The state of 9/11 Truth: not pretty

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by jthomas
Just like the overtly political 9/11 Truth Movement.

I realize you guys are in a big-headed pissing match (good luck btw

), but where am I missing all the political slander on all the 9/11 threads, Mr. Thomas? Most people I see posting, I know to be anti-politics (ie left, right, up, down, diagonal, blah blah blah) because "we" are pretty anti-establishment in general.

You're just confirming what I said. The 9/11 Truth Movement is a political movement.

No mystery there.

Those of us who have studied the history of False-Flag attacks, especially U.S./Western/Israeli involvement in these "events" have an insight that most do not.
Blueraja, has it come to the point where wanting to know the Real Truth is un-American?
Just the fact that being a "Truther" is now tantamount (throughout the Establishment) to being a "Terrorist" shows that seeking and speaking the Truth in the good ol' USA will be subject to ridicule, and eventually a reason for imprisonment.
Throw that theory you have out here and let's take a gander, or are you worried about ridicule?

Originally posted by coughymachine


This is a lie. I did not claim the government is the suspect but that it was a suspect. This is an important point, not only because you deliberately misrepresented me, but also because you relied upon this falsehood to pursue your agenda throughout the rest of the post.

If you believe your own posts in this thread actually misrepresent you then, by all means, retract them. As it stands, your posts speak of only one entity: the government. If you want to include other entities, by all means, please do so.

As it stands, you haven't, and apparently you don't intend to. So absent any other named "entities" in your posts in this thread, I will have to stick to the fact that you named only one entity: the government.

Your own posts demonstrate my case, as unimportant as it is, but nonetheless just another illustration of the "The state of 9/11 Truth: not pretty."

Absent any new information from you, this case is closed and off topic.

Originally posted by jthomas

You're just confirming what I said. The 9/11 Truth Movement is a political movement.

No mystery there.

Time for a little Derrida. Let's deconstruct this post:

"You're just confirming what I said."

Translation: Black is white. I will not even acknowledge any validity to your premise. I'll even turn the tables on you; what the heck, I've got nothing to loose, in for a penny, in for a pound.

"The 9/11 Truth Movement is a political movement."

Translation: I'll repeat my baseless accusation. Hopefully, like with advertising, if you say it long enough, somebody will buy it. Won't back down, better to brazen it out than show that I've been caught out. The italics show (hopefully) confidence.

"No mystery there."

Translation: Appeal to the herd instinct ("Jeez, everybody knows this") and pretend the original accusation is obvious on its face when it is nothing of the sort. Short sentence fragment projects confidence by not bothering to round out the thought.

Oh wait! I forgot, Derrida's a Frenchman! That means he's totally suspect (even though he's dead): the French are all Bush haters and Iraq cowards. You know, Freedom Fries, boycott cheese, all that. Well, it totally invalidates the analysis then. Never mind, anyone who questions 9/11 must therefore be politically motivated by hatred of GW Bush.
QED.

Originally posted by Griff
The argument is valid. Or NIST would have investigated ALL possible scenarios until each and every one was narrowed down to the best fit.

Not even close. They DID try various scenarios. The scenarios they tried were ones that would fit the OBSERVABLE damage first. From there, they took that info and used it to estimate the damage to the cores. Same with the fires. They used observable events and extrapolated what was going on.

The towers fell for the reasons that NIST suggested.

But, like I suggested in another thread, the NIST was a coverup, but not one of covering up CD. Rather, it was a coverup of a design that didn't meet building codes, etc. You may be on to something regarding the Rockefeller angle. But I doubt it has anything to do with substandard steel. Or perhaps a coverup for NYC or the Port Authority.

Same thing regarding the 9/11 Com Report. Coverup, not of any LIHOP bs, but rather a coverup of the intelligence community's incompetence and the failure of government policy.

As far as bricks go..... kettle, meet pot.

Originally posted by Maxmars
reply to post by jthomas

 

By the way, you wrote;

"A reinvestigation of what? That WTC 1 and 2 could not have collapsed as a result of aircraft crashes and unfought fires?

Fine."

Are you conceding that the above question - rhetorical though you may have intended it to be - has merit in this argument? Or does the follow up:

"Tell us on what basis one should demonstrate that claim. What is the evidence? What are the standards you believe should be used that would be sufficient to convince anyone the claims are worth another investigation?"

..., indicate that in your mind there exists a set of conditions or a 'basis' that you WOULD accept? Baiting is a cheap way of arguing isn't it?

