Have Christians Been Duped?

Originally posted by Simplynoone
The reason why that is necessary is because alot of believers do get confused ..easily on what scripture is saying (as you can see everyone has something they disagree on in at least a few places in their beliefs .and so.we all learn by arguing it because it makes us study it even deeper just to show someone they are wrong (lol even if they are not ) we learn so much more as we are studying to argue about it ..lol ...it at least gets some people back to reading the bible so they can grow in spirit (thats what the bible helps me to do ) ...........so this is a good thing ...
All learn through the process of argueing doctrine .(but we are supposed to be reasoning together not arguing )

I hope you get the point of why it is a good thing to discuss doctrine (beliefs)..and what scripture says ......dont you ? It is for reproof ...and for instruction in rightousness...I think learning the truth (not just your version of it or one you think is close but may not be the whole enchilada and you can only find out what that is by reading it .. ) it is important to know the scriptures ...and of course be able to discern what it means or does not mean ..some cannot even discern because they either do not have the spirit in them or they do not listen to it (the word says you can quench the spirit of God within you ) ....if your quenching the spirit then you will not be hearing what it sayeth to your spirit .....we quench it when we sin willfully and dont want to hear the conviction from our heart (we dont want our concience bothering us) ..so we cut it off ..build a wall ..so we dont hear the spirit ....
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[edit on 16-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

While I could not disagree that discussion is important I also acknowledge that unity as a group is at the forefront of moving past simply having discussions and believing something to actually living it. Consider when Jesus said to walk into a home and say peace to this house and if it returns to you then leave. What is that? Do you know any one who can do that, what does that even mean?

To me it shows a much deeper, richer relationship with God, which I contest is not a result of knowing what doctrine or faith you are from. It is a natural result of the relationship you have with God. You can not be taught something like this, could you "in the flesh" even begin to try to do something like this? This is but one of many things that speak of spiritual awareness as well as understanding. Enlightenment.

I like to argue and enjoy heated debates. I can not stand to see people trying to control others with their loose interpretations of the bible or any text for that matter, or even their stringent interpretations with selective research. We are all different and have different roles and different hurdles, but a common theme in the bible is that there is much more to life (here) but not so much that we should be ineffective, unable and ignorant to the spiritual side of life.

It is very basic but the clouds created by trying to indoctrinate others or having been your self indoctrinated creates guilt that plagues the soul. If you can get past it I believe heaven opens up.

Thats why I think Christians have been duped. So many think the goal is to keep themselves saved when actually God wants us to progress past the cross of Christ, past the sacrificial lamb and into His glory into His presence.. Daily.

And then when some one looks past the cross and says he guys look over here man things are different but wow..... Automatic nut case or backslider or false prophet.

None the less I keep looking and I agree with the OP on some points. I think enlightenment is coming, I feel it. Heaven is opening up and I dont think God is limited to what we think He meant to say.

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by budro
John, none the less and by all means, fire away!

I almost forgot to say not a one liner.
I promise not to get my concordance out.

I'm all ears, you first.

OK. Staring over but even though I have a severe distaste for church in general as well as religion I dont like to cause people to doubt God but rather to seek Him further. So I may not be willing to participate fully because I know that if it were not for the fact that I have seen God do amazing things and felt His presence I would have stopped searching altogether.

To start what say you of the book of acts in comparison to where the church is today. Pick any part and to keep it on topic how does your opinion show that God's church even exists at all today.

[I think enlightenment is coming,]
\
Budro enlightenment should have already been coming DAILY in you ..
had you truly been born again ...and fed the spirit (THE WORD OF GOD) and continued to SEEK HIS PRESENCE ...and his WILL (which the word helps us to know what his will is ) .you would already be daily becoming more and more enlightened ..I do not wait for a day of enlightenment ...because it happens daily for me ....I feed the spirit its daily bread with PRAYER>>.with READING THAT WORD (Thy word have I hid in my heart so that I may not sin against him ) ...........And reaching out to other peoples ...,....


I do not see how anyone could not continue in that word as that word is MANNA from heaven ..it is our daily bread ..that will make us GROW spiritually >...

