No Health Insurance? Face Fines!

reply to post by Tinhatman


I can really only tell you what is a reality in my world as far as the NHS is concerned. I NEVER wait to see my doctor, I've never been denied any medicines or treatments. I live in the heavily populated SouthEastof England and I've nothing but good things to say about the NHS - The English, however compain about it constantly!

You're right about basic care - the problem in the US is that a corporation decides what is basic, and not the doctor in most cases.

I remember one year my mom was very ill, my dad had just started a new job and wasn't eligible for insurence yet, my parents the hard working people they were, just kept on going, my mom sick the whole time. Finally my dads insurence kicks in and guess what?

My mom has TB which has been left untreated for many weeks. The insurence company wouldn't pay saying it was pre-exsisiting. It took my dad years to pay that off. That just wouldn't happen in the UK or Switzerland.

When I first got ot Europe, I was sooo unhappy. I missed the US sooo much. Those first couple of years were very difficult for me. Now that I have been here for awhile I can see that it isn't perfect here, but it is a hell of a lot better then the US.

reply to post by FreeThinkerIdealist

Who pays $1,000 per person per month for insurance may I ask?

My wife and I pay health insurance premiums of over $1,000 per month. You obviously have health insurance that is HEAVILY subsidized by your employer.
That is becoming rarer and rarer.

I think you need to use realistic figures before making statements like that. $1000 a month per person :roflmao:

You show your lack of any understanding of reality.

The monthly premium for family coverage in Cincinnati, even with high deductibles, is $1,300, which amounts to more than half of the average office worker's monthly pay before taxes, said Eby.

Here is the link:
www.aafp.org...

Next time, DO SOME RESEARCH before your make statements that show complete lack of understanding in the real world.

Why don't they just make do it yourself 'cyanara' kits. Healthcare has gone nuts in costs. Canadiens can get healthcare. Just takes a while. It is a very prosperous industry. Money to heal. Who heals the healers.

reply to post by Tinhatman

Crap is when you can't afford to go see a Doctor in the US because the Insurance companies in Collusion with a Fascist Government have made healthcare SOOOO expensive that you either participate in managed care that benefits the wealthy politicians and insurance companies OR you die of a simple tooth infection.

You are absolutely correct. One of the problems is that people that have health insurance thru their employers have no understanding of what it costs for those who don't have employer-supplemented insurance. The poster above thinks that you can get health insurance for $40.00 a month, because she worked at a place where that is all she paid. Then she had the audacity to tell me to get realistic with my numbers. If everyone was like you and I and understood what health care does cost, maybe they would get up in arms also.
It won't be long, though, because as the following link shows, each year, fewer and fewer employers are provided health coverage as a benefit:

www.reason.com...

Between 2000 and 2007, the percentage of firms offering health insurance benefits fell from 69 percent to 60 percent. The percentage of people under age 65 with employer provided insurance dropped by 68 to 63 percent. In absolute numbers, those covered by job-based insurance fell from 179.4 million to 177.2 million.

Employers are jettisoning health insurance because costs are out of control. Since 2001, premiums for family coverage have increased 78 percent, while wages have gone up 19 percent and inflation is up 17 percent. The consequence is that health insurance is the number one domestic policy issue in the 2008 presidential race.

Once everyone is paying $1,000 to $2,000 per month for health care, maybe then something will happen. I'm afraid, though that it won't be soon enough for my wife and I, as we are already spending 60% of our retirement income on healthcare premiums, and then we still have copays, and things that our HMO don't cover, such as some medications we take, dental care, and eye care.

Whoa, catch-up time!

FreeThinkerIdealist: You only had to pay $40 a month because your employer paid the rest. That is a benefit, designed to attract employees. Employers-` offer less pay then otherwise they would have to, because they are paying the bulk of the healthcare premium. This saves them money because they managed to get group coverage at a lower price than you could yourself. So they pocket the difference, and you think you get a deal.

Right now I pay about $100 a week for coverage with no dental. That's about average for the 8 different companies I have drove OTR for. Yet, when I leave a company and the COBRA bill comes, my premium is between $1000 and $1500 per month to continue my $100 a week coverage.

Count your blessings, for you are not among the ones who are hurting.

