary Magdelene, IMO. I have no qualms believing they were married. You may disagree, but, it's a possibility that I accept.

Do you think that the ancient Persians and Egyptians before Christ were for the most part evil in nature?

I believe PEOPLE, having freewill, are capable of evil. I don't think societies are able to be labeled as such. Like RockPuck said, they were a society and lived as their communities governed and dwelt.

Cuhail

in which culture cannot be evil if deemed the norm by the majority of the population - this goes back to the idea that because others don't believe in something they must be evil

That right there is a utilitarian type of view point. For the greater good right?

I believe for the most part that they absolutely were evil. The constant conquest to pillage and take over from every end of the earth and enslave those who only believed in "L" rather then their many gods including those who made thier many slaves believe that they were gods themselves is absolutely evil.

Just out of curiosity, is it true like my father-in-law has suggested to me when he tried to recruit me that if you are part of the "in crowd" that you get special consideration for job positions, promotions, and additional overtime and such?

reply to post by Cuhail


"There is no reason that Jesus, as a man, on Earth, would NOT have sexual relations with Mary Magdelene, IMO. I have no qualms believing they were married. You may disagree, but, it's a possibility that I accept. "


So then, you do not believe that Jesus Christ was our savior and God in the flesh? Interesting, except that the one reason would be that Jesus was God in the flesh. God can be at any place at any time. Suprise, he can do things that we can't!

[edit on 14-3-2008 by Straighten Arrow]

reply to post by Straighten Arrow


I don't neccissarily believe that, no. But, I don't discount the possibility. I think that history has painted a picture of an awesome man, but, I also think organized religion has maybe distorted a lot of information, laid down by man, as a means to an end.
Let's just say, if Jesus is God (and God is Jesus), he and I will have a long talk about it when and if I reach those Pearly Gates. But until then, I look at me to carry on, not for God to carry me. If he did (does) exists, he knows what's in my heart. He'll let me know where I screwed up when I get to him.

Now, Straighten Arrow, let's return this thread to it's original topic and leave the theology in the Faith Forum at BTS. Okay?

Cuhail

That's fine, thank you for your tolerance and willingness to talk about it! However, I do want to add before I go that if you talk to Jesus that he will carry you and if you read the bible a little closer that you will see that it's not a myth, or that Jesus was not just some crazy man. His primary mission was to save our souls from the dark prince. His secondary objective was to lead by example to pave the path and that we understand where we come from and why we are here. We are here to devour Satan, formerly known as Lucifer, I call him Luci for short, and learn about the pain associated with the darkness that he presents before we get home. Because God does not want to be alone and he doesn't want another fall out in heaven. And because he loves us so much that he doesn't want to lose any more of his children. God doesn't want see us go through the pain but it is neccessary and he wanted us to see that by walking the earth in the flesh. Alright, I'll leave. It was nice talking to you brother! I don't believe for a second that your true self is evil at all, just a little mis-directed by the illusion, but that's my opinion. Jesus is going to have a long talk with both of us when we get to that cleansing hospital to await judgement day because we all fall short of the glory of God. All the glory be to God. Mason or not I consider us all brothers.

God bless

reply to post by Straighten Arrow


One thing people tend to forget about Jesus was that he was Jewish, not Christian. He didn't set out to create a new religion, we did. At the time a good jewish man was expected to have many children, even a rabbi. We know nothing about the years between his childhood and when he began his teachings recorded in the new testament. He was God, but he was also Man, and to say that he difinetly did not do something, when it is not mentioned in the Bible itself, is a matter of opinion.
Aside from that, he showed anger, he showed grief, he showed a strained temper at times (Remember when he cursed the fig tree?). He was very much human, just as he was very much the son of God, so I have no doubt that he loved as well.

reply to post by Cuhail


One more thing brother, I just want to say a prayer for you before I go:

Lord, I thank you for the discussion that I was able to have with person that I met today on this forum to discuss your name openly with a Mason because that's what I love to do. I hope and pray that you will continue to throw olive branches my new friends way and somehow convince him that you are real and that you did walk the earth so that all men and women would be free of satan whether it be through radio, tv, or any other type of media because without you Satan could not be defeated. I hope and pray that he is able to spread this information to other Masons as well. Lord, father, I pray for your blessings. AMEN.

