Royal Order of Jesters testify about Illegal Drugs, Child Prostitution, page 2

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reply posted on 10-3-2008 @ 07:21 PM by JoshNorton

Originally posted by yankeerose
Are there any Official Freemason texts, or a Mason handbook that are available to the public? They are a secret society, and their manuals are copyrighted... so I do not think that there would be such a book that could be quoted without breaking the law.

And you would be wrong. Quoting a portion of a copyrighted text for purposes of comment generally falls under the Fair Use clause of the Copyright law. (Title 17, Section 107, if I remember correctly...)

And yes, there is a lot of publicly available material, but since there's no one governing body for all of Freemasonry, things will be different from country to country or state to state. Most official texts won't disclose the specifics of a ritual, but there's a lot of text that is "monitorial" or published in The Monitor of the Lodge, which anyone can buy (at least in my state)... big chunks of the lectures, descriptions of the working tools, assorted possible prayers for different occasions, and even a glossary of masonic terms and their definitions and pronunciations.

reply posted on 10-3-2008 @ 07:47 PM by pacificwind

Originally posted by yankeerose
Are there any Official Freemason texts, or a Mason handbook that are available to the public? They are a secret society, and their manuals are copyrighted... so I do not think that there would be such a book that could be quoted without breaking the law.

Yes, lots of them. You can find every single ritual you want to. Everything. You can even go look through the records of your town lodge, most of them keep archives at the universities close to them. Nothing is officially freemason, of course, because there is no "official freemason" body that speaks for everyone. There are texts published by state grand lodges, which are the "official" texts for that state.

Originally posted by yankeerose
Also, I am just telling you the way it was when the Shriners were in town. It wasn't the parades and such people were worried about... it was the drunken Shriners that were in every bar, massage parlor, and hotel in the downtown area... that's what people were concerned about. And there were hundreds of them, all in their little Ali Baba outfits raising hell...lol I guess it's hard for me to respect any organization, once you have seen them behave that way in public.

I have no doubt that you are over exaggerating because, as we have seen, you see the world with a very radical pair of glasses. I have been to many academic conventions, and let me tell you, those darn professors and graduate students were in every bar, massage parlor, and hotel in the towns they hold conferences in. Do you get frightened when people who share the same characteristic congregate? According to your logic, anytime people congregate and share a characteristic they should be feared, and oh, all non-masons share the same characteristics (since the masons do, according to your logic). I hope you also cower in fear anywhere large masses of non-masons (most of the population) gather.

Originally posted by yankeerose
I do not hate Shriners... I just think they are racist, sexist, adulterous, liars, that think they are above the law. I came to that conclusion by observing, and working with them for years. And before you even ask... no I never met one who wasn't.

The irony amazes me. I'm amazed at such bigoted statements. Will you next tell me that all black people are criminals and stupid, or all white people are rednecks and illiterate? One day I hope you realize that generalizing to an entire group of people based on what you HEARD (since mommy kept you inside, you didn't even see any of this - its all hearsay) is not only bound to be incorrect, but it demonstrates a lack of critical thinking.

Originally posted by yankeerose
So say what you will about me, try and discredit me, do what you do best... but the truth still stands. It is MY truth based on MY experiences dealing with Freemasons both at work and socially... and there isn't anything you can do to change it.

There is no need to discredit you. Your statements do it on your own. The truth still stands that you have demonstrated a shocking lack of knowledge about even the most basics of masonry (like the fact that there is no relationship between Skull and Bones and freemasonry). Then, you expect everyone to believe you when you start telling us **all shriners** are any number of horrible things...because mommy kept you inside when you were young.

It is your truth, and only your truth. Because reality is much different. No one is trying to change your view because your radical bigoted agenda is quite clear. You are not here to discuss anything except forcing your agenda on everyone else.