I wouldn't know about baiting. I ask direct questions usually expecting a direct answer. The point is that if you want a new investigation or believe the government is a "suspect" for something, you will have to make a compelling case. Since I've never seen any, I am asking you what that compelling case is that you would use to argue for a new investigation. And that requires that you deal with ALL of the evidence.

"In the end, the burden of proof remains on those contesting the conclusions, evidence, and methodology of forensic investigations."

Not so, in the end the government is not only liable for the burden of proof, they are supposed to be legally compelled to respond to the will of those citizens raising the complaint.

I've been over this fallacy several times. The government is not "liable" for anything. It is neither a suspect nor a defendant in a court case. It does not have to "prove" anything. The burden of proof is always on the accuser - you. This is the absolute standard of the rule of law. You are obligated to adhere to the rule of law no matter how you try to to proclaim yourself a special case that doesn't have to.

The citizenry was the intended audience, they want to know the truth, they do NOT accept the fantasy presented them,...

That's nothing more than your claim and assertion. That won't get you a new investigation.

...they HAVE pointed out the inconsistencies of the report, they were the one's to whom the answer is owed - not ANY answer - they must be answered to their satisfaction.

Again, That's nothing more than your claim and assertion. That won't get you a new investigation. That will get you a good laugh, however, as you are shown the door.

Whatever the government claims is just fine in your mind. Fine. I can't make you care, nor would I want such a responsibility.

The government is not making any claims. YOU are. We have several investigations sponsored by the government, none of them obligated. The evidence, methodologies, and conclusions have been presented. If you disagree, the burden of proof is on you to make a compelling case and DO something. That's the reality and the rule of law.

In the justice system it takes the testimony of just 2 people to proceed with an indictment for a capital crime. Unfortunately, people like you seem to think that if hundreds of thousands of people (if not millions) are dissatisfied with the answers they were given - it's just tough luck for them.

It's INDEED tough luck for you because you choose not to take any action whatsoever. You think because you make a claim, that it's a valid claim and by magic your "suspect" will appear in court. Quite amazing, I would say.

You seem to hold to the notion that unless they magically coalesce into an organized mass of collective will, no one has to answer any questions.

Apparently, you are unaware that if want anything to happen YOU have to DO something. And you are all very good at ignoring answers to questions that you find inconvenient, may I remind you.

"You must demonstrate that they have been "repressed or ignored."

No I don't. Those who have suffered that fate have stated so publicly and made their case, if you care to endorse ignoring them that is your affair. Personally, I'm less inclined to believe the government rendition of the event because I know what I saw and heard.

Thus their "case" is not very compelling, then, is it? There is no obligation to validate claims just because one feels so entitled to feel by making a claim, it's automatically a valid claim.

"Who might these people be, per chance? Does the fact that they made "arguments" dictate that they must be heard? "

The same question can be applied to those who proffered what you so righteously call the scientific, logical explanation. Are there arguments ordained by some supreme being and therefore are unassailable? I have to be an expert in metallurgy to contest that jet fuel can melt steel?

As you well know, no steel was melted by jet fuel. Why repeat such nonsense? And you appear determined to deny that the forensic investigations stand on their own and that ANYBODY can question, debunk, or affirm them, including 9/11 Truthers. That you haven't done so continues to allude you.

You don't even want to be right. You just seem to want everyone else to be wrong.

On the contrary. I am just demonstrating why and how the 9/11 Truth Movement denies what is a big, fat truism: the burden of proof is on YOU to make your case. You want to avoid that responsibility at all costs.

After 6 1/2 years of hearing the exact same claims, we are still waiting for you 9/11 Truthers to do something!.

Originally posted by gottago

Originally posted by jthomas

You're just confirming what I said. The 9/11 Truth Movement is a political movement.

No mystery there.

Time for a little Derrida. Let's deconstruct this post:

"You're just confirming what I said."

Translation: Black is white. I will not even acknowledge any validity to your premise. I'll even turn the tables on you; what the heck, I've got nothing to loose, in for a penny, in for a pound.

Black isn't white and denying reality is silly. Try again.

Originally posted by jthomas

Black isn't white and denying reality is silly. Try again.

My point exactly. This thread is silly. Try again.

jthomas,

We are not going anywhere!

You cannot convince us of anything!

We will be here when you are gone!

jthomas are you being paid?

We're not.

C'mon jthomas we know you know.

Let it go jthomas! We're with you!

Ha ha ha c'mon jthomas! We love you anyway!