LLoyd45: You are correct! A tax-paid health industry would be cheaper than one based on capitalism like we have now. Insurance companies are simply middlemen who offer nothing in the healthcare arena, only in the area of convenience, yet they are one of the primary causes of high healthcare costs. But it would also be less effective than the capitalist system.

Why do you think most new medicines are developed in America? Why do affluent people from foreign countries routinely come here for treatment? It's at least in large part due to the fact that our doctors are affluent, and that affluence attracts new doctors into the profession.

My daughter has decided to become a psychiatrist. This means she will have to endure 2 years at the local community college, then two more years at a university, then 4 years of med school, then an internship, then a state test to become a psychiatrist. While she is in high school, in an attempt to jump-start that process, I am responsible for about $2500 in dual-enrollment courses. Once she graduates, the community college costs about $15000 a year. The university costs closer to $25000 a year, and that's for in-state rates. Now add in the 12 years that she will spend with no degree making almost no money due to the fact she is in school the whole time. That's a lot of expense, even after the scholarships she has got/hopefully will get!

Do you really think anyone would do this if there wasn't a serious reward at the end of that long road? No, she'd probably go into teaching (her second choice, I think).

So, sure, stop doctors from making money. You'll stop doctors from existing.

And finally, my dear ProfEmeritis: Absolutely correct! If more people saw the problem, more could be done about it. The average person does not see the high costs because they are having their premiums subsidized by an employer or the government, and they don't see the high prices because the insurance company comes to the 'rescue'. So prices continue to escalate while hospital administrators pad their pockets, staff work less so they can work more hours (more pay), and those of us who tend to rely on ourselves are the ones left in the cold. Now this one-sided greed circus has brought us to this point, where we are seriously looking at ways to destroy the healthcare industry in order to save it.

I have paid plenty of medical bills without insurance. Yet no one in the healthcare system wants me to. Why? Because I check the bills. I take exception at the $20 charge for an aspirin, or $10 for ice chips. I complain when services are double-billed. And I demand itemized statements. Anyone can do this, even with insurance. But it's inconvenient, and as a whole, we Americans are a lazy lot.

I fear that under the present mindset of society, healthcare will have to be extinguished before it again is available at an affordable price to all.

TheRedneck

I don't expect anyone to work and not be fairly compensated, but when it costs on the average $350 for an ambulance ride, $320 for an emergency room visit, and another $100+ for lab fees and x-rays, I'd say the compensation rates are excessive.

If all someone wants to be a doctor for is to get rich, they should choose another profession. They're main concern should be the health of their patient, not their portfolio. When did medicine become an early retirement plan at the public's expense?

reply to post by TheRedneck

Good evening. Great to hear your wise advice as usual.

As you said, people that have subsidized insurance have no idea what it really costs, but soon they will. Each year, more and more companies are dropping health care as a benefit, just as they dropped defined benefit retirement plans.

By the way, congratulations on your daughter and her choice. Hopefully, in about 10-12 years, she'll be able to help "poor old dad". I'm still waiting for all of our children to assume that role, but I'm afraid they're in no shape financially to do that. Anyway, her/your decision to go to a 2-year school first, it EXACTLY what students should do. She'll graduate from the four-year school with a Diploma that has that school's name, the same as the students that went there for 4 years. My youngest did that also.

Peace, my friend.

reply to post by LLoyd45

I don't expect anyone to work and not be fairly compensated, but when it costs on the average $350 for an ambulance ride, $320 for an emergency room visit, and another $100+ for lab fees and x-rays, I'd say the compensation rates are excessive.

Let me tell you. We have a very good friend that WAS a doctor for 30 years. He finally had to retire- NOT because he was rich, but because the liability insurance was so high that he couldn't afford it. He was a family doctor, and as such, he had to pay office staff, rent, etc.

One thing that many people don't understand is how the doctor is being squeezed by competition on one side, and the insurance companies on the other side. In order to keep patients, he has to accept many different insurance plans. Many are PPO's, and they dictate what a doctor can charge for each service. So on one side, the Medical Insurance companies keep his fees down, while the Liability insurance companies raise his own insurance. Of course, some of that liability cost is exacerbated by people that submit fraudulent claims. That is passed on to all of us.

It is the insurance companies that are driving the health care through the roof, NOT the doctors. Most doctors that I know DO CARE for patients. Those that don't fortunately don't last very long. Also, the ambulance, hospital costs, etc. that you mention are not determined by doctors, of course.

