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Buk SAM liable to jamming

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posted on Mar, 11 2008 @ 04:47 PM
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Looks like Finland is accelerating the procurement of a new SAM system to replace their SA-11s. The reason given is that the system is susceptible to jamming:

Buk SAM liable to jamming

I've always been a little surprised that this system didn't export more widely. I'm also not sure what variant the Finn's are using.

It is important to note that the export version probably doesn't have the full up EP suite that the indigenous version does. Some info on the system for those interested:

SA-11




posted on Mar, 12 2008 @ 04:47 PM
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Only data i got says the that the variant is Buk M1... if it helps.

I think that the biggest issue here is that Finland nr1 potential enemy is Russia. And RuAF knows the Buk system inside out, so we wan't a system that can challenge RuAF in the most critical targets. I'm sure that the Buk M1 would still be used to protect front line units as their placements and employment are harder to quess in those conditions.

Currently the Buks are used to protect Finnish capital Helsinki, thus they would be used in a limited area and as an area defence weapon. (ring defence)



posted on Mar, 12 2008 @ 07:05 PM
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Thanks for the insight, Northwolf, starred.

It is an interesting conundrum, buying weapons from those that actually represent your most likely threat. I wonder if this jamming problem was based on an assessment that Russia would have such a capability, or based on the results of exercises against Western aircraft? Northwolf, does Finland do any air defence exercises with operators of Western aircraft?



posted on Mar, 12 2008 @ 11:34 PM
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Finland uses F-18s and does conduct international exercises with a wide range of countries.

Finnish F-18, photo taken during an international exercise in Netherlands:



posted on Mar, 12 2008 @ 11:42 PM
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Do you know what jamming pod they use? Standard Hornet jammer is the ALQ-126B, but I'd expect the concern is against more advanced jammers.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 07:41 AM
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reply to post by Willard856
 


Willard856, can you lease post a direct link to the article, the one you posted leads to a main page, and I could not find anything about BUKs jammng.

Thanks.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 05:13 PM
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Looks like they moved it. Here is a new link. Apologies to all who tried previously!

New Link



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 05:29 PM
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reply to post by Willard856
 


I hate to bother you Willard856, but it’s exactly the same link.

I’m rather curious about Finnish Buk SAM, and since Finns use both NATO and Russian gear, I would like read the jamming article.

Thanks again!



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 06:03 PM
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All SAM systems are vulnerable to one form of jamming or another. What really bothers Finland is that they have systems from Russia and Russia is increasingly flexing it's muscles.

Finland has a long memory of invasion by Russia and no doubt is looking for a system which Russia is less familiar with.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 07:51 PM
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They must have some sort of anti-linking thing going on. Type "Buk" and "jamming" into their search engine, and it should be the top search result. I'll see if I can find another source as well.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 07:55 PM
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Here we go, give this a try.

Third time's a charm...

Funnily enough, they have a picture of a Guideline missile in the article. I'm sure it is indicative only...

Just in case the link doesn't work (what are the chances!), here is a bit of the already short article:


Suomen Kuvalehti added that the discovery of the possibility to [jam] the missiles' guidance systems had prompted the defence ministry to propose a 110-million-euro extra appropriation to speed up the procurement of a replacement missile system.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 08:14 PM
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reply to post by Willard856
 


Got it, thank you!

3rd time is the charm.



posted on Mar, 16 2008 @ 09:33 AM
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Some background, the main reason behind Finland aquiring the BUK system was the price. Russia offered the BUK system as a payment for the Soviet Unions debt it inherited. So the system was allmost free as there were no alternative payments available from Russia.

Main reason why it's a "problem" now is the fact that Finnish army has far to few decent SAM systems. This is a good plan to "force" the politicans to give funds for a new system. And BUKs can be reassigned to teather defence.



posted on Mar, 16 2008 @ 04:52 PM
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reply to post by northwolf
 



Some background, the main reason behind Finland aquiring the BUK system was the price. Russia offered the BUK system as a payment for the Soviet Unions debt it inherited. So the system was allmost free as there were no alternative payments available from Russia.


It looks that way to me as well. After looking into it, every other source referred to the nature of the problem as “scrambling”, not jamming. In fact the only article which mentions jamming instead of “scrambling” from yourdefencenews.

Jamming and scrambling are entirely different things, and scrambling encompasses a whole range of possibilities. Anything from corruption of the datalink to activation of hardware/software bookmarks.

newsroom.finland.fi...

www.topix.com...

Personally I’m thinking that other then political pressures the Finns don’t want the repeat of what happened to Saddams SAM networks, when the French activated their bookmarks and disabled data processing links.



posted on Mar, 16 2008 @ 05:59 PM
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Seems like a translation issue to me. To my mind, jamming and scrambling fall into the Electronic Attack definition, so aren't all that much different. Whether you achieve the effect through a SOJ, SIJ, or through CNA, the end result is the same.

Do you have any links to the claim about the French disabling the Iraqi ADN?



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 03:11 AM
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Finnish term used in the original news item can be translated to both jamming (brute force) or srambling (more sophisticated).

But i think the issue is scrambling from the context of the discussion in Finland. But that shouldn't be a problem as we have more than enough engineering capability to modify the electronics. Finnish F-18s have broadband datalinks that relay more information than USAF systems could receive



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by northwolf
 


northwolf, you are absolutely correct on all points. I have to say that I read your posts with increasing pleasure, because it leaves nothing for me to add, and honestly, I always prefer when other people are saying the right thing.

When that happens, I get that soothing “something is right” feeling. Most of the time here on ATS the arguments literally focus on extremely propagandized mentalities rather then the issues at hand, thus naturally it’s rather tiring then stimulating.

Since we already here, can you please describe in little more detail the difference between active signal jamming and more sophisticated communications/processing hacking/scrambling?



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by iskander
 


I think you described it just right. Jamming is the act of preventing signals from reaching there intended destination, while scrambling/hacking is more of following the signal to its source and actually disable communications from the source, among the other benefits.



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 12:20 AM
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Depends on your doctrinal definitions. To me, Electronic Attack is denying, degrading or manipulating the adversary's use of the electromagnetic spectrum. This includes jamming, which can comprise noise jamming (so they don't see anything until they achieve burn through), or by feeding in false information (range/velocity gate pull-offs etc).

Northwolf, what sort of bandwidth are you talking for your datalink? And if Finland has the engineering capability to sort out the jamming/scrambling issue, why announce you are getting a new system?

Iskander, info on the French bookmarks?



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 12:49 AM
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I don't have figures on the datalink, but the 1980's version created and shared a live radar coverage from all our defence radars, cortesy of Nokia


As for the jamming issue, it's a plan to get funding for more air defences. As we are dseriously lacking in SAM numbers we would need to survive any clonflict with Russia. If the jamming would be a real problem would we hear about it?



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