Royal Order of Jesters testify about Illegal Drugs, Child Prostitution

Originally posted by yankeerose
All I am trying to say is I find it amazing that they are even being charged. You hardly ever hear of these claims being investigated much less actually charged. Why? Because Masons are involved in every level of the process... they are the cops, detectives, doctors, district attorneys, judges, politicians... and they are sworn to protect one another... even to the point of perjury. In my opinion they are almost untouchable.

Really? Check out Paul Bernardo.

He's inside for life.

Originally posted by yankeerose
they are sworn to protect one another... even to the point of perjury.

Where do you get stuff like this? Have you actually read our ritual? For someone who says they are suspicious, you seem to not have done any research on all the PUBLICALLY AVAILABLE RITUAL.

If you had, you would notice things like this:

In the State you are to be a quiet and peaceable citizen, true to your government and just to your country. You are not to countenance disloyalty or rebellion, but patiently submit to legal authority, and conform with cheerfulness to the government of the country in which you live.

That comes from the CHARGE (the, "heres what you need to do now" part) of the first degree. Well now, there goes your whole "sworn to protect to the point of perjury" down the drain. I again am amazed that people just don't read the publically available ritual. If they did, it would be obvious that many of these beleifs are simply wrong.

Originally posted by yankeerose
All I am trying to say is I find it amazing that they are even being charged. You hardly ever hear of these claims being investigated much less actually charged. Why? Because Masons are involved in every level of the process... they are the cops, detectives, doctors, district attorneys, judges, politicians... and they are sworn to protect one another... even to the point of perjury. In my opinion they are almost untouchable.

I am always amazed with the absolutely huge amounts of power people give masons. My lodge cannot even coordinate a pancake breakfast, yet masons are somehow capable of escaping the iron hand of the law.

Rotary club members, college fraternity and sorority members are involved in every level of the process...they are the cops, detectives, doctors, district attorneys, judges, politicians. AGAIN, I ask, why are you not suspicious with them? They are charged with crimes too, you know.

Originally posted by yankeerose
No one can deny the great charitable work Freemasons have done. One should be in awe of their brotherhood, and the power they have to do great things for society.

But wait - didn't you just call all shriners liars, adulterers, drunks, etc.? While I am happy to see this admission, it certainly isn't consistent with your other posts. Not all masons are shriners, but all shriners are masons.

Originally posted by yankeerose
But there is also a very dark side to Freemasonry. With great blessings comes great responsibility. I pray that the members will at least police their own, and attempt to live by the standards that they themselves would find abhorent if it were to happen to their own.

I realize its sexy to say things like "there is a dark side," but would you explain to me what this nefarious sounding verbiage is supposed to mean? I would love to see an example of any mason who has been tried and convicted of a crime who was not kicked out of all their masonic bodies, or a group of masons who did something wrong who did not have their charter revoked. Tell me, where is this "dark side "of perverting justice and unchecked corruption?

I do not know of anyone, mason or non-mason, who thinks masons are prefect. They are men, and in their capacity as men, they do bad things. But that has nothing to do with their masonic affiliation.

Originally posted by yankeerose
If the accusations made against these Shriners are true, then they should be punished as any other non Mason would be. No one should be above the law... not in America.

This is a very clear straw man attempt. Is anyone arguing that shriners are above the law, and does anyone think that, if true, these people should not be punished? No. But by making this argument, you give the illusion that someone would somehow disagree with it - but no one does.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by jaamaan
Well i think the Federal court has a different look on this case than you do.
Like i said before, these are serious accusations and the Federal court seems to think so to.

Really? Show us where! It's a federal case about slander! It's even a civil case, not a criminal case. The feds have no interest in the jesters. Only in deciding if one person lied when he talked bad about another person. The jesters are witnesses.

“their first hand knowledge of prostitution, minor prostitution, use of illegal drugs and/or entry into Indian reservations by Schair (plaintiff) and/or his customers.”
sandyfrost.newsvine.com...