Originally posted by LLoyd45
I don't expect anyone to work and not be fairly compensated, but when it costs on the average $350 for an ambulance ride, $320 for an emergency room visit, and another $100+ for lab fees and x-rays, I'd say the compensation rates are excessive.

Excessive for people to afford, yes. But that is not the cost of the EMTs, doctors, nurses, or lab technicians alone.

Ambulances are self-contained hospitals on wheels. They typically contain all the equipment found in the average doctor's office and more, and it all has to operate from 12VDC and be specially designed to operate under the vibrations of high-speed travel along bumpy roads. Each one is custom-made. They respond on a moment's notice to any call, so there is extreme maintenance cost to make sure they can do that. Who do you propose pay for that?

To a large degree I agree with you on hospitals and lab fees. But in today's sue-first, ask-questions-later society, they musty maintain huge amounts of insurance against frivolous as well as legitimate lawsuits. Also, they must protect themselves by having the ability to do virtually any test known to modern medicine on every patient that could possibly be a candidate for it. Have you seen the specifications for medical equipment? Medical grade electronics are the highest grade available, even beyond military specs in many aspects. With that high specification comes great cost, and again, someone must pay the bill.

If you want to lower costs, I suggest you look for those parts of the industry that are not conducive to efficiency. Insurance companies do not heal, nor do they care for those who are sick, yet they demand a very large piece of the industry's assets. Drugs typically have side effects, and it appears to me a mathematical correlation exists between the expense of the drug, the amount it is prescribed, and the number and severity of the side effects (usually that need to be treated with another drug). And administrators, while necessary, are ultimately a necessary drain on resources that should be kept to a minimum.

If all someone wants to be a doctor for is to get rich, they should choose another profession. They're main concern should be the health of their patient, not their portfolio. When did medicine become an early retirement plan at the public's expense?

Agreed. But most people (including my daughter) don't simply become doctors to be rich. They become doctors to help others. That was not my point in the last post. My point is that it is laughable to expect anyone to undergo the process of becoming a medical professional if they are not going to receive a substantial reward for the trials they must undergo, especially in a free society where the choices are many and varied. To expect otherwise is to deny human nature. And to deny human nature is to invite failure.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
By the way, congratulations on your daughter and her choice. Hopefully, in about 10-12 years, she'll be able to help "poor old dad". I'm still waiting for all of our children to assume that role, but I'm afraid they're in no shape financially to do that. Anyway, her/your decision to go to a 2-year school first, it EXACTLY what students should do. She'll graduate from the four-year school with a Diploma that has that school's name, the same as the students that went there for 4 years. My youngest did that also.

I have forbidden her to ever try to treat me as a patient, for fear the insanity will infect her as well. As far as financially, I think I'll be OK without digging into her American Dream. I have a few theories... but that's for another (and post-invention) thread.

I see great minds think alike on the college. This way she can live at home for two more years as well. No sense keeping two homes when one will do. Oh, and the decision was unanimous between both of us. I have a smart girl, if I do say so myself.

reply to post by TheRedneck


No argument there. Please check your U2U.
Great post as usual. Most doctors go into the field because they want to help people.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus
I understand that doctors have overhead costs just like any business, that's why I advocate for a National Health Care program which would reduce the administrative costs, office overhead, and malpractice issues. That way everyone benefits (doctors, patients, taxpayers, etc.), and no one is denied medical care because they lack the ability to pay for it.

reply to post by LLoyd45


I agree with you 100% on that. My only fear is that the government seems to have a way of complicating things rather than simplifying them. Personally, I'm not sure what the best approach is, but we definitely need 100% coverage. It's shameful that a nation with so many resources can allow 47,000,000 people to be uninsured.

reply to post by TheRedneck
If your daughters goal in becoming a psychiatrist is to help people, then it is indeed a noble one. Unlike your daughter however, there are many in the profession only for the money. I was Pre-med for 3 years, and that was the number one reason most chose the profession. I knew then medicine was not the field for me. I wanted to help people, not retire early.

I became a counselor instead, and spent several years working with the mentally ill. The results weren't as obvious and the thanks were few, but it was a rewarding experience nevertheless.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


I must point out that the 47 million figure includes people who simply choose not to buy insurance, although they can afford it. If you discount them, the number drops to something like 17 million that actually want insurance but cannot afford it. I am trying to remember where I saw that statistic so I can post the source.