Sorry, I'm not very good at this sort of thing as I am rather new to it and I hope you keep an open mind and don't mind that I prayed for you and please don't take it offensive. You don't strike me as the type of person to take it offensively though. I also pray that you and I can meet face to face when this experience is all over with so I can say see, I told you so! No, just kidding, but I hope that we can get a good laugh out of it.

Alright, I'm going to get off of my rocking horse and call it a night. Take care and God bless ya!

Originally posted by RuneSpider
reply to post by Straighten Arrow

 

One thing people tend to forget about Jesus was that he was Jewish, not Christian. He didn't set out to create a new religion, we did. At the time a good jewish man was expected to have many children, even a rabbi. We know nothing about the years between his childhood and when he began his teachings recorded in the new testament. He was God, but he was also Man, and to say that he difinetly did not do something, when it is not mentioned in the Bible itself, is a matter of opinion.
Aside from that, he showed anger, he showed grief, he showed a strained temper at times (Remember when he cursed the fig tree?). He was very much human, just as he was very much the son of God, so I have no doubt that he loved as well.

YES! And I believe that he still does have emotions but he would not have sex with one of his own children. To be angry is not a sin. There is very much sadness in Heaven right now until we have all learned about the darkness and the day will come when he has finally decided to stop using Satan and destroys him for once and for all! He is coming back not as the lamb, but as the LION!

Edited to add that anger can be a sin if it were used to be destructive but anger in of itself is natural and is not a sin. Also, vengance is God's therefore if he feels it necessary to flip a few tables and crack a whip then so be it for he is the truest of true and is the Almighty.

[edit on 15-3-2008 by Straighten Arrow]

Originally posted by Straighten Arrow
I was just pointing out what my father-in-law believes in every since he joined Freemasonry. He actually thinks that it was possible that our father Jesus Christ would have sex with one of his own children, Mary Magledon. God only knows what else he thinks.

Straighten Arrow,

Many people believe what you stated above.

If your father-in-law is one of them, he did NOT learn it in Freemasonry. The two are not connected at all and it's pure happenstance that he came to feel this way since becoming a Mason.

reply to post by Rockpuck



Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that an agnostic would not be eligible for entry.

SYLLABICATION: ag·nos·tic
PRONUNCIATION: g-nstk
NOUN: 1a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism. 2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

Link

If you are noncommittal, at best, about your belief, how can you take your obligations seriously?

You believe in a Supreme Being - no atheist or agnostic can become a Mason - but we are not concerned with theological distinctions or your particular religious beliefs.

Link

I understand that certain clandestine Lodges in Europe are openly atheistic.

reply to post by Beelzebubba


I agree. I have some friends who tell me they are agnostic. That doesn't make them bad in my opinion, but I think they would have a hard time joining Freemasonry.

Although (as stated before on this list) the rituals of Freemasonry vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, they are basically the same and one of the first questions asked; actually THE first question asked in MY Grand Lodge's ritual is "Do you believe in the existence of God, the Creator?"

That question is also on the petition for membership. I truly don't think an investigating committee would report favorably upon a petition that had "no" checked for the answer to that question.



[edit on 15-3-2008 by senrak]

Originally posted by Choronzon
In order to be accepted as a freemason (pass the black ball vote), you must invite the order into your home and allow them to inspect your character and morality.

Not sure where you got that information, Choronzon, but it doesn't work quite like that. When a person petitions a Lodge for membership the presiding officer appoints an investigating committee (usually composed of three members).

To be a member of the investigating committee is one of the most important duties a Mason is called upon to do.

This committee is to meet with the interested party and will typically ask him questions about himself, his profession, why he's interested in becoming a Mason, et cetera. If he's married they'll ask what his wife things of him joining (if she's present they will probably just ask her directly) but they are not required by any means to come into a prospective member's home. They MIGHT go to his home, but the committee that investigated me met me at a local coffee shop. Indeed, through the years I've been a Mason (19 in fact) very few of the members of my Lodge have been in my home at all.

My cousin joined a few years ago and they invited him to meet them at the Lodge Hall.

Just a little clarification.

Originally posted by Straighten Arrow
My father in heaven would not have sex with one of his children.

No but your Vicars and Priests would

Originally posted by Straighten Arrow
in which culture cannot be evil if deemed the norm by the majority of the population - this goes back to the idea that because others don't believe in something they must be evil

Interesting that you, a Christian, would say this. Does this mean that you recognise the possiblity that this can be applied to your religion? In Western culture, Christianity is the norm, therefore if it were evil, such speculation would not be tolerated, simply because it is the norm.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.