Also named on the witness list is Jane Doe, 1 – 5, who each “has personal knowledge of prostitution, minor prostitution, use of illegal drugs, and/or entry into Indian reservations by Schair and/or his customers.” Jane Doe is described as a minor recruited and/or coerced by Plaintiffs and/or Plaintiff’s representatives for prostitution services for certain of the Plaintiffs’ customers in Brazil during approximately the year of 2000, 2004 and 2005.
sandyfrost.newsvine.com...

I am not that familiar with the American legal system but it seems to me that some goverment justice people are looking into the accusations against the tour operator AND his costumers

19 witnesses who are believed to be members of the Royal Order of Jesters (ROJ) AKA Shriners AKA Masons
sandyfrost.newsvine.com...

reply to post by jaamaan


Since when are witnesses guilty of the crimes they witnessed?

The pure lack of logical common sense is.. astounding.

No one is being tried for anything .. they are just witnesses in a CIVIL suit of SLANDER.

I won't re-post my first post.. but all I can say is seriously... read and COMPREHEND your own source ...

EDIT: What Rockpuck said.

[edit on 3/11/2008 by JoshNorton]

reply to post by jaamaan


Charged, tried and convicted by implication in one person's blog. Thank Carp jurisprudence in your country, mine and most of the rest of the world relies on something a tad more compelling than that kind of heresay.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Thirded.

So when comes the donder und blitzen? This is so lacking in substance, it's ridiculous!

Originally posted by intrepid
Really? Check out Paul Bernardo.

He's inside for life.

Mind you, his not-so-blushing bride got off light. Honestly, you have to wonder who the real brains were behind that couple.

Anyway, back to your regularly-scheduled thread

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Since when are witnesses guilty of the crimes they witnessed?

The pure lack of logical common sense is.. astounding.

No one is being tried for anything .. they are just witnesses in a CIVIL suit of SLANDER.

I won't re-post my first post.. but all I can say is seriously... read and COMPREHEND your own source ...

I never convicted any one, nor did i found any one guilty of any thing, like i said i am no jugde.

And they are more than "just" witnesses

their first hand knowledge of prostitution, minor prostitution, use of illegal drugs and/or entry into Indian reservations by Schair (plaintiff) and/or his customers.”

In my original post there is some more information that could make it look like this is not an isolated incident but maybe something more structural.

Maybe that explains my logic a little more.

However, allegations of prostitution activity at Jesters conventions have surfaced publicly at least once before — during a federal court case in Milwaukee, Wis., in February 1990, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

According to the newspaper’s account, a woman admitted to a federal judge that she ran an interstate prostitution business and was hired to provide prostitutes for Jesters conventions in New Orleans, Houston, Chicago and other locations, including some in other countries.

The newspaper reported that the woman, speaking at her sentencing, told the judge that “well-to-do businessmen, mayors and aldermen” were among the Jesters’ members, and that uniformed police officers sometimes provided security at the events.
www.buffalonews.com...

I mean, is there a pattern showing here?

Again serious accusations.

Originally posted by jaamaan

According to the newspaper’s account, a woman admitted to a federal judge that she ran an interstate prostitution business and was hired to provide prostitutes for Jesters conventions in New Orleans, Houston, Chicago and other locations, including some in other countries.

The newspaper reported that the woman, speaking at her sentencing, told the judge that “well-to-do businessmen, mayors and aldermen” were among the Jesters’ members, and that uniformed police officers sometimes provided security at the events.
www.buffalonews.com...

I mean, is there a pattern showing here?

Again serious accusations.

Serious accusations? Check out the bold. Who's the victim here? Personally I don't get what's wrong with prostitution. As Carlin said(cleaned up of course), "Selling is legal, sex is legal, why isn't selling sex legal?"

Also not quoted from that piece:

Officials in the group’s headquarters said they were not aware of the investigation in Buffalo and have not been contacted about it by police.

To hear of the investigation from a reporter was “unnerving and shocking,” Rogers said.

“We certainly don’t stand for any of that stuff,” he said.

OK, they don't get what Carlin says either but they make the point that this isn't the norm.

Originally posted by jaamaan
I mean, is there a pattern showing here?

Again serious accusations.

Not serious at all. Just someone who made a unverifiable accusation in 1990, in an attempt to shift the blame, which is not in any way related to this case. Even in the event that there were any validity to it (and there is none - so far all we have is statements) - two events doth not a pattern make.

