Dow up 416 as stocks have best day in five years, page 4

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reply posted on 12-3-2008 @ 03:24 PM by Rockpuck

reply to post by pacificwind

I love the post gang going on here, its hilarious. Its easy apparently to classify anyone who doesn't bury their hand in the sand and buy the mass media's "OMG OMG OMG WERE ALL GOING TO DIE," approach.

Sorry to see you bent out of shape mate, but as I said, many of us here have been saying the exact same thing since August..

Not sure about the whole "we all gunna die" type mentallity.. but we ARE going to have to prepare for a worsening in the economy..

Just filled my car up.. $3.45 a gallon .. in Ohio .. a new record, which adjusted for inflation surpases the 1970's oil crisis by SEVERAL cents per gallon ......

But it is not choas and lining in the streets for gas, because by now we are so dependant that we MUST buy the gas.. there is little alternatives, and it is sucking the lower middle class dry, and bringing down the middle classes standards of living.

Not to mention out of control inflation over all. The US reported 4-5% inflation (core) yet Core inflation does not include any product dependant on petrolium .. meaning all Food products, and all gassoline related products.

Why?

Because the price of gas doubles every 2 years or so (2001avg 1.15 p/g 2008 3.45 p/g) .. and food going through the roof along with it.. as will anything that needs transporting. All the while, wages are stagnate, and the largest generation of jobs are in the service sector (also the largest layoffs)

Because surely, everyone who doesn't think the end is nigh MUST think the economy is going great, right? Right?!

Never met two economist who thought the exact same thing.. economics is not an exact science, but a science of interpretation and simply put, guessing.

But for the reasons you state .. well.. it just seems like you might not understand some of the underlying problems in the economy .. it has little to do with green or red numbers on the tickers, but the economy as a whole.. I prefer to look at the middle class as a indicator to the economy, and the middle class is riddled with problems, crippled by debts and shrouded in uncertainty.

Per the usual, the market goes up and its all a a lie and time to run for the hills! Lets go! Lets all think the market is the only way to measure the economy and certainly not look at things like the GDP

Beware the sucker's rally

"There is the hope that the credit crunch is over but it's not founded in reality," said Haag Sherman, managing director with Salient Partners, a Houston-based investment firm and subsidiary of Sanders Morris Harris.

As stocks started moving higher Tuesday, Sherman said he thought many investors with bearish bets were forced to buy - or 'cover' their positions - so they could lock-in gains or minimize losses

"This has the look of some panic buying - it was a very big move," said Charlie Bobrinskoy, vice chairman and director of research Ariel Capital, a Chicago-based institutional investor with $13 billion in assets under management.

Stocks can't make it 2 in a row

Stocks rose through the early afternoon as investors continued to applaud the Federal Reserve's plan to restore calm to the credit markets, announced Tuesday. But the advance lost steam late in the session and stocks turned lower as investors mulled record oil and gas prices.

"I think the market is handling itself pretty well, considering that it's managing to hold on to most of yesterday's gains while combating oil at $110 a barrel," said Peter Cardillo, chief market economist at Avalon Partners.

Federal budget deficit up more than 60%

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The federal budget deficit for the first five months of this fiscal year has risen more than 60% from the prior year after ballooning by more than expected in February, the Treasury Department said Wednesday.

In its monthly finance review, the Treasury Department said the budget deficit totaled $263.3 billion for the fiscal year that began Oct. 1, up from $162.2 billion reported in the same period a year earlier.

The deficit for the month of February reached $175.6 billion. A consensus of analysts polled by Briefing.com expected a budget deficit for the month of $170 billion.

Hmm.. maybe everyone is Doom and Gloom because...

Thats what it is. A bleak outlook...

[edit on 3/12/2008 by Rockpuck]

reply posted on 12-3-2008 @ 03:29 PM by marg6043

The reason is not lines at the gas pump or people are not stopping their gas purchases is because is not shortage of gas and like you say people are still in need of gas to conduct everyday affairs and work.

I just got a chain letter that asking people to boycott the oil companies that are contributing to the hike on prices, Mobil and Exxon.