[edit on 10-3-2008 by pacificwind]

reply posted on 10-3-2008 @ 08:54 PM by senrak

Originally posted by yankeerose
These type of parties and shenanigans have been going on for years, especially at Shriner Conventions. When I was a teenager in Duluth, MN... there were two times during the summer when my Mom would not let me go out unless I was with my big brother... the first was when the Navy came to town, and the second was when the Shriners were in town. And the Shriners were far more ill behaved than the sailors by a long shot. Not to mention that to a 15 year old girl, the Shriners were dirty old men who acted like they had just hit the Viagra mother-lode or something. And this was 30 years ago!

yankeerose,

I'm sorry to hear that your own Mom didn't trust you enough to allow you to go outside during these times. I'm sure that was difficult for you. But remember, Mother knows best!

As for your signature line and the replies, etc. John Wayne was a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason and a Shriner.

I suppose your Mom wouldn't have trusted you to spend time with him either. (God rest his soul)

Truly, I am sorry you have these low self-esteem issues, but it is understandable considering the circumstances.

I wish you the best.

reply posted on 10-3-2008 @ 10:18 PM by yankeerose

These are the personal attacks from this thread made upon myself:

1. Nice attempt at hate mongering
2. absurd paranoia
3. your a radical that views everything with crazy-far-left-liberal colored glasses
4. you clearly show you have no idea what is going on
5. No wonder your mom wouldn't let you out
6. so clearly your mom (a non-mason) was plotting to kill them all.
7. you are over exaggerating
8. you see the world with a very radical pair of glasses
9. According to your logic, anytime people congregate and share a characteristic they should be feared
10. I hope you also cower in fear
11. such bigoted statements
12. you have demonstrated a shocking lack of knowledge
13. you expect everyone to believe you when you start telling us **all shriners** are any number of horrible things...because mommy kept you inside when you were young
14. change your view because your radical bigoted agenda is quite clear
15. your own Mom didn't trust you
16. your Mom wouldn't have trusted you
17. you have these low self-esteem issues

Terms and Conditions of Membership for the AboveTopSecret.com Message Board(s)

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, hateful and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

2d.) Forum Gangs: You will not engaged in an organized collaboration with other members to disrupt thread topics or interrupt the flow of normal collaborative discussion. Doing so will result in immediate termination of posting privileges.

I have not attacked anyone on this forum. My comments were aimed at Shriners and Freemasonry in general. I have only spoken of my own personal experiences. And because I dared to post an opinion on a thread in the Secret Societies forum that was anti-masonry.... this is what happened.

Masons do not own this forum. All members have a right to voice their opinion on a topic and be free from personal attack. If Masons and their assorted friends do not like what a member posts than you have every right to respond with your own opinion or experiences. You are NOT allowed to attack anyone personally as you have done to me on this thread.

I have had enough of the mason antics in this forum, and I am not going to take it anymore. If you want to know why masonry is disliked and untrusted... look in the mirror. Thank you for reassuring me that my view of Freemasonry is correct, as is evident by some of your responses.

reply posted on 10-3-2008 @ 11:14 PM by pacificwind

reply to post by yankeerose

I'm sorry but...quite wrong. I do admire your attempt to play the victim though. I know its much easier to act like a victim than answer your own logic. In all actuality, you take everything to be a description of your tactics (which are classic hate mongering and fear mongering) as insults. This is like saying that you can't call something with two wings that flies a bird. It would be insulting the bird, to describe what it is - at least to you.

And now, a list of your insults:

dirty old men
they had just hit the Viagra mother-lode
another case of the neocons
Nazi
drunken Shriners
all in their little Ali Baba outfits
racist
sexist
adulterous
liars

Now would you like to justify your logic and provide any sort of evidence for the quite radical claims you have given...or continue to dodge the reality that you have nothing to back up your claims? But I know its much easier to go screaming about TOS - which, so far, all have abided by here. Even you. But you are getting close to breaking it, from the way I read it.

