Sally Kern, "Gay's are Infiltrating our City Council."

Thank god someone speaks the truth. & in OKLAHOMA being on the Right is a good thing. I wouldn't worry to much Gays don't have a place in the midwest. Just the East & West coast. Praise for the good citizens who voted for her. She'll get reelected for sure now.

Originally posted by barmshadow84
Thank god someone speaks the truth. & in OKLAHOMA being on the Right is a good thing. I wouldn't worry to much Gays don't have a place in the midwest. Just the East & West coast. Praise for the good citizens who voted for her. She'll get reelected for sure now.

So then you agree with her on all her points?

Here they are, the things she said:

1. Gays are a bigger threat then terrorists, or Islam
2. The homosexual agenda is destroying this Nation
3. According to Gods word it's not the right kind of lifestyle and has deadly consequences.
4. Gays have more suicides, they are more discouraged, more illness, shorter lifespans,
5. Studies have shown that no Nation that totally embraced Homosexuality has lasted for more then a few decades.
6. Gays are going after children, as young as two years old, to teach them that the gay lifestyle is acceptable.
7. Gays are trying to push early childhood education so they can indoctrinate them
8. We are not teaching facts and knowledge anymore. We are teaching indoctrination. *shes means Gay teachers??*
9. Gays are inflitraing City Council
10. She goes on to list many City Councils that are controlled by gays, by winning elections.
11. She introduced a Bill that forces the schools to notify the parents what clubs/programs their kids were involved in, primarily because the students were joinging the Gay Straight Alliance and it was ruining the students lives.
12. Another person in legislature tells Kerns that she doesn't feel there is a gay problem in her town. Kerns basically tells her homosexuality is equivalent to cancer. And should be treated as such, because it's deadly and it spreads

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Fair enough, but what's the alternative Ashley? You saw the statistics, this is a real issue of saftey for them. I see this stuff all the time in my personal life experience as well.

I totally understand. It's not that it shouldn't be discussed in school. My problem lies with using children as protesters. That seems pretty messed up. There was a thread on here recently about a school using students at pro life rallies. Even though I am rabidly pro life, I have a hard time seeing kids used in protests.

Reminds me of a South Park episode where politicians kept using Stan, Cartman, Kenny, and Kyle as poster children for their issues.

Originally posted by AshleyD

I totally understand. It's not that it shouldn't be discussed in school. My problem lies with using children as protesters.

But...

Are the students really being used as protesters? These statistics were not about their parents or their teachers or that one drag queen from Faces, it was about them, the students, specifically and directly.

I have a problem with people using these children as a target for their persecution. Regardless of wether it's fueld by religious belief or just someones worldview. Gay, Bi, and or transgender students should be able to goto school and learn in a safe and productive environment. Clearly that is not the case, hence this NDOS, and hence this little boy getting murdered.

So are you okay with that? Again, what's the alternative?

That seems pretty messed up.

Hmm as messed up as these students feeling they have to ditch school because they might be tormented, beat up, and maybe even shot and killed?

There was a thread on here recently about a school using students at pro life rallies. Even though I am rabidly pro life, I have a hard time seeing kids used in protests.

There is an important distinction between these two cases though. One is being affected directly and the other is not. Thus, it is justified to say one group is being used as poster kids and the other is not.

**On a side note: that's awesome that you watch South Park

[edit on 123131p://21u21 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Just a quick note here. I'm talking about school sponsored protests but you're making it sound like I'm OK with hearing about homosexual children getting beaten up, teased, and even killed at school. I think anyone with a heart can see this is dreadful. That is why I am taking that out of the equation for now. No reason to debate something when the debate team is all on one side.

Look at the Snopes article. They're using the children in the protest. Then there is another group using children for a counter protest. It's madness using children in protests.

Let's go back to the slavery and Holocaust analogy someone else brought up. You and I can also agree that both things were heart wrenching. They are taught in school today. So far so good. But I might have some issues with my child's school organizing a protest involving, let's say, a Holocaust denial group or the KKK.