Originally posted by jthomas
If you believe your own posts in this thread actually misrepresent you then, by all means, retract them.

The discussion I was having before you interjected with your lies was focussed on the official account. However, the quote you selected as evidence of my view made it clear I saw the government as a suspect, not the suspect. Yet you nonetheless deliberately misrepresented me in order to pursue your own agenda, which seems to be to be nothing less than a constant attempt to muddy the waters.

Well that's a game I'm happy to play in your pointless thread.

The only new element that needs to be added here is an acknowledgement by you of the very obvious error of judgement you made in lying about my view. Until then, we'll carry on until you either give up or this thread gets locked.

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
jthomas,

We are not going anywhere!

You cannot convince us of anything!

Thanks for the candid admission.

So much for your claim that "we're just asking questions."

Originally posted by Leo Strauss


jthomas are you being paid?

We're not.

C'mon jthomas we know you know.

Let it go jthomas! We're with you!

Ha ha ha c'mon jthomas! We love you anyway!

JT JT ... abort abort.... NWO has issued an immediate abort message. They are on to you!!

reply to post by jthomas


You would only be tired of "canard and strawman official stories" if you were frequenting 9/11 conspiracy websites or 9/11 conspiracy discussion websites on a regular basis. Otherwise, everywhere you go, your "official story" is accepted as absolute truth by most people you'll come in contact with and any newspaper you read or television program you turn on. Right now I'm in my room on my computer discussing this topic but if I were to walk out my front door right now I would be among crowds that would never even consider a flaw in the "official story" let alone contemplate a vast and dark conspiracy, and I'm shrewd as a serpent. I've learned the hard way to keep my mouth shut, or be met with malice, contempt, and condescending chatter that flows vehemently from those who find contrasting opinions to be utter nonsense, especially when they are quite certain they know exactly what went down and it can't be challenged. "Oh here we go, one of those conspiracy theorists" GASP. Like lepers they are.

jthomas

I said nothing "YOU" can say will convince us. That is not everyone else!

That is you and you have not said anything convincing!

If 911 truth is political what kind of politiics do you think I am promoting??

Socialism? Communism? Facism? Libertarianism? Conservative? Liberal?

Let me know because I sure don't know what you think I am promoting!

Captain,

I'm watching you (2 fingers points at eyes then at CO).

Seriously though just a quick look at the post count of Jthomas and I don't see how he has the time??? CO I don't agree with you but I have never thought of you as anything other than just wrong!



You know I think reptilians are nonsense but I don't spend every free moment I have on the reptilian threads trying to debunk and convince the believers there are no reptilians...see what I'm gettin at?????

jthomas thinks we are full of hooey right? Thinks our questions are childish right?? Why not move on?

Originally posted by comm12
reply to post by jthomas

 

You would only be tired of "canard and strawman official stories" if you were frequenting 9/11 conspiracy websites or 9/11 conspiracy discussion websites on a regular basis. Otherwise, everywhere you go, your "official story" is accepted as absolute truth by most people you'll come in contact with and any newspaper you read or television program you turn on. Right now I'm in my room on my computer discussing this topic but if I were to walk out my front door right now I would be among crowds that would never even consider a flaw in the "official story" let alone contemplate a vast and dark conspiracy, and I'm shrewd as a serpent. I've learned the hard way to keep my mouth shut, or be met with malice, contempt, and condescending chatter that flows vehemently from those who find contrasting opinions to be utter nonsense, especially when they are quite certain they know exactly what went down and it can't be challenged. "Oh here we go, one of those conspiracy theorists" GASP. Like lepers they are.

Well, if you would realize that using the 9/11 Truth Movement's fallacious canard and strawman, "Official Story", is a hoot to rational people, you'd stop using it and think instead.

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
jthomas

I said nothing "YOU" can say will convince us. That is not everyone else!

Everyone else that doesn't agree with you.

If 911 truth is political what kind of politiics do you think I am promoting??
Socialism? Communism? Facism? Libertarianism? Conservative? Liberal?

I said nothing about what you are promoting. But the 9/11 Truth Movement is a political movement as it's own members proclaim proudly:

For instance:

"The Next Stage of the 9/11 Truth Movement"
"To win this struggle to reveal the truth we need to know where we are in terms of the 8 Stages of the evolution of our movement so we can plan and carry out more effective social action."
www.communitycurrency.org...

"We see ourselves as a progressive affinity group within the Portland 9/11 truth community. Our mission is to ascertain the facts about the events of 9/11, to engage in ongoing dialogue with each other regarding the political context of the events and its significance, and to broaden the reach of the 9/11 truth movement among the political Left in Portland."
www.911truthportland.org...