And other Christians ...helps me to learn alot more than I could actually learn on my own ..as sometimes I have trouble understanding ...and another believer ....even a preacher or two ..has really helped me to UNDERSTAND some things even better .....I thank GOD that they did not feel the need to just keep to themselves what they learn ..but shared what they found out in the word with me ..because it helped me STUDY even harder and seek the WILL OF GOD even more .....they helped me alot ..
And I PRAISE GOD they shared it with me ..
I did not just take their word for it though ...I STUDIED it myself and if it was something that was contrary to the word of God ....I spit it out ..(which the Holy Spirit whispers to me that it is not of God ) (you need to discern everything ) .but when it lined up with scripture ..I took it and ran with it ..DIGGING into it praying about it ..until I myself UNDERSTOOD it ......


Ecc 4:9 Two [are] better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour.

Ecc 4:10 For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him [that is] alone when he falleth; for [he hath] not another to help him up.


It can be a lonely world out there if Christians did not fellowship with other Christians ....

Even the apostles were sent out by TWOS .....for the reasons above ...
To TEACH ...that is what they were sent to do ..TEACH others about the Lord ...how can one know lest he hear of it ?
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Tts 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;


The Apostles were TAUGHT the word of GOD ..they wrote it down so that it was on paper so it did not get watered down in the telling of it ..
they taught others ..those others taught more peoples ...and on and on we go ...now the word has come down to us in our generation ...What are we supposed to do with it ? Read it and teach others of it too ...

Are all teaching the word of God NO ...but surely the spirit behind the word CAN AND WILL REACH ANYONE who even opens that book up to seek the word of the LORD GOD .....

I actually got a pamplet in the mail once ...with scripture on it ...I was a very backslidden believer living as I wanted to live ..But I noticed that scripture was TWISTED ...so I dug my bible out and dusted it off and started reading it again ...I found the scripture in question and sure enough it had been twisted to mean something other than what it7 meant ..
I just kept reading that word that day and before the day was out ..
THE SPIRIT of GOD had TOUCHED me again ..and I found myself on my knees AGAIN before GOD begging him for forgiveness ..and that day I rededicated my life back to the Lord ...

ALL BECAUSE of a FALSE TEACHER who printed something that was NOT TRUE on a pamplet I got in the mail ..

God can USE anyone and anything to reach others with ...


[edit on 17-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

Originally posted by Simplynoone


God can USE anyone and anything to reach others with ...


[edit on 17-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

That phrase says allot and opens many doors. I dont disagree with what you have said but I think there is an underlying message there.

Here goes nothing. I have dabbled with shamanism, talked to ghosts and have friends that witnessed their presence. My life has been filled with spiritual events. When I was saved, as i previously stated I was not content with the sinners prayer and knew that if this God, the father of Jesus had a Holy spirit I would be able to feel it. My third time up to the alter for the sinners prayer I told God that if he was real He would have to show me. You can not nor can any one else convince me that God is not real and that His spirit is not every where. I think one of the most memorable things for me was when I opened my eyes during worship and I was taller, I could see above the heads of those around me as if floating about 2 feet up.. No drugs, not an emotional fit, just worship.

I have felt and do feel what is referred to as the rivers of living water. I have prophesied in church sermons, interpreted tongues, condemned things in the spirit that died in the natural and was considered to be the balance of the church that I was most heavily involved with. I dont say this to boast but so you may know where I have been and am at spiritually. When I began to feel what I think is what God felt my zeal turned to grief. I did not ask for these things but they happened. I started to be able to "read peoples mail" and it wasnt long before I was trying to suppress these things because they did not line up with what the church wanted to do albeit none of it was out of line according to the word.

Some time passed and here I am, convinced that what I had experienced was just a small tid bit of a spiritual life. You can take the bible out of context or twist it into any concoction you like ( I'm not referring to you) but if some one shows up not with enticing words of mans wisdom but a demonstration of the spirits power it probably wont fit in very well. I mean come on we got to get this over with in time for the next sermon.

Im may be wrong but I think the OP has a similar desire. Mine is to seek this out, the spiritual side of life and see enlightenment come to pass. Not only in me but in people around me. I have been far more effective since leaving the church but that does not mean I am alone. Glory be Gods my life and the fruit of it speak of His goodness and people notice without having said a word.

Originally posted by budro
reply to post by Ichabod

...it is a resource to be used along with His guidance.

Jesus himself said that we will not need a teacher..What does that mean? If you seek he will lead you into all truth and believe me I dont say this haughtily but I think that is what pulled me from the Church. I was not happy with the fact that I knew of many Scriptures that were being out right ignored, lied about or explained away and then others would be used out of context to further the "doctrine" of choice.

What are those who dont have a bible to do? Is there no hope? No, actually their conscience serves as their guide.