There's nothing wrong with teaching children not to hate. Like you said, some kids are now scared to go to school. But school sponsored and media attention receiving protests is something I'm having a hard time dealing with. Remember, there is a counter protest as well. I have the same problem with that one, too. It looks like children are being used as pawns. This is never a good thing.

[edit on 3/21/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD

Just a quick note here. I'm talking about school sponsored protests

Me too! Were are both talking about this NDOS event and the students who are 'voluntarily' participating in it, to promote tolerance and peace in light of the discrimination and violence that is being brought against them. Right?

but you're making it sound like I'm enjoying hearing about homosexual children get beaten up, teased, and even killed at school.

Wow if I came off that way then I am sorry, that was not my intention nor the way I felt you thought on the matter. Looking over my posts I am not sure what I said to make you feel that way?

I think anyone with a heart can see this is dreadful.

I would hope for as much. But then again, I would also hope people wouldn't think the things that lead to this persecution to begin with... such as viewing homosexuality as immoral and sinful. That is the root of this "dreadfullness". Perhaps you yourself, your friends, your specific Church, wouldn't take it to this extreme, but still, it's that kind of mentality that gives birth to this kind of violence...

And you avoided addressing my question on 'the severity of homosexuality as a sin' in your eyes. It's perfectly fine if you don't want to reveal the extent of your view, but still, you're dodging this it seems.

That is why I am taking that out of the equation for now. No reason to debate something when the debate team is all on one side.

Not sure what you mean here?

They're using the children in the protest. Then there is another group using children for a counter protest. It's madness using children in protests.

You're still using the operative term "used" in a peculiar way. These statistics were about them directly. What is happening is specifically about things that are affecting the students lives' directly.

Also, do you honestly think High School students would have qualms with rebeling against being used as 'poster children'? They are voluntaring.

Let's go back to the slavery and Holocaust analogy someone else brought up. You and I can also agree that both things were heart wrenching.

Definetly!

But do we both see that both these things had religious underpinnings? In both those instances, people used The Bible, quoted passages, as a justification for their 'movement'.

Let's pretend that wasn't the case. Lets set that aside. It was some very hurtful discrimination to say the least.. heart wrenching as you said would be better wording. The same kind of heart wrenching actions that was used against 'blacks' and 'jews' is being used against homosexuals. New color, same history.

They are taught in school today. So far so good. But I might have some issues with my child's school organizing a protest involving, let's say, a Holocaust denial group or the KKK.

Can you elaborate on that idea, I think I know what you meant but I am doubting myself enough to ask hehe.

This "protest", which I feel is a rather strong word considering how they are actually planning on conducting themselves heh, is about students who are just trying to voice some tolerance on the fact that other students, nation-wide, are infringing on their safety and their liberty. If the same thing was happening against "jews" and "blacks" in our modern days, I would hope for a similar "protest".

There's nothing wrong with teaching children not to hate.

But is there something wrong with teaching children to hate?

The Church (Christian orthodoxy) and its interpretation of the Bible, (regardless of wether it's the 'true' interpretation or not) teaches people to hate against gays, bisexuals and transgenders. That's what it means to have an absolute worldview that gays are immoral and living in sin. I am sorry if you don't see that, but it is so, just as it was so with the Holocaust and Slavery.

Like you said, some kids are now scared to go to school.

I think the word 'some' is taking this situation rather lightly when taking into account the statistics you posted.

But school sponsored and media attention receiving protests is something I'm having a hard time dealing with.

This is a gray area. Who's to say this wasn't school sponsored and attention grabbing purely because it is nation-wide and so prevelant? I mean, this article mentions a young boy being murdered based on his sexual orientation. Do you not think that diserves attention from the school and media?

Remember, there is a counter protest as well. I have the same problem with that one, too. It looks like children are being used as pawns. This is never a good thing.

