I'm curious.

It seems a few people here on ATS suspect societies like Freemasonry of being evil, and attempt to demonize them on that basis. Though I know little about Freemasonry, it seems obvious to me that there's little 'evil' involved. What I'm far more concerned about is the prominence of the Bible in these societies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Freemasonry appears to represent the continuance of exceedingly ancient sacred knowledge and wisdom, something which I'm hugely interested in. What I have a problem with is the involvement of the Bible. I know that dogmatic religion plays little part in most secret societies (which makes me wonder why the Bible even plays a part) but I'd have a hard time swearing on a book I abhor. Belief in a creator does not require faith in the Bible.

This is of course hypothetical. I have no intention of seeking membership in a society. I'm just curious to know if there are any that are 'Bible-free'.

I understand what you mean completely.. Raised Catholic and having gone through Catholic schools the Bible is nothing new to me, however, I renounced Christianity and converted to a religious belief that I found more fitting to my personality, my personal beliefs and that represented everything that Christianity was not. I to abhor dogmatic religions and find them to be the root of all evil in this world. And to me, the Bible represents much of that evil..

However..

I took an oath on the Bible, but I would not say to the Bible. The Bible its self is just a book, and in the book is words.. many of its passages are beautiful writings that have much meaning in them that all men should adhere to, regardless of their religion. When you take the oath on the Bible

(which you can substitute a Torah, Koran, Holy book of any kind)

you are swearing to YOUR God as you represent through the spoken word, using the Bible as a sort of medium. You then are asked to kiss the book, which at first I found degrading, though not one to cause to many ripples no one knows my faith - just not Christian and no one asked any more (they where curious as to why I refuse to join the York Rite) but afterwards, actually not until after my Master Degree I asked a fellow Mason the words I kissed ..

and he gave me the exact passages that you are told to kiss. Been a while since I read them, but I am fairly certain none pertain to any dogmatic theology or pertain to Christ in any way. You could read the words and apply them to your own life without adhereing to the religion.

But again, you don't have to use the Bible, you can use whatever book you believe in so long as it represent your religion. The Bible will still most likely be present, but you will take your oath on that book. Masonry is not Christian by any means, however, it uses Old Testament (Jewish essentially) as allagories as a medium to express the intended message.

Hope that clarifies a little bit about how things work.

A person's beliefs are considered the most sacred thing to that individual. By swearing on one's own belief's it is a representation of their loyalty.

Growing up I remember swearing things like, "I swear on my grand-mother's grave." in order to get into the tree-house. Obviously there were no supernatural forces at work on my grand-mother's grave.....

Wow, fast replies. Thank you for correcting me. I was under the impression that the Bible was standard pledge-material (actually I think I read somewhere that the sacred texts of other major religions were also permitted).

But say for example you have a spiritual belief that pertains to no known significant book or text. I assume you are obliged to swear on something. Could you, theoretically, swear on something as seemingly ridiculous as Tolkien's Lord of the Rings if you were able to argue that it held more significance to you than any other book?

I'm not trying to belittle Freemasonry in anyway whatsoever. I'm just trying to understand a little about the relationship between it and religion.

The use of Old Testament imagery makes sense to me. I believe that much of the pre-Judaic forms of esoteric spirituality are documented (often metaphorically) within those pages.

Let me tell you, when I decided to join Masonry I was sorely tempted to ask if the Principia Discordia could be used as my "book of law". I didn't, and ended up using the standard bible as well. As I was going through, in each instance where God was brought up, or I was asked to take an oath on the book of law, I thought about what God is to ME and what tenets I hold dear. The book became symbolic, but the interpretation solely my own.

Like Rockpuck, I haven't joined the York Rite because I can't in good conscience claim that I worship a Christian god. I could go through Chapter and Council, which are esoteric and non-denominational, and stop before taking the Templar Commandary degrees, but I haven't yet done so.

Curiously, I've had a friend who's in the York Rite tell me that he suspects the Christian requirement for the Templar degrees isn't an effort to make Masonry more Christian, but actually to make Christianity more Masonic. (Not really in the "hey we want to take over the church" sense, but in the "you, as a Knight of the Temple, should take a more active participation in your church."

Technically the Commandrey degrees do not have a requirement that you are a Christian. Nor does it require that you are of the religious belief that Christianity is correct. However, it does require you to be willing to take up arms in the name of the Christian religion should a war of religions take place (or something very similar...either way the idea that you would protect the religion if absolutely necessary).

Many people can reconcile this with their beliefs (specifically I know Jewish Knights Templar who reconcile it to the fact that if Christianity comes under true attack then they will soon follow) and others can not.

To be honest the Chapter and the Council degrees are the most interesting as they're related to Blue Lodge ritual. The Commandry degrees are more "modern" and take place purely as military orders with the background of the medieval knights and focuses squarely on Christanity.