What did the apostles and disciples in Jesus' time do? Did they have a bible or anything even close.

NO they lived it. It was written about them and their experiences with God. That is where I want to be. Not arguing about this doctrine or that. I want to live it and experience it. And that leads me to my next point.

As one who earnestly desired to live as the disciples and apostles, to see all of the promised fruit, to walk in the spirit at all times, I began to realize that God was not being honored, His commandments (not the 10) were being ignored and false teaching was all around. Mans will and doctrine was at the forefront and this was/is not just any one church.

I could go on and list the scripture and commands but to what avail? Jezebel is alive and well in most of the church today while the real Church is out in the wood work, waiting, seeking and finding.

Well, I certainly sympathize with many of these points about false doctrine but doctrine is simply teaching. What is teaching? It's nothing more than sharing understanding. That's precisely why we need to continue studying the bible. Our conscience cannot be trusted because we are both influenced by flesh and the holy spirit, and the flesh is at war with the spirit. That's true for our teachers also. Furthermore, functioning in this world after salvation requires the application of a lot of wisdom just to avoid sinful side effects from what are possibly well-intended actions that may satisfy your conscience just fine. The only place to get that wisdom is the bible.

As far as living like the apostles and disciples, they certainly had 2/3 of the bible already. They certainly instructed each other. Many were laypeople but they could read scripture I'm sure and they had the unique perspective of the physical Jesus in the OT scriptures. IMO, they interacted like everyone does, through personal conversation, letters, etc. They taught, the exhorted, they edified, they encouraged. I don't think it's a stretch to believe that their letters were passed around, transcribed, and carried from church to church as the basis of early doctrine.

So, maybe I misunderstand your basic points here but I don't ascribe to an approach to avoid other believers (or unbelievers who are seeking) and avoid church doctrines because there is some unsoundness in them. I say stay in the fight and keep working to help yourself and others understand the bible. Of course, there are limits...when the doctors of damnation get in control for instance...but I trust that like Paul we'll know when to flee.

Someone once told me, "When you find your perfect church, don't go in, you'll ruin it." haha

Fight the good fight, finish the race, keep the faith.

reply to post by budro

None the less I keep looking and I agree with the OP on some points. I think enlightenment is coming, I feel it. Heaven is opening up and I dont think God is limited to what we think He meant to say.

You can take the bible out of context or twist it into any concoction you like ( I'm not referring to you) but if some one shows up not with enticing words of mans wisdom but a demonstration of the spirits power it probably wont fit in very well. I mean come on we got to get this over with in time for the next sermon.

Im may be wrong but I think the OP has a similar desire. Mine is to seek this out, the spiritual side of life and see enlightenment come to pass. Not only in me but in people around me. I have been far more effective since leaving the church but that does not mean I am alone.

Thank you for understanding my efforts.

The wonderful thing about growing spiritually is that we don't all have to have the exact frame of reference! We don't have to agree on every point.

This is not socialism or communism. We each have our own relationship with God and no-one is to take his place. My role is just to get people to question. I have received this role from up high! There are many that believe in God but feel trapped.

If we have something to share, it is our obligation to share it, for it may lighten someone's load!

Enlightenment
Revival
Sanctification
Holiness
Purification
Illumination
Godliness
Righteousness


All things we could get caught up on in debate and miss the bigger picture. What need is there to elaborate on any if we know God on a personal level? If He shows himself these things happen on their own and to me that is true enlightenment. When the masses dont need to have it explained to them because it is put in them, it becomes part of you, the words in the bible are alive inside and you dont need the paper with the words on it.

After all is it not suppose to be one in the same? Is He not the word? Does not His spirit fill the universe, all things?

In Ephesian.
May be able to comprehend with ALL the saints what is the width, and length, and depth, and height; to know the love of Christ which PASSES KNOWLEDGE, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.... endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Adam didn't become like God, he was lied to. What the book of Genesis needs is a good prequel to the Fall of Man chapter; the world can clear up a lot of misunderstandings. These gods you speak of know what I am talking about and they won't be very godlike after you here the secret of their power.

The world is not dysfunctional, it is as it should be. What you live in is your reality and until you let go of the lie it always will be. Death was promised and its being delivered, as expected.

reply to post by John Matrix


you still haven't responded to my question

What happened to cast the moat out of your own eye before you cast the beam out of your bothers? Or judge not that you be not judged.

no matter what you said to me i don't like what you said to these people. and i read all you other posts before i reponded to you the first time i know what has been said to you and what you have said to get that kind of a response.