I so very much agree with you Ashley. I completely agree with your sentiments on children being used as 'poster kids' for someone elses agenda. I simply don't see that being the case here though, since the statistics, the whole reason behind the NDOS, is based on the fact that these things are directly affecting these students.

reply to post by barmshadow84



You bigots can keep "jesus land" as far as I'm concerned. Who would want to live in the midwest anyway?

Nothing to do but get your sister pregnant.

reply to post by AshleyD


Since both protests are voluntary, how are they being used? I'm currious.

If the school says "no talking today because of blah, blah, blah" then I'd agree with you. But, this is voluntary.

See griff, ya crossed the line. Nothing you just said was necessary at all. You didn't have to attack people like that. Insinuating midwesterners are incestuous. Calling people bigots is just plain STUPID on your part.

reply to post by Christian Voice


But, it's ok to call me and my kind, sinfull, aborations, worse than terrorists etc.?

Double standard maybe.

Too bad I hurt your feelings. maybe you people should think about that when you hurt other's feelings?





[edit on 3/21/2008 by Griff]

Originally posted by Christian Voice
Calling people bigots is just plain STUPID on your part.

Really?

big·ot /ˈbɪgət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[big-uht] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

dictionary.reference.com...

Does that NOT describe you and your ilk?

[edit on 3/21/2008 by Griff]

[edit on 3/21/2008 by Griff]

But, it's ok to call me and my kind, sinfull, aborations, worse than terrorists etc.?

But you are sinful. What's wrong with calling someone sinful? I am very sinful. I can admit it. Everyone is sinful. The only sinless being ever was Jesus. As for the other comments, the Bible says homosexuality is an abomination. I have merely been stating the Bible's stance on the subject. If you don't believe in the Bible, that's your choice, but in a nation that is primarily Christian, some of these things you just have to get used to. Why does the world have to accept your sinful lifestyle. Can't you just accept it and move on? Are you doing any of this to please the world?
Again I'll state this,
This is a thread about this issue. That's why I'm stating anything at all. I don't just walk up to homosexuals on the street and go off. My beliefs are my beliefs and yours are yours. I am married to a woman 15 years younger than me. I would bet we get more stares and comments than most homosexuals. She is 20 and I am 35. Neither of us care what other people think. She was 19 when we met and we just got married. We had sex outside of marriage. We sinned horribly. We made our peace with God and got married. We are not sinning in that aspect anymore. We do get stares though. Who cares?
Point is that homosexuals think there is nothing wrong with what they do. Christians and many others think they are wrong. We gave our opinion here as did the other side. What difference did any of it make?

Originally posted by Christian Voice
Why does the world have to accept your sinful lifestyle.

Why does the world have to accept your hatefilled Christian lifestyle?

Can't you just accept it and move on?

Same can be said of you.

Point is that homosexuals think there is nothing wrong with what they do. Christians and many others think they are wrong. We gave our opinion here as did the other side. What difference did any of it make?

Point is Christians think there is nothing wrong with filling the world with hate.

What do you think hurts society more? Gays who just want to be left alone. Or Christians spewing hate?

What do you think hurts society more? Gays who just want to be left alone. Or Christians spewing hate?

That's the thing, gays don't want to be left alone. Every year in Memphis TN homosexuals have a gay pride parade. They have parades in tons of other cities as well. Always pissing and moaning to the government for benefits and rights for being homosexual. Don't tell me that crap that homosexuals just want to be left alone.
Again, and get this through your thick narrow minded skull....... I don't hate anyone. Never said I did, never portrayed I did. I can hate your sin, but Love you as a person. So stop saying I spread hatred. If I hated you I'd say " Homosexual?" take a bullet.
I don't hate anyone so knock it off.

I seldom ever bother to post on threads like this one as the tack behind the debates become so predictable.

With this in mind I am going to take a tack I do not see very often on threads like this or see at all.

I fault many of my Christian bretheren for a certain ignorance concerning the work and the pattern in which it is operating.

I also falut the Gay and Gay tolerant community for using or attempting a "Default Setting" to stiffle debate or attempt to neuter others of dissenting opinion/views. This is extremely predictable by the use of the word "Hate." It is a standard guilt technique and shows intolerance by these peoples while expecting the same from others.

