Photon: And I guess my answer to most (if not all) of your above questions (which I've asked myself aswell) would be that Khufu, Khafre, and Menkaure had nothing to do with building those pyramids.

Photon: I wanted to get your thoughts on G2 though. It puzzles me...

1- For the very reason you mentioned above, it was built on a higher elevation than G1; why would the great Khufu not pick the highest point to build the greatest pyramid of them all?

Photon: 2- G2 doesn't have the convex sides like G1 and G3 have. Why not? This doesn't seem to follow the "logical progression in pyramid design" ( i.e. if you buy into this idea, which ironically dissipates after the supposed construction dates of G1-3.)

Photon: 3- The Sphinx. Khafre is credited with having originally carved it. Of course I disagree. I think it's safe to say that G2, its causeway, the Sphinx with its enclosure and temple, and the Valley temple are all part of the same design plan (within the overall plan of course). There is sufficient evidence that suggests the Sphinx pre-dates Khufu by at least a few hundred years. ( and I'm not necessarily referring to Schoch's opinions here) So naturally if that indeed is the case then G2 would also pre-date Khufu.

SC: Be that as it may, we still have to accept that the C-14 dating of the mortar and timbers from within the pyramids (yes, some timbers have actually been used in the construction as lintels or beams within a number of chambers), places the construction as contemporary with the Kings of the 4th Dynasty. This is incontrovertible.

SC: ....On such a plan it is reasonable to suppose that the base would be flat. On such a flat-based model G1 would appear larger AND TALLER than G2, hence perhaps why Khufu chose G1 - it would have looked bigger and taller than G2 on the plan (perhaps a granite model of the Giza complex). In this sense then we can see Khufu opting for prestige over practicality not realising, of course, that G2 would eventually eclipse his own grand structure by virtue of being built on the highest part of the plateau.

SC:1) They were placed to indicate the latent Incentre and Circumcentre centroids. The ancient world understand only 3 centroids and I speculate in the Giza Centroid Theory that through understanding these features as being indicative of their latent centroid, a very unique triangle can be reconstructed,

the apex of which points to a specific location in the Egyptian desert to the southwest of Menkaure. I recently attempted to reach this location but it is entirely sealed off with walls, fences, watchtowers and guards (some bearing arms). Odd that you can have free access to the most sacred structures in all Egypt but an area immediately adjacent to it is totlly sealed off.

2) They are a timing mechanism. They indicate 'shining stars' i.e. stars above the horizon. The middle pyramid (G2) is devoid of these features thus perhaps indicating that its corresponding star - Al Nilam - has set below the horizon. We find such an arrangement of the Orion Belt stars c.10,500BC on the SW horizon.

SC: I am tending to lean towards John Anthony West's view on this one - the Sphinx may indeed predate the exisiting monuments. This is not to say, however, that there could not have been earlier structures at Giza (of great antiquity) that were built over by the pyramids of the 4th Dynasty Pharaohs.

PhotonEffect: Now I know that the Egyptians were said to reuse old wood from other locations to burn in the fires, but if the 3800 bc dates are accurate, that means they were reusing wood that was some 1200-1300 years old when constructing the GP. This does not compute.

Photon'Effect: You mentioned testing of timbers found within chambers of the GP...I'd be interested to know more about this if you could point me in the right direction.

PhotonEffect: Under these circumstances this could definitely be an explanation as to why Khufu would've 'built his' pyramid. I remember that you had mentioned that this plan or codex was found inscribed somewhere, Saqqara maybe? Or that there is a reference to it somehwere? I'd be curious to read about it.

SC:1) They were placed to indicate the latent Incentre and Circumcentre centroids. The ancient world understand only 3 centroids and I speculate in the Giza Centroid Theory that through understanding these features as being indicative of their latent centroid, a very unique triangle can be reconstructed,

PhotonEffect: Quite frankly Scott, I don't understand what those terms mean. I think you discussed them in one of you other threads, and again I would be very interested to read up on this and try to wrap my head around it.

PhotonEffect: Have you by chance read Colin Readers study of Giza?

SC: For one thing the c-14 dating from mortar samples near the top of the Great Pyramid are older than those at the bottom of the pyramid, seemingly indicating that the pyramid was constructed from the top-down!!

SC: If a 1,000 year old tree was felled today it will produce c-14 dates ranging from 2008AD to 1008AD. Thus we would find more c14 data with 2008 dates because the rings of the tree are larger. We would also find lower quantities of 1008 c14 dates because the rings would have been smaller whent he tree was much younger.