Originally posted by budro

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by budro
John, none the less and by all means, fire away!

I almost forgot to say not a one liner.
I promise not to get my concordance out.

I'm all ears, you first.

OK. Staring over but even though I have a severe distaste for church in general as well as religion I dont like to cause people to doubt God but rather to seek Him further. So I may not be willing to participate fully because I know that if it were not for the fact that I have seen God do amazing things and felt His presence I would have stopped searching altogether.

To start what say you of the book of acts in comparison to where the church is today. Pick any part and to keep it on topic how does your opinion show that God's church even exists at all today.

To be honest, I don't know much about the condition of the Church as described in the book of Acts. From what I read in the Epistles, there were lots of problems in the Churches. I have always been interested in the Church at Ephesus as Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians has some pretty strong Spiritual meat for such a short Epistle.

Anyway, I had been speaking to a few fellow Christians about starting a new thread, hopefully one that is not plagued by the ill mannered.
I would like to hear from you, so I will send a U2U message.

Thanks, and may the peace of God which passes all understanding rest upon you and all of my friends, and all of my Foes.

Originally posted by redwolf.of.odin
reply to post by John Matrix

 

you still haven't responded to my question

What happened to cast the moat out of your own eye before you cast the beam out of your bothers? Or judge not that you be not judged.

no matter what you said to me i don't like what you said to these people. and i read all you other posts before i reponded to you the first time i know what has been said to you and what you have said to get that kind of a response.

What that tells me is you side with them....so what? They are false teachers and they malign God's apostles as well as Christianity in general.
I have a right to express my opinion as much as you or they do.

What is the Log or Moat as you call it, that you are seeing in my eye?
Wait!!! Have you asked God to remove the Log in your own eyes first?
and
False teachers are NOT my brothers in Christ. Contending for the Faith requires one to point out false teachings by others. Jesus Himself ridiculed false teachers and called them the blind leading the blind, wolves in sheep's clothing, foxes, snakes, brood of vipers, etc, etc.

Now do you see?

[edit on 17-1-2009 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by redwolf.of.odin
reply to post by John Matrix

 

you know whats funny your choose of what to reply to i have posted my basic beliefs on here you just must have over looked that one when you where condemning everyone.

I did not condemn anyone. I simply evaluated their false teaching and told them what I thought of it. Perhaps you should look in the mirror and get off your bully pulpit.
Wakey wakey!!

reply to post by John Matrix


what you said was they are going strait to hell and that sounds alot like condemnation to me. and who said i had to remove a mote from my eye its your bible not mine. as i said be fore i don't believe that any of the religions got the whole truth so i choose not to follow any of them. i was pointing out for you in your own bible what you where doing wrong.

And whats up that's one of the most quoted sentances in the bible and you don't know what a moat is.

* Matthew 7:3 KJV

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

* Matthew 7:4 KJV

Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold , a beam is in thine own eye?

* Matthew 7:5 KJV

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

* Matthew 7:1 KJV

Judge not, that ye be not judged .

The discusion on this thread was completely peacefull be for you decided to rip apart every post one at a time. then you get mad when some one gets mad. This isn't about who is on who's side i dis agree with the OP on some points but we have discused them without a problem. if you had come onto this thread with a little more respect for the opposing view then no one would have said a thing.

Originally posted by Equinox99
reply to post by theendisnear69

 

You are right in a way. However you must not do something because you are told. You should do something because of self righteousness. That is why I stopped being a Christian and I am slowly starting to accept the teachings of Christ on my own. In the end the church is not going to judged because of your sins, nor the pope, nor will the priest it will be you. So seek God in your own way and not the mainstream way.

You must be a believer. I'm glad to hear that you read and study the bible. I think the deciever is ourselves, not God.
what do you think?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by redwolf.of.odin
reply to post by John Matrix

 

what you said was they are going strait to hell and that sounds alot like condemnation to me. and who said i had to remove a mote from my eye its your bible not mine. as i said be fore i don't believe that any of the religions got the whole truth so i choose not to follow any of them. i was pointing out for you in your own bible what you where doing wrong.

And whats up that's one of the most quoted sentances in the bible and you don't know what a moat is.