Insurance is a gamble in its most basic form. Some choose to gamble, others do not.

TheRedneck

reply to post by ProfEmeritus
I agree the government does have a knack for complicating matter, but overall they do okay. I pray that someday there will be a viable solution to the healthcare problem. There are so many people in need (especially the elderly and children) who due to no fault of their own must suffer.

reply to post by TheRedneck


www.nchc.org...

Here is a fairly comprehensive breakdown of the uninsured, as well as a very good statistical look at health insurance in general. The study points out that the main reason for people being uninsured is the cost being more than they can afford.

Rapidly rising health insurance premiums are the main reason cited by all small firms for not offering coverage. Health insurance premiums are rising at extraordinary rates. The average annual increase in inflation has been 2.5 percent while health insurance premiums for small firms have escalated an average of 12 percent annually.

Only seven (7) percent of the unemployed can afford to pay for COBRA health insurance - the continuation of group coverage offered by their former employers.

In 2006, 37.7 million workers were uninsured because not all businesses offer health benefits, not all workers qualify for coverage and many employees cannot afford their share of the health insurance premium even when coverage is at their fingertips.1

Another major problem is that many of those 47,000,000 are not illegible for health insurance because of pre-existing conditions.

Originally posted by LLoyd45

 

I agree the government does have a knack for complicating matter, but overall they do okay.

I must disagree with you on this point. In early 2006, my CDL was up for renewal. Although I had called and inquired about the length of time and expense of maintaining the HazMat endorsement on my CDL, apparently the rules changed before I was able to actually get into the DMV. At that time, I had two options: renew without the coveted endorsement, or go without work for three months. I no longer have HazMat, although I do qualify for it.

My daughter went three months trying to get her learners permit. Why? Because out of the 7 trips I made to the DMV, they were open on the 7th trip only. Someone had a relative that had died, and someone else had medical problems, and apparently, if either was out, the office was closed with no advance notice.

My wife is disabled and eligible for SSI. She does not draw a penny. She did, until a doctor who had never seen her turned in a bogus report and it was discontinued without us ever even knowing why until afterward.

These are only a few anecdotal instances op a systemic record by our governments, federal to local, that places red tape and knee-jerk regulations above actual service. Apparently you have not had such experiences, but I would bet good $$$ you will someday. Eventually everyone does.

I pray that someday there will be a viable solution to the healthcare problem. There are so many people in need (especially the elderly and children) who due to no fault of their own must suffer.

On this I agree with you. It is a worthwhile dream to pursue, and there are things we can do to help accomplish this. I simply do not believe placing such a huge and complex system in the hands of bureaucrats is the answer.

TheRedneck

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


A very enlightening report, although the ending statement indicates a political agenda. I nevertheless can agree with the statistical facts presented. I'll not quote it here, for space concerns, but everyone would do well to read it. the link, again, is www.nchc.org...

You know, I have been thinking about this problem in great detail while driving. 11 hours sitting behind a wheel gives one plenty of time to exercise the muscle between the ears. And I do believe I have come up with something that just might work for all... I will attempt to put it into words in a new post. Mods, please forgive me if I cross the line on amount of posting on this one. I feel it is important.

edit to say: No, I think instead I will start a new thread. I will add the link in this post via edit when it is done.

edit: here's the link: www.abovetopsecret.com...

TheRedneck




[edit on 11-3-2008 by TheRedneck]

[edit on 11-3-2008 by TheRedneck]

A lot of people go uninsured because they choose too. I myself do not participate in my companies healthcare plan because of the expense.

I do have disability, accident, emergency room, hospitalization and various other things through private health plans with AFLAC and Statefarm. Basically I am covered for just about everything except going to the doctor and feeling bad.

Most health visits in the US are crap anyway and if folks would change their diet and exercize they would not be so damned worried about healthcare. I get a physical every 3 years and I have not been to a doctor visit in 12 years. If I was paying true health insurance I would just be throwing my money away. There are alternatives. I save more than 60% of the cost I would be paying from my own pocket.

I personally believe that the entire problem with healthcare in the US is Government interference. Government interference created the Insurance issues we have, the high costs of everything, etc etc. I do not see how relying on the System that created the problem is going to solve the problem.

[edit on 11-3-2008 by Tinhatman]