Originally posted by jaamaan
I mean, is there a pattern showing here?

If an 18-year-old story qualifies as a pattern......

Originally posted by jaamaan
Again serious accusations.

Operative word? Accusations. Bit of a stretch in any case

Authorities said they became aware of the road trip because the woman had worked at one of four area massage parlors that were raided and shut down in December in connection with the prostitution and human trafficking case.

Under the federal Mann Act, it is illegal to transport a woman over state lines for the purposes of prostitution.

Since learning about the alleged road trip, agents from the FBI and U.S. Border Patrol have been investigating the local Jesters chapter, which is known as the Jesters Buffalo Court No. 22. Police also are investigating whether there were other incidents of prostitutes transported across state lines so they could attend Jesters conventions in other cities.
www.buffalonews.com...

This is not just about prostitution here but also about human trafficking.
Again quite some accusations.
Serious enough for the FBI and U.S. Border patrol to look into the case.
I never get accused of human trafficking, and beeing involved in Illegal Drugs and Child Prostitution.

No one convicted, but are there more of these cases ?

Originally posted by intrepid
As Carlin said(cleaned up of course), "Selling is legal, sex is legal, why isn't selling sex legal?"

I hear what you are saying, but.

Apply this logic to other legal matters and you could find yourself in a big mess very quickly.
I dont think you need examples.

And again, i dont think sex trafficking fits in your example.

reply to post by jaamaan


Care to stay OT? This 18-year-old case has what relevance to a slander suit in 2007? You seem to be trying to weave a web of connections that don't exist in reality.

Is the answer in a 2005 complaint that was sent to and investigated by the Grand Lodge of Texas?
-
The complaint also alleged that:
•Prostitutes were available for Jesters to have their way with
•Brothers had sex in front of other brothers
•Brothers held oral sex competitions
•Potentates, Chaplains, Attorneys, Judges and Past Masters were Jesters
•Sex, illegal gambling and alcohol were the preferred order of business
-
The complaint asked the Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Texas to investigate the Jesters for:
•Actions which disgrace Masonry
•Indulging in the intemperate use of intoxicating liquor
•Gambling
•Profane swearing
•Willfully abandoning their families
•Cohabiting with lewd women
-
The investigation yielded no prosecutions.
freemasoninquirer.blogspot.com...

Quite some complaint again against the jesters.

A pattern so far could be, sex orgies.
But no prosecutions.
Is this because all was slander?
Or could it be that these man are indeed so powerfull that they allways have the right friends to get them out?

Like i said i'm no judge, pretty far from one.

reply to post by jaamaan


Um, yeah. From your source, it's mission statement if you will:

"The American Masonic System out of Touch and Intolerate of the Present and Future of Humankind"

Could that site actually put forth anything unbiased?

Btw, I'm not a Mason. And no, I didn't play one on TV either.

Originally posted by jaamaan

The investigation yielded no prosecutions.
freemasoninquirer.blogspot.com...

I took the liberty of bolding the relevant passage. Care to enlighten how this was worth the photons to display it?

Originally posted by jaamaan
Quite some complaint again against the jesters.

But oddly enough, the case that the OP was about was about slander, was it not? Correct me if I'm wrong but we aren't anywhere on-topic, are we?

Originally posted by jaamaan
A pattern so far could be, sex orgies.
But no prosecutions.
Is this because all was slander?

Sure lookin' that way, Kemo Sabe!

Originally posted by jaamaan
Or could it be that these man are indeed so powerfull that they allways have the right friends to get them out?

If they were that powerful, how is it they didn't manage to avoid the stigma in the first place? Surely men that powerful should have no problem keeping something like that out of the media if it'd actually taken place? Don't you think?

Originally posted by intrepid
Um, yeah. From your source, it's mission statement if you will:

"The American Masonic System out of Touch and Intolerate of the Present and Future of Humankind"
-
Btw, I'm not a Mason. And no, I didn't play one on TV either.

It was not the only source reporting it, but maybe you have a point.

And Btw i got nothing against masons in general nor against you or any one here