So, it is entriely possible for one tree to produce a wide range of c14 dates. This is perhaps why scientists tend to provide average dates and also prefer to date plants (short-lived) carbon material.

SC: As said previously, there are a number of wooden beams/lintels used in the construction of some chambers in a number of pyramids. I noticed these in the Great Pyramid and at Meidum.

I would be surprised if samples from these had not been dated. I am still trying to find a specific reference to this and will let you know.

Some suggest that carbon dating the wood would allow accurate dating of the Pyramid because wood must have been left in the shaft when the Pyramid was constructed (given that the shaft was sealed) but I contend that this is not absolute. Wood may been placed in the shaft after construction via the shaft’s exit, if one exists.

SC: Yes - there's a good article from Colin here:

www.hallofmaat.com...

Hans:Hawass wall is to keep people out of the Pyramid area - not keep them in, the outer wire barrier is a security fence-that is designed to keep people out.

Hans: All you need to do is cross the Hawass wall. If you are concerned about the locals/security obtain a knowledgeable guide - a 100 Egyptian pounds would take care of security concerns. I presume you are of European descent and can look like a tourist? Let me guest you didn't ask anyone if you could cross the wall did you?

Hans: I walked over that area in 92 and again in 94, nothing on the surface. If anything is there you'd have dig - so "securing" it is meaningless.

SC: For one thing the c-14 dating from mortar samples near the top of the Great Pyramid are older than those at the bottom of the pyramid, seemingly indicating that the pyramid was constructed from the top-down!!

Photon: It is indeed, but seeing as how that could be very unlikely, perhaps this is indicative of repair work that was done on the lower portions of the pyramid in later years (later being the time of Khufu). Just a thought.

SC: If a 1,000 year old tree was felled today it will produce c-14 dates ranging from 2008AD to 1008AD. Thus we would find more c14 data with 2008 dates because the rings of the tree are larger. We would also find lower quantities of 1008 c14 dates because the rings would have been smaller whent he tree was much younger.

Phonton: So in this regard (yours was a great explanation by the way, thank you) the material which yielded dates of 3800 bc and 3100 bc could be said to be more at the latter end of that particular tree's life span, hence pushing back the age of that tree even further.

Photon: I guess the problems I have is that we have no idea at what point in that tree's life it was used as fire wood or building material. (IOW, was it an old tree or a young tree) Were the samples taken for dating from the same tree or from different trees? Or were they taken from older structures? Were the samples tainted in any way? etc etc.

These are but a few of the reasons why I consider the dating evidence to be highly unreliable for establishing a concrete date for the pyramids in question. It should be labeled as such, but it never is. And I feel that the dates which coincide with what mainstream egyptologists have established for Giza are the ones they pay attention to and talk about, conveniently weeding out the anomalous ones. (maybe by taking an avg)

SC: As said previously, there are a number of wooden beams/lintels used in the construction of some chambers in a number of pyramids. I noticed these in the Great Pyramid and at Meidum.

Photon: Would you be able to elaborate a bit more, based on what you saw, on how they were used within the construction of the chambers in the GP? I haven't been able to find any info on dating from samples of any wood from inside the GP. I find this to be very curious, although I may be missing something in my searches.

Hans: Why didn't you just cross Hawass's wall?

What may also be muddying the waters somewhat is a scenario where the deforestation of the Memphite area required the acquisition of wood (trees) from wider afield i.e. from areas where ancient forests grew and where trees would be much older.

Essentially what you could find then is mortar that was manufactured c.2,600BC producing C-14 dates of 3,800BC.

SC: The point here being, however, that we simply are not talking about pyramids being built c.10,500BC or anywhere near that remote date.

Certainly there is a view emerging (and the work of Colin Reader seems to lend some support to it) that Giza evolved from an earlier plan. Reader suggest perhaps only a few hundred years earlier but Schoch and West still believe - through their weathering investigation of the Sphinx and its enclosure - the date to be much further back to when Egypt had a much wetter climate.

SC: I think the problem with a lot of Egyptologists is the stubborness bordering on dogma that they got their sums wrong with the King Lists.

SC: There are a couple of wooden lintels runnng across the ceiling of the descending passsage, about half-way down before the subtarranean chamber of the Great Pyramid. If my memory serves me correctly, there are also some wooden beams in the Grand Gallery of the GP.

SP:you do know what was in the codex? You have checked?