THe facts and history of which I know and understand is that it is a very strange thing or for a human being to define who and what they are by thier sexuality...ie..their sexual orientation.

The very sad truth of this matter is that my Christian bretheren seem to miss or totally ignore this concept.

People are so much more than mere sexuality ..yet no one seems wont to understand or explain this point of view.

Few seem wont or able to express this concept in words..even the Christiains on here.

What is worse ..so few seem to understand or comprehend the strangeness of this kind of behavior.
That a person or persons...the very epitome of their greatness and claim to fame is their sexual orientation.
Now this is very strange behavior...yet so few seem to grasp it for what it actually is.
People are so much more than mere sexuality....how can so many people not understand that to do so... to declare who and what someone is by their sexual orientation so is not strange behavior??? It is in fact very strange behavior...hetero and homosexual.
This is someones or some groups single claim to fame...?? And most of you dont find this strange conduct??

The historical truth is that people are defined by their lneage, thier occupations, or some great work they have done and left to posterity.
Never by their sexuality or sexual orientation. Never!!!

This is why for this behavior to be shoved down peoples throats by default is strange. To make people tolerant of it under such coercion and seduction is offensive once you understand and know this history.

Note here...that I am not saying that people do not have sexuality..I am saying that they do not define who and what they are by thier sexuality.
To do so is extermely ignorant. It is the height of human self glorification.
What I am defining here applies to both homosexuals and heterosexuals.
You do not define or glorify yourself by your sexual orientation for people are so much more than sexuality. Yet ironically this tack ..or lack of this tack is the very best our highly educated social structure can do.
We are cultivating ourselves in ignorance across the board and declaring this ignorance as excellence...even tolerance. It is nonsense.

Thinking people do not find this behavior strange??? That someone would want to define themselves by thier sexual orientation. I do ..I find it strange behavior ..both homo and heterosexual.

Yet ironically many of us with some form of education seem to miss out entirely on this concept or line of thinking in lieu of our "emotions." This ignorance cannot be accidental. It must be deliberately cultivated. People left to their own thinking and devices cannot be this naturally dumb.
Our media , our educational systems and our leaders in politics financing public education seem to all miss out on this concept. Or is the avoidance of this concept ....deliberate ...in order to cultivate a new generation of predictable, controllable ,malliable. emotionally distraught voters??

This, unknown, to many of my Christian Bretheren, is what so many of them seem to fail in understanding.
This is also what gives offenses to the world and the world system.
That Christians define themselves by the God who lives in them....not thier sexuality.
Our God does not want us to define ourselves by our sexual orientatiion..but by His Word on our lips and in our hearts.
We are not to do as the world around us would have us do. We are not to carry the fingerprint of the world on our lips and in our hearts..but instead we carry His Word and Way.
We do not define ourselves by our sexuality. We choose to seperate ourselves from those who do.
This is what gives offense to the world. We are taught that this is so and to expect no better from the world.

A proper human being does not define who they are by thier sexuality..homo or hetero. People are so much more than mere sexuality.
Yet ironically in many of these posts seem to miss out on this concept or attempt to totally avoid it....deliberately.

Some food for thought which I dont see brought up on this thread.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Christian Voice
Every year in Memphis TN homosexuals have a gay pride parade. They have parades in tons of other cities as well. Always pissing and moaning to the government for benefits and rights for being homosexual. Don't tell me that crap that homosexuals just want to be left alone.

No. We are not asking for benefits and rights for being homosexual. We are asking for benefits and rights for being HUMAN. Like you automatically get just because you were lucky enough to be born hetero.

And don't give me the crap about the parades. There are plenty of other pride parades.

Jewish pride. Irish pride (St. Patrick's day). Turkish pride. Etc.

Chinese New Year

Presidents Day Parade

St Patrick's Day Parade

Brooklyn Irish American Parade

The Greek Independence Day Parade

Easter Parade,

Cuban Day Parade

Brooklyn Bridge Day Parade.