I love how its called a "forum gang" (to you, it seems) just because numerous people - who are both masons and non-masons, from what I can tell by a quick search of their other posts - are somehow "ganging" up on you. Or could it be that the evidence does just not support yours claims. Nah. It MUST be a forum gang!

Same thing with the behavior. It's ok for you to insult and slander millions, but completely wrong for your actions to be described? Nice.

And finally - please, no one believes you would ever change your opinion masonry. Look at your insults. You have a preconceived opinion, based on your mother keeping inside, and refused to back up your assertions. You would never change your worldview, because you don't want to change it. I admit that I have not been here long, but I have seen *several* anti-mason posts that were backed up by ACTUAL SOURCES AND EVIDENCE which received stars and flags by people who also had the word "freemason" in their title or signature, or otherwise claimed to be a mason. There is a difference between intellectual discussion and hate mongering, and you are doing the later. And it is quite obvious.

I am happy you have appointed yourself moderator to tell masons what they can and cannot do, but I wanted to fix that next to last paragraph for you:

Those who wish to bash masons do not own this forum. All members have a right to voice their opinion on a topic and be free from personal attack. If mason bashers and their assorted friends do not like what other masons or non-masons post than you have every right to respond with your own opinion or experiences. You are NOT allowed to lash out and attack as you have done to everyone who disagrees with you in this thread.

Fixed.

[edit on 10-3-2008 by pacificwind]

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 02:14 AM by deepdigger

Pacificwind,

You need to go back to the article and access the witness list. You will find that the 19 Jesters were on one specific trip. Take a look at the names, there were fathers and sons aboard. How do these guys go home and look their wives, mothers, daughters and daughter-in-laws, in the eye? This is not an isolated incident. Take a look at the guys names, do some research, see what you come up with, then let us know where this is going. The suit is not focusing on Masons but on Sex Tourism/Child Sex Tourism.

I agree that there are some good Masons but my experience is that they are in the minority. Where I am from, the Masons will overlook anything for a fellow Mason, twist the truth, abuse the law, etc. But then again some of my best friends are Masons.

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 02:42 AM by JoshNorton

Originally posted by deepdigger
The suit is not focusing on Masons but on Sex Tourism/Child Sex Tourism.

No, this suit is focusing on one tourism company slandering another. Read the original complaint again. None of these men have been accused of ANYTHING in a court of law (so far as the original author has shown), much less convicted. They're WITNESSES in a dispute between two competing businesses. That's all. Or do we not believe in "innocent until proven guilty" anymore?

[edit on 3/11/2008 by JoshNorton]

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 03:01 AM by pacificwind

reply to post by deepdigger

Josh has already addressed what this is about. Did you not see my orginal posting that these people can and will be thrown out of their lodge? However, the fact is that these people did these things in their capactiy as men, not as masons. This desire to get out the torches whenever someone that is a mason does something wrong continues to amaze me. Of all the millions of masons, we of course focus on - 19 - who did something wrong and will be cut out of the fraternity because of it.

Do you have any evidence that "most masons" do anything you claim? Where I'm from, masons are outstanding citizens and while they are not perfect, they are upstanding men that can be trusted by anyone. And it was exactly their outstanding character quality which made me join.

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 06:10 AM by jaamaan

As the fez-heads whooped and cheered the women kissed and fondled each other, and then allowed themselves to be groped by the increasingly drunken crowd. Men poured beer on the women and put bottles between their legs, and several performed oral sex on the women. The reporters noted that the women tried to stop the men, complaining of discomfort, but to no avail. Several kitchen staff gathered in a doorway to watch. A separate guest room was set up with two hookers on the hotel's second floor, with a doorman accepting $100 for intercourse, $75 for blow jobs. When the sordid affair began to wind down, at least five men were still waiting in line for their turn -- apparently still fueled by the opportunity to donate more for the children.
archive.salon.com...

www.cbc.ca...