I don't normally use King James. Newer translations are easier to read. There are 600 words in the KJV which are archaic and not used in our modern English. Try a newer version, you would be surprised at how much easier it is to understand.
I'm sorry, I did not realize that you require perfection from anyone who makes a stand for the Faith and contends with false teachers.
Mote, Log, Flaw, whatever.
You are in no state to determine what my faults are.
I see no point in further discussion with you.
Good luck in your search for enlightenment.

[edit on 17-1-2009 by John Matrix]

[I think enlightenment is coming]

Budro ...scripture would disagree with you ...

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(((((((((That falling away is certainly already happening more and more everyday is not ?))))))))))))))

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
((((((((((((did you notice the COMMANDING to abstain from meats ...sound familar how these days they are really pushing hard for all to stop eating animals >.I am not sure about the forbidding oto marry is ...possibly the way some Churchs believe that a divorced women cannot remarry..))))))))))))))))))))))))))

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

According to scripture the only form of enlightenment that is coming is nothing but lies ...from the father of lies ..the devil ...>

Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Notice it says no HEARING OF THE WORDS OF THE LORD ?Wonder why there wont be no hearing of it if Christians are still here ..they would surely be telling it .....so
Christians just may not be here much longer (either Raptured or Killed or both ) ..because you know if they were here they would surely be TELLING IT ...just like they are now .....

Originally posted by Simplynoone
[I think enlightenment is coming]

Budro ...scripture would disagree with you ...

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(((((((((That falling away is certainly already happening more and more everyday is not ?))))))))))))))

Referring to the coming of the Lord. Not the enlightenment I refer to.

Originally posted by Simplynoone

According to scripture the only form of enlightenment that is coming is nothing but lies ...from the father of lies ..the devil ...>

Jn 16:13-14
Joel 2:31 repeated Acts 2:16

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Notice it says no HEARING OF THE WORDS OF THE LORD ?Wonder why there wont be no hearing of it if Christians are still here ..they would surely be telling it .....so
Christians just may not be here much longer (either Raptured or Killed or both ) ..because you know if they were here they would surely be TELLING IT ...just like they are now .....

Who's to say that what I feel as an opening up of the heavens does not fit in to this picture. You see its is to easy to spew scripture back and forth and I really dont like doing that on a blog. I can come up with many more to prove my point. I am not basing my feelings and thoughts about enlightenment on the word. I am basing them off of the Spirit. I can feel it.

Amos 3:7

reply to post by budro

Personally I believe in a pretrib rapture (yeah I know it is not very popular) they will be out of here (meet the Lord in the air) ..and those who will be called to DIE for HIM *(the beheaded saints) during midtrib ....will recieve power and strength (enlightenment)in order to make it through that horrible time ..(so will the 144,000 ) ..I personally believe these are those in the book of Daniel

Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].
..but all others will not ...the word says their hearts will grow cold because of all that is coming on the earth ..................and many will turn away from the truth ..and believe lies ..(this is sure happening alot )........


Of course your entitled to your opinion ...and so am I ...
I hope your right actually ..I could use some more real enlightenment about now in this messed up world ...................

I just started a new thread that some of you might be interested in. I certainly hear many people question God and is he cruel. I thought that I would add my 2 cents in:

Is God Cruel or Just Misunderstood?

Originally posted by Simplynoone
reply to post by budro

 

Personally I believe in a pretrib rapture (yeah I know it is not very popular) they will be out of here (meet the Lord in the air) ..and those who will be called to DIE for HIM *(the beheaded saints) during midtrib ....will recieve power and strength (enlightenment)in order to make it through that horrible time ..(so will the 144,000 ) ..I personally believe these are those in the book of Daniel

Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].
..but all others will not ...the word says their hearts will grow cold because of all that is coming on the earth ..................and many will turn away from the truth ..and believe lies ..(this is sure happening alot )........


Of course your entitled to your opinion ...and so am I ...
I hope your right actually ..I could use some more real enlightenment about now in this messed up world ...................

I am not so much concerned about the coming of the lord, the rapture, the tribulation. I try to look at now. I gave up trying to figure out the timing after researching many view points.

My living grand father in law has always held that Jesus was coming back before he would pass and there have been many times that he thought he knew when it would happen. I have as well heard many others say that they think they know and then some that say it already happened.

Only problem I see with that is if you base your ministries around such doctrine. How much more effective could one be if they focused on understanding the need right in front of them instead of trying to figure out the mysteries that God said we could not figure out.

Hey, I am right about the enlightenment thing, inhale, He is right there in the very air you breath.