Edit: Correction to grammar

[edit on 12-3-2008 by lukesaysmoo]

In order to be accepted as a freemason (pass the black ball vote), you must invite the order into your home and allow them to inspect your character and morality.

Not that it expressly forbids it...but I would seriously expect, that upon reporting back to the lodge, more than one individual would cast a black vote, based simply on a lack of confidence in their moral alignment with the lodge.

Also, I don't think that person would have a particularly wonderfull time at the lodge either. Depending on the whereabouts of the lodge, it would be particularly hard to fit in, so to speak.

[edit on 3/12/2008 by Choronzon]

Originally posted by lukesaysmoo
Technically the Commandrey degrees do not have a requirement that you are a Christian. Nor does it require that you are of the religious belief that Christianity is correct. However, it does require you to be willing to take up arms in the name of the Christian religion should a war of religions take place (or something very similar...either way the idea that you would protect the religion if absolutely necessary).

Many people can reconcile this with their beliefs (specifically I know Jewish Knights Templar who reconcile it to the fact that if Christianity comes under true attack then they will soon follow) and others can not.

To be honest the Chapter and the Council degrees are the most interesting as they're related to Blue Lodge ritual. The Commandry degrees are more "modern" and take place purely as military orders with the background of the medieval knights and focuses squarely on Christanity.

All of the above was my understanding as well... That defending the Christian religion is what is asked of you, and that the Commandary is only fun if you like marching around a lot. But there's still the checkbox on the petition. I suppose I could always turn in the petition with that not checked, and see if it goes through, willing to answer any followup questions as needed. But putting that one box on the York Rite petition does make me pause.

(Similarly, there's a checkbox on the Scottish Rite petition by which you must affirm that you have satisfactorily passed examination of your Masters work. I missed out on the first reunion I could have attended because I had just been raised a few weeks before and hadn't memorized everything yet. Other brothers raised around the same time checked the box and were brought through at that reunion, but I couldn't in good conscience lie on my application... Kinda goes against the whole principle of trying to make myself a better man if I had.)

Because Freemasonry and Eastarn Star are designed to take you off the path of the straight and narrow and to detur you from your religion and destroy your faith so that whatever you believed in is no longer and now that you believe in something that is false. The Holy Bible is not just a book or another theory. It's the last living disiple based on the truth to continue spreading the word about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Ask yourself, Why would you swear on the bible and not even be able to speak Christ's name? Excuse me, but that's not good!

Every since my father-in-law has joined Freemasonry he thinks that the bible is just another fiction novel and that Christ, a Holy man and God in the flesh, had sex with Mary Magledon and now there is a blood line. I pray for him all of the time.

Originally posted by Straighten Arrow
I pray for him all of the time.

Good luck with that. Let us know when you start seeing results.

Well the end result that I would like to see is for him to abandon Freemasonry and re-affirm his faith in Christ. But that is up to him to do. Christ isn't going to force him to do anything. That's why Christ has already given us free will.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
Like Rockpuck, I haven't joined the York Rite because I can't in good conscience claim that I worship a Christian god.

same for me, although through Gnostic teachings, a "Christian god" is getting closer and closer.

Originally posted by Straighten Arrow
Because Freemasonry and Eastarn Star are designed to take you off the path of the straight and narrow and to detur you from your religion and destroy your faith so that whatever you believed in is no longer and now that you believe in something that is false.

Wow! Where did you learn that? Almost silly with ignorance about Freemasonry, IMO.

The Holy Bible is not just a book or another theory. It's the last living disiple based on the truth to continue spreading the word about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

THAT is a matter of opinion. You believe what you need to to get through your day.

As to the original topic, what if you are agnostic? I feel there's something larger and greater than us, but, no formal denomination has shown me it "knows what's what"? How would I address that to a lodge that I'd be interested in?

Cuhail

Originally posted by Straighten Arrow
Well the end result that I would like to see is for him to abandon Freemasonry and re-affirm his faith in Christ.

Yes, your ideal result is that you would see him do what YOU think is best, not what he thinks is best. Live your own life, man. Why do so many "Religious" folk feel it's neccissary to impose their faith on those that are different? I think it's awesome that freemasonry accepts you no matter what YOU choose to believe, spiritually.

Cuhail

Yes, an Agnostic can be a Mason.

Just say your a Deist. You may be anyways and not know it, I find many agnostics are.

Basically a Deist believes in one God.. but does not believe God interjects personal interference in Human lives - Miracles, prophets, speaking to man, having pre-marital sex with virgins .. you know, the whole nine yards.

Also Deist would believe that organized religions such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam (along with all the others) are representations or interpretations of God and Gods will by Man, and not God himself, and in no way reflects God or Gods will..

Most Agnostics would say "There is a God, but I don't know what he is, who it is, and I don't believe in divine intervention in Human lives.. but there is a God.. "

And that is Deism.

And yes, a Deist can be a Mason.

Arrow:

Your God ..... must be...... so .. proud of you...

[edit on 3/14/2008 by Rockpuck]