Funny but BP is not included, it said that a littler bit of down on their sales will prompt them to give incentives to alleviate he gas crunch on the consumer as the government seems to have turned the face to the increased our of control prices.

reply posted on 12-3-2008 @ 03:39 PM by pacificwind

reply to post by Rockpuck

Don't misunderstand me brother, I am not bothered by the obvious posting gang and the unrelenting personal attacks when someone doesn't agree with a doom and gloom mentality. I just find it amusing that such tactics have to be resorted to. Its not you doing it, just a few forum gang members (not everyone in the thread).

I got the "were all going to die" mentality from looking at threads telling us we should - literally - all move into the country side, buy ammo, and start closing bank accounts. Just a tad extreme. But maybe I'm just crazy.

The oil prices are perhaps the most amusing thing to me. People panic and everyone is told to buy oil - surprise - the price of oil goes up. It has nothing to do with supply and demand, it is the emotional investors and reactionaries plowing money into oil commodities. It is a completely self-fulfilling prophecy and circular. The economy is bad, so you buy oil commodities. Oil commodities go up, the economy is bad.

The media makes money off of bad news, so I realize that we are all bombarded with "the end is nigh" daily by everyone except Fox, who is of course owned by the RNC and telling us that the good times are here. This is equally stupid. But of course, because I don't agree with the doom and gloom, it must mean I think everything is going great.

This is going to be the last time I say this. I have never said - ever - that the stock market is a good indicator for the economy. Its one among many, but not particularly the best by any means. However, I note *several* posts every time a big drop happens that tells us this is a sign the economy sucks, and a huge amount of people back slapping and agreeing with each other that surely this tells us the end is nigh.

Just as I suspected, when I posted the opposite all of a sudden the HUGE increase is a lie and we're still all doomed. It is not I that misunderstands the basics of the economy.

Everyone is doom and gloom because they believe what the media headlines tell them, instead of looking at the data. However, don't misunderstand. I 100% support the doom and gloomers. As they sell everything, I buy at great prices!

Now, let us resume the "your wrong, the economy sucks" postings, I shouldn't interfere anymore!

By the way Rockpuck, as a fellow mason and obvious elite ruling the world with the NWO, you should be happy at all this news!

reply posted on 12-3-2008 @ 03:55 PM by acegotflows

first of all, don't trust anything a bank says.

Second, they make the numbers say whatever they want to. Prices aren't going to drop, so the hoard yours theory still is intact. IT'S ALL A SHAM. The system is made to fail, something similar if not exactly like the Mark in Germany. IT's all an excuse to launder funds through war and black ops. It's just a mess, and because some gains happened in a day doesn't mean anything. Markets crash after big gains.

They try and cover the fact we're in recession. I'm the son of a baker. Flour and gone up 400% since August, milk more than a gallon of petro, so we're going to be shutting down shop soon. Just not economically viable anymore. SO the market goes up a lot one day, big freaking whoop. Doesn't matter for the little guy.

Keep faith in this sham all you want to, it's just going down in the end...

reply posted on 12-3-2008 @ 04:12 PM by AndrewTB

Wow! 416 points after loosing close to a thousand.

Let it happen a couple times in a row without falling down, then we can speak salvation.

reply posted on 12-3-2008 @ 04:18 PM by Rockpuck

reply to post by pacificwind

First

By the way Rockpuck, as a fellow mason and obvious elite ruling the world with the NWO, you should be happy at all this news!

I make money when people leave the markets, or hell, if I sell a mutual fund I would make more, but more people are dumping their funds then buying.

Of course, the Treasure allowance is nice to...

Anyways..

Oil prices are not going up because people are buying oil commodoties.. nor stocks in oil companies..

Oil is going up, but not as much as people think. In all actuality, the diving dollar is what is driving oil cost up.. inflation will cause oil, like Gold, to rise in value to keep up with inflation.. Then there is the obvious wealthy Gulf nations exploiting us just as we exploited them.. our military is stretched and our economy weak.. now they can milk us dry with little to worry about it. Then on top of that, corporations charging more and more making massive profits .. typically I am against government involvment with businesses..

however I am for the Federal government stepping in and dismantaling Piracy.

reply posted on 12-3-2008 @ 04:43 PM by Keyhole

Originally posted by pacificwind

The United States is not in a recession, face reality. Read actual economic literature, and learn the definition of a recession.

We may not fit the EXACT textbook definition of "recession", but a lot of people do believe we are in a recession!

A few more articles regarding "if" we are in a recession or not.