Turkish-American Parade

Salute to Israel Parade

The Puerto Rican Day Parade

The Festival of St. Anthony Procession

Brooklyn Pride Parade and Festival

Bronx Dominican Parade

India Day Parade

Pakistani-American Independence Day Parade

West Indian American Day Carnival Parade

Brazilian Festival

The Steuben Day Parade

African-American Day Parade

Pulaski Day Parade

Desfile de la Hispanidad / Hispanic Day Parade

www.carnaval.com...

Just a few parades in NYC.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Wow if I came off that way then I am sorry, that was not my intention nor the way I felt you thought on the matter. Looking over my posts I am not sure what I said to make you feel that way?

No worries. If you didn't mean it that way I'll accept that. Sometimes intentions don't get across well on the Internet. This is what you said that made me think it. I'll put it in 'ex tags' so it won't be confusing with the quote feature:

I have a problem with people using these children as a target for their persecution. Regardless of wether it's fueld by religious belief or just someones worldview. Gay, Bi, and or transgender students should be able to goto school and learn in a safe and productive environment. Clearly that is not the case, hence this NDOS, and hence this little boy getting murdered.

So are you okay with that?

I think you know me better than that so if that isn't what you meant, then I'll believe you. It is a major pet peeve of mine when someone tells me what they 'think' I meant and don't listen to me when I clarify but instead they keep saying, 'No! You meant this!' So, the above is what made me think you were saying that. But it's cleared up now.

And you avoided addressing my question on 'the severity of homosexuality as a sin' in your eyes. It's perfectly fine if you don't want to reveal the extent of your view, but still, you're dodging this it seems.

It's not that I avoided it. It's that I was surprised you had asked me this again because I've already explained my views on this thread to you and others before. No. I don't think anyone goes to Hell just for being gay. Again, we all sin and have all fallen short.

Not sure what you mean here?

Going back to when I thought you were implying I thought mistreating homosexual or transgendered students was acceptable. It meant we don't need to debate that because you and I can both agree that is bogus. But the protest issue is where we differ.

Also, do you honestly think High School students would have qualms with rebeling against being used as 'poster children'? They are voluntaring.

Wow. I feel like a bumbling moron at the moment. You're right. I just now noticed it was High Schools and Colleges! All this time I've been thinking it was something like grade school children. I guess it would pay to read the articles I post. I have to admit, that does change some things.

But do we both see that both these things had religious underpinnings? In both those instances, people used The Bible, quoted passages, as a justification for their 'movement'.

Ok, this is going down a bunny trail but here it goes. How was the Bible used to support the Holocaust? Hitler had some strange, strange views and even 'posed' as a Christian like many leaders do when they need an 'in' with a Christian country like Germany was. But I'm not sure how the Bible could have been used to justify this. Then of course, there is the debate as to whether or not regular German citizens even knew what was really going on in order for things to even be justified to them. I think they were (maybe not the full extent but they obviously knew of the deportations and segregation).

I think the word 'some' is taking this situation rather lightly when taking into account the statistics you posted.

I didn't see any statistics. Can you link me to them? I'm sure they're there- I'm just not seeing them.

This is a gray area. Who's to say this wasn't school sponsored and attention grabbing purely because it is nation-wide and so prevelant? I mean, this article mentions a young boy being murdered based on his sexual orientation. Do you not think that diserves attention from the school and media?

I think it deserves attention and to be addressed- yes. In the manner of protesting on school times is where I'm a bit confused but no, I do not think it should be swept under the rug.

I so very much agree with you Ashley. I completely agree with your sentiments on children being used as 'poster kids' for someone elses agenda. I simply don't see that being the case here though, since the statistics, the whole reason behind the NDOS, is based on the fact that these things are directly affecting these students.

Let me ask you this- what do you think of the counter-protest?