"To get the message out, the movement has gone beyond bumper stickers and "Kumbaya" into political action."
www.wanttoknow.info...

"Because the 9/11 truth movement presents grave moral, legal and political threats to those in power, we would be naïve to not anticipate covert governmental intervention in our activities and attempts to divide, disrupt and discredit us by promoting hateful or repellant theories and sowing internal discord. Indeed, the greatest risk these forces pose to our work is not espionage or disinformation; it is the provocation of destructive mistrust between authentic activists."
www.911truth.org...

"The 9/11 truth movement must use political strategies to defeat the status quo political establishment. Here are three actions."

"The 9/11 truth movement must also be a political movement"
www.thepeoplesvoice.org...

"In other words, the truth movement has set the stage for taking their passion to a higher political level that even more Americans can support - government reform."

"9/11 truth seekers must become government reform seekers to achieve their objectives through smart political strategy."
blogcritics.org...

"Tying 9/11 truth to civil liberties protections and the fundamental issues of Peak Oil is probably the best path for making 9/11 truth more practical for political change. Ideally, 9/11 truth could lead to reductions in the military budget so these resources could be used for permaculture solutions to Peak Oil and climate change."
www.oilempire.us...


"9/11 Truth: A Direct Path to Needed Change"
A Call for Financial Support

"The growing 9/11 truth movement represents the most powerful political force for fundamental reform and democratic renewal in America today. No other constituency has the vision, strategy or evidentiary base to bring timely change to a gravely corrupt corporatist system that has hijacked our governance and now threatens the world more than ever."

"In other words, 911truth.org is working flat out to bring us to the political tipping point and a societal moment of truth and transformation."
www.911truth.org...

You might want to catch up with your political movement, Leo.

Originally posted by jthomas
Well, if you would realize that using the 9/11 Truth Movement's fallacious canard and strawman, "Official Story", is a hoot to rational people, you'd stop using it and think instead.

And yet, if you visit GPO Access, you will find an online copy of the 'Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, Official Government Edition'

reply to post by Leo Strauss


Leo,

You talkin to me? You TALKIN to ME?

Dude... please do me a favor and point out to me what I got wrong. Of all my posts...please point out the errors I have made.

Thank you,

CO

Does the 911 Truth movement present a danger to America? Are the persons involved in the 911 Truth movement common criminals with much to gain out of the questions they raise?

What motivates the 911 truthers?

If they are a danger to America then what should be the action taken against those involved as well as any splinter groups?


If you look at the backgrounds of the leaders of the 911 truthers what do you see?

Personally, the members whom I have checked out seem to be "everyday
Americans" with a slightly higher education then the average American, interest in the political direction of America and wanting to bring to light questions that any rational person might have.

I have not arrived at any conclusion as of yet but I have stood inside buildings similar to the Twin Towers and I find it very difficult to believe jet fuel could bring down any modern skyscraper.

Do a quick look at a public figure such as Mr. Mars and you will see, in my opinion, a person with valid questions who shows his love of America by exercising his right as a citizen.

Are valid, relevant questions allowed in a democracy, or a republic? They are not allowed in a facist structure.

I believe we should question the event in oder to preserve the very being of a Democratic Republic. If we do not question the goverment that rules over us I believe we are betraying the ideas of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America.




[edit on 15-3-2008 by whiteraven]

reply to post by jthomas

Most of us "tin foil hat wearers" have thought about this subject, we came to the conclusion you are afraid of. I've tried to talk about 9/11 to other people, they don't want to hear about it, why? My guess is they are afraid that, if their government would pull somthing like this, what's next? They don't want to think!!, they are living in their own little world, not giving a crap that Bush and his cronies are slowly taking away their rights, thinking, I have nothing to hide, so I don't care, well I used to be that way too, til I DID think, I did some research, It changed me forever.

I do not trust my elected government to do whats best for me, just whats best for them and the other elitists, it's sickening to think my government could pull this crap, but hey, in the end they'll have gotten away with it, because we "conspiracy nuts" will never be allowed to be heard without you believers shouting us down because you are afraid of the truth.

If you really trust your government that's great, but when they say I can be arrested as a terrorist because I disagree with them, that tells me they are hiding something. sensorship blows, but they'll get away with that too. This type (internet) of media is next. Big brother is closer than you think, but you won't see it til it's in your house, too late then.

Have a great day.