U.S. "Undoubtedly in Recession": Jim Rogers

The United States has entered a recession, according to highly-regarded investor Jim Rogers, who told Britain's Daily Telegraph newspaper on Wednesday he was switching out of the dollar and into yen, the yuan and the Swiss franc.

**** SKIP ****

"The US economy is undoubtedly in recession," Rogers told the Telegraph in Hong Kong in an article published on its Website.

"Many parts of industry are actually in a state worse than recession. If it were not for (Federal Reserve Chairman Ben) Bernanke putting huge amounts of money into the market, the stock market would probably be down much more than it is."

Rogers, who co-founded the Quantum Fund with billionaire investor George Soros in the 1970s, said it made sense to desert the dollar.

Lawrence Summers - Recession.org

On a recession: There's a good chance that we are in a recession, and I think it's possible, though not probable, that it will be prolonged, and that it will have implications for the rest of the world.

Recession.org

The current US unemployment rate is 5%, a 9yr high.
Sub-prime housing, credit, oil & dollar crises are all signs of a severe economic recession in the United States beginning in 2008.

Recession.Org - Stephen Roach

I believe the United States is in recession. The consumption share of GDP in the U.S. is 72 percent (a record) versus 48 percent in developing Asia. The housing market has driven U.S. consumption, as well as the credit bubble. Both have now burst. Consumers will now have to save the old-fashioned way--out of income--and the consumption share of GDP will likely drop to the 25-year trend level of about 67 percent. That's a big shift, and we need it to correct our current account deficit. But it will mean a full-blown U.S. recession that will be longer and deeper than most think, and will have repercussions throughout the world.

Goldman Sachs Warns of Imminent US Recession

Goldman Sachs has become the second Wall Street bank this week to declare the US economy is headed for recession this year.

The bank's chief US economist, Jan Hatzius, argues that the latest economic data shows recession has now arrived in the world's biggest economy - or will shortly.

Recession.Org - Where Is the Economy Going?

The link above for Recession.Org has many articles where, "Fifteen key economists, policymakers and strategists weigh in on a week of volatility and economic turmoil."

[edit on 12/3/08 by Keyhole]

reply posted on 12-3-2008 @ 06:12 PM by zerotime

ATS and the majority of its great posters are doom and gloomers - always have been and always will be. It is the nature of this website. Almost all conspiracies are downsides. There is no fun in a positive conspiracy. We like misery. The rhetoric changes very little decade to decade - the middle class is vanishing - America is about to collapse, the dollar is worthless, - All said by people I know back in the 1980's and I'm sure were said way before that too - possibility said since the birth of the nation. The world and its economies will have bear and bull markets. Ups and downs are part of life but don't worry in the long run everything marches forward. The old doomsdays prophets fade away and get replaced by new ones giving the exact same speeches but believing they are saying something new.

reply posted on 12-3-2008 @ 06:52 PM by BloodthirstyCapitalist

The Fed opening up the valves a little further on the money supply is just an attempt to loosen up the credit markets a bit, after the housing meltdown this past summer, and its accompanying credit crunch.

As for the big gain? Consensus seems to be that it was a dead cat bounce. Today there was a bit of profit taking, probably smaller investors spooked by the drops lately, and doing what amateur investors do: Buy high, and sell low.

Its apparent that the US is indeed moving into a period of slower economic activity. Recession is the popular word to toss around, especially when it comes to the 24 hour news channels because its provocative; yell recession in a crowded room full of people worried about making their mortgage payments, and you get attention. It may become a recession, but there is no absolute certainty to that. I can tell you that personally, I haven't adjusted my own portfolio very much (for one because its well-diversified, and also because I typically prefer distant investment horizons). Small caps and speculative stocks took a bloodbath, but thats typically what they do anyways.

This slowdown, while painful, might actually help the economy in the long run. What's not going to help is the fact that the Fed is just pumping tons of currency into the market, when the dollar is already weak against other currencies, such as the Euro (which isn't entirely a bad thing, as US exports to europe have increased, and with the summer coming up, we can all enjoy our visiting European friends, as they shop, stay and eat in our towns).

For those here complaining about "hyperinflation", does anyone recall the 80s? 13.58% in 1980, and it stayed above 3% for the entire decade (except '86). Interest rates on a 30y FRM 19% to 15%?