It seems that these men like their parties to be wild.
After reading some of these stories i tent to believe that mothers advice their children to stay home at these events.

Are these isolated incidents or is it a more structual problem.

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 06:35 AM by jaamaan

Originally posted by senrak
yankeerose,

I'm sorry to hear that your own Mom didn't trust you enough to allow you to go outside during these times. I'm sure that was difficult for you. But remember, Mother knows best!

As for your signature line and the replies, etc. John Wayne was a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason and a Shriner.

I suppose your Mom wouldn't have trusted you to spend time with him either. (God rest his soul)

Truly, I am sorry you have these low self-esteem issues, but it is understandable considering the circumstances.

I wish you the best.

Is this your contribution to the discussion ?
Please keep it more constructive.

[edit: some spelling]

[edit on 11-3-2008 by jaamaan]

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 08:21 AM by lost in the midwest

Woaaaa! Did I miss something here? in the intial post it said that the Jester were to be questioned, not tried or convicted. It all so stated that there was a shander charge against the person that made the statments. I think it might be better to wait and see what happens. If the Jesters are guilty of anything it will come out in the Main press soon. Remember the Duke Boys

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 08:49 AM by jaamaan

I think they are some serious accusations beeing made here.

So i dont think it is realy strange that it can make people wonder.

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 09:47 AM by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by deepdigger
The suit is not focusing on Masons but on Sex Tourism/Child Sex Tourism.
No, this suit is focusing on one tourism company slandering another. Read the original complaint again. None of these men have been accused of ANYTHING in a court of law (so far as the original author has shown), much less convicted. They're WITNESSES in a dispute between two competing businesses. That's all. Or do we not believe in "innocent until proven guilty" anymore?

But Josh? Why let something inconvenient like facts get in the way of a good slag? Having gone to the trouble of spending 5 minutes reading through claim, it seems pretty clear that this has nothing at all to do with child prostitution and everything to do with one tour operator's poor judgement in slagging a competitor. The clientelle on the trip was incidental and has no bearing on anything.

In short, the OP is made out of whole cloth (it's bull defacation).

Can we expect some almighty donder und blitzen from on high or is that expecting too much?

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 09:59 AM by intrepid

Originally posted by pacificwind
And now, a list of your insults:

dirty old men
they had just hit the Viagra mother-lode
another case of the neocons
Nazi
drunken Shriners
all in their little Ali Baba outfits
racist
sexist
adulterous
liars

And your point is what? I see no attacks on a member here. I am now aware of this thread though and if the personal attacks continue it will be dealt with.

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 10:32 AM by Rockpuck

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

A typical ATS case then... an OP who does not read their own article then posts some complete crap using a hate website to subsidize their own hate propaganda.

Then, of course, what would that be if it where not complete with other ATS'ers who did not read the article but post their own hate aditions, not based on educated research or logical conclusions, hell, thats to difficult. No instead irrational libel using no common sense or even the curtousy to read the article. Of course, some would read the article, at least from Freemasonrywatch.com because hell, thats a credible source of information. They read and they only see what they want to see.

Why did the OP see all Shriners and Masons as pedophiles? Because he/she WANTS us to be perverted criminals.. they WANT us to be as low as they think we are.

Its rather pathetic.

Like the sob story about the woman whos mom wouldn't let her out when "the Shriners came to town" which I assume means the Shriner Circus .. because we all know how much debautcher goes on at the Shriner Circus's right? Then all the money is used to fund vacations for Shriners to go to obscure countries to have illict acts with children.. none of that money goes to help anyone. Shriner hostpitals invented money trees where they hundreds of millions in funding magically grows from.

So I would advise all of you something, but hey, its not my place. All I can say is I joined Masonry so I wouldn't have to be associated with bigots and hatemongers like some people on these boards.