[edit on 3/21/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by orangetom1999 A proper human being does not define who they are by thier sexuality..homo or hetero. People are so much more than mere sexuality.
Yet ironically in many of these posts seem to miss out on this concept or attempt to totally avoid it....deliberately.
Some food for thought which I dont see brought up on this thread.
Thanks,
Orangetom

Though I have chosen not to continue to debate this thread, I am following it with interest, and I'd be inclined to say that it is in the vilification of one aspect of an individual's being, that a person then becomes defined as such. And again, though I'm not trying to appropriate voice, to take back that insult takes some of the hurt out of it...which is why folks identify themselves as gay and queer...and in a different context, 'n-word'.

Not cuz they like the ring of it. (in previewing this post, I see that n-word was inserted automatically...not the word I chose to use. Donno if that makes my point or not)

Now, I have been following an excellent blog of late...waiterrant.net...and in one of his archived bits he recounted a speech that his godfather...a priest...made at an anti-abortion rally. I swear I'm not trying to open that debate, but upon reading it I was struck by how relevent his comments would be to this thread. Again...this is through my eyes, and I consider myself to be liberal and agnostic.

I submit it in the interests of illuminating my attitude towards religion and society. And I think that is what this thread ultimately speaks to.

waiterrant.net...
scroll down the page to "All Hallows Eve"(Tuesday, November 1st, 2005)

And a Happy Easter to all...

Gays are not asking for any special treatment. What they are asking for is to have the same legal rights afforded to them that everyone else has. They are not protected from being fired from their jobs due to their sexual orientation; they cannot legally marry; they have to file separate income taxes, which means they don't get the deductions that married people do, which can and does mean a huge difference on their income tax, as single people pay alot more proportionally than do married couples, especially with children; and they aren't allowed to visit their partners (some of them with long-standing partnerships) when they are sick in the hospital, as they aren't "family members". There are many, many stories of men with AIDS who's partners of many years weren't allowed in the hospital room to visit with them. There are literally hundreds of other laws that don't protect them or they give the same rights to heteros but not gays. My friend did research and found out that there are something like over 800 laws that don't include gays and lesbians.
The racists said interracial marriage was a sin, too, and it used to be legal. It wasn't until several decades ago that it became legal for a black person and a white person to marry. The gays are being treated the exact same way. I don't care if you think their lifestyle is sinful; they're still human beings and deserve to have the same rights and privileges as everyone else. I know many, many gays and lesbians who have been together for 20 years or more and are deeply committed to each other. But they literally are second class citizens because of our laws. All of this happens, while the state is the one who determines who can marry who - this is totally wrong IMHO, people should be able to marry whoever they choose. Who is the state to decide such a major decision for individuals? If your church doesn'st agaree with it, then don't have gay marriages in your church. But why do you have to crusade and be so full of fear, that you want gays to keep quiet and not speak up for their rights? IT's between 2 consenting adults and no one is being hurt.
Why should they be kept out of City Council? They have a right to be represented, too. Even if they are a majority of the city council, what's wrong with that? Ever stop to think that maybe it's representative of how many gays there are in that area? And, who says City Councils should have a majority of hetros anyway? Or blacks, whites, etc.? If it represents the population, then that's the way it should be.

Originally posted by forestlady
I don't care if you think their lifestyle is sinful; they're still human beings and deserve to have the same rights and privileges as everyone else.

Exactly.

But they literally are second class citizens because of our laws.

Actually, we are third class citizens when you think about it. Even the Menendez brothers (who murdered their own parents in cold blood) where allowed to marry while in jail. Obviously to their penpal girlfriends, not each other.

In 1989, Beverly Hills brothers LYLE and ERIK MENENDEZ killed their parents in a double-homicide that shocked the nation. Two sensational trials later, the brothers were convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole.


Separated from his brother and serving his time at Pleasant Valley State Prison in California, Erik says his wife TAMMI's love has helped him through his darkest days. Tammi, who first corresponded with Erik while he was on trial and later married him in prison, details their unlikely love affair in her new book, They Said We'd Never Make It -- including the sadness that comes with having a spouse in prison.

Tell me that doesn't smack all gay people in the face.

Peace out.