If you think this is the end, you need a better calendar. This is just the ups and downs of business.

reply posted on 13-3-2008 @ 12:23 AM by Anok-Fero

what do you expect after the american fed printed money from thin air 200 billion plus Bushs 600 into the american system. duhh

!

the markets will of course shootup, but only for few days it will still drop

reply posted on 13-3-2008 @ 05:21 AM by dawnstar

and the dow is back under 12,000, silver is approaching it's high...
that didn't last long, did it? seems to have lasted long enough for people to get the details of the plan and decide that the plan just wasn't gonna work or something. or maybe like someone said....it's the day traders and the like covering their shorts.
of course, the bad side effects of them these billions of dollars onto the market with such regularity, well, those will be around and felt for a long time. will cause people, who would have been okay, would have been able to pay their bills, well.....many of them will start having major problems simple because the price of every necessity is gonna go through the roof...
oh, ya, save the stock market for another day, by creating a bigger mess down the road! they should have helped the little guys who are struggling to pay the bills, or done nothing at all and let the whole thing fall, but, instead they chose the landgrab method. we lose the homes, and their buddies get the money practically given to them to scoop them up! heck, there was one article that was describing how the city and states were drawing up plans so that their employees will be able to scoop them up at half their value...how nice!! south america is even starting to sound like a nice place to live! america has lost it's integrity at it's core....it will never be the same.

reply posted on 13-3-2008 @ 08:24 AM by marg6043

reply to post by dawnstar

Well this sound like a drill but I will repeat it again, Dawnstar because you are right.

This what happen when a nation stop working from the people and let corporate corruption take over.

Our government and the values of capitalism are nothing than crap right now.

reply posted on 13-3-2008 @ 09:45 AM by Rockpuck

reply to post by marg6043

Dollar down against the Yen, lowest since 1995, lowest against Euro since 1999.

Some of the top currency exchange managers are now begining to panic, from France's second biggest bank words like "Gulf currency crisis" are starting to appear..

Though, the Gulf states have said that their next meeting they will not be dumping the dollar.. however, they have not said they will not reduce dollar holdings..

Which is exactly what big banks around the world are predicting..

The dollar is "rapidly deteriorating"

reply posted on 13-3-2008 @ 09:55 AM by mybigunit

Kill America without firing a shot. Its funny because jospeh stalin said a long time ago that America would sell you the rope to hang them with. Hmmm Im kinda nervous.

reply posted on 13-3-2008 @ 10:30 AM by ag2000

Wall Street under pressure as dollar hits record low vs. Euro; oil, gold and gas flirt with records...

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Stocks slumped Thursday morning, as investors eyed record high oil and gold prices, the dollar at an all-time low versus the euro, weak retail sales and the potential collapse of mortgage bond fund Carlyle Capital.

pacificwind: your OP is not really holding up at this point. I am no doom and gloomer but I will call you out on the fact that your OP seems to be incorrect:

Originally posted by pacificwind

Today, the market had the largest single day gain it has ever had FOR FIVE YEARS. While I'm sure the prophets of doom will come out to tell us this is all a one day thing and the end is still nigh, I think the evidence speaks for itself. The traditional doomsday talking points about how oil prices or the value of dollar will cause a crash seem to be quite wrong - the rally happened during the highest oil prices ever. The dollar made notable gains against all major currencies. Moody's reaffirmed MBIA's AAA rating.

[edit on 11-3-2008 by pacificwind]

[edit on 13-3-2008 by ag2000]

reply posted on 13-3-2008 @ 10:35 AM by pacificwind

reply to post by ag2000

Its holding up quite well, I assure you. Look at the post, then look at that day. Yep, stocks were up highest in 5 years.

But of course, that was all a fake and the end is nigh...and surely because stocks go down it confirms the end is nigh.

You doom and gloomers amaze me sometimes.

Edit: and gee, it ended up positive! Must still be a sign to run for the hills though...

[edit on 13-3-2008 by pacificwind]

reply posted on 13-3-2008 @ 03:26 PM by marg6043

reply to post by Rockpuck

You are right the dollar has not been dump completely but it has been cut by many nations including oil producing ones, nobody wants to lose money everybody wants to profit.

So is just one step closer to the elimination of the dollar as the major currency.

[edit on 13-3-2008 by marg6043]

reply posted on 13-3-2008 @ 04:25 PM by alphabetaone

Originally posted by pacificwind

Edit: and gee, it ended up positive! Must still be a sign to run for the hills though...

[edit on 13-3-2008 by pacificwind]