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 11:04 AM by pacificwind

reply to post by intrepid

The point is that I was responding to a post that decided to take things out of context and call them insults (the list being quite a non-list, if you read it), so I took out the actual insults that were used. If I said all moderators on ATS were racist, sexist, and pedophiles - would this insult you? However, I would much prefer we discuss the topic instead of trying to claim people are insulting each other - but I know doing so helps divert attention.

Anyways, back on topic...I know its fun to take out the torches and start mobbing people because they are (1) somehow related to freemasonry and (2) did something wrong, but any cursory read of the case shows its a slander suit and has devolved into a "he said/she said" that represents two people most likely trying to get back at each other by making ever-more outrageous claims. While it is certainly un-masonic to engage in such activities, it is not the same as child prostitution - or anything else people in this thread have tried and convicted all shriners of. I do not think a slander case indicates some sort of "structural problem." While I have no doubt shriners are men and I'm quite sure they all have character flaws - being mortal - I do not think it is appropriate to go rabid over a case like this. If its true, the people who did it should simply be kicked out. If.

Everyday, and everywhere, men and women are accused and found guilty of heinous crimes. From serial murder to rape to fraud, there are quite a few people who have charges brought up against them and even confirmed every single day. These men and women are many things: Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, members of book clubs, rotary club members, members of college sororities and fraternities. And yes, I'm quite sure you will find a mason in the crowd too. And yet, why is it when this happens we don't have threads claiming that all Christians, or all members of certain civil organizations are pedophiles, rapists, etc. - simply because members of that organization have been found doing some crime?

Because it isn't sexy. Doing so would show this circular reasoning for what it is, and it would not help people who seek ONLY to confirm their own worldview.

[edit on 11-3-2008 by pacificwind]

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 11:46 AM by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by pacificwind
If.

Therein lies the operative word. The problem seems to be that someone who appears to have an agenda is being most fanciful (not to mention playing fast and loose with the facts) and hiding behind an online pseudonym.

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 01:16 PM by jaamaan

Originally posted by Rockpuck

not based on educated research or logical conclusions, hell, thats to difficult. No instead irrational libel using no common sense or even the curtousy to read the article. Of course, some would read the article, at least from Freemasonrywatch.com because hell, thats a credible source of information. They read and they only see what they want to see.

Why did the OP see all Shriners and Masons as pedophiles? Because he/she WANTS us to be perverted criminals.. they WANT us to be as low as they think we are.

Well i think the Federal court has a different look on this case than you do.
Like i said before, these are serious accusations and the Federal court seems to think so to.

Could you please show me where the so called OP stated "see all Shriners and Masons as pedophiles?" (Quote from your own words)
Or anything close.

I am not judging any one, we have courts for that, thank god

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 01:36 PM by yankeerose

All I am trying to say is I find it amazing that they are even being charged. You hardly ever hear of these claims being investigated much less actually charged. Why? Because Masons are involved in every level of the process... they are the cops, detectives, doctors, district attorneys, judges, politicians... and they are sworn to protect one another... even to the point of perjury. In my opinion they are almost untouchable.

When I start to see that Masons are being charged with a crime, any crime... I am suspicious.

No one can deny the great charitable work Freemasons have done. One should be in awe of their brotherhood, and the power they have to do great things for society. But there is also a very dark side to Freemasonry. With great blessings comes great responsibility. I pray that the members will at least police their own, and attempt to live by the standards that they themselves would find abhorent if it were to happen to their own.

If the accusations made against these Shriners are true, then they should be punished as any other non Mason would be. No one should be above the law... not in America.

reply posted on 11-3-2008 @ 01:37 PM by JoshNorton

Originally posted by jaamaan
Well i think the Federal court has a different look on this case than you do.
Like i said before, these are serious accusations and the Federal court seems to think so to.

Really? Show us where! It's a federal case about slander! It's even a civil case, not a criminal case. The feds have no interest in the jesters. Only in deciding if one person lied when he talked bad about another person. The jesters are witnesses.

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