Non Christians What If The Bible Is True?, page 1/

privacy

Pages: << 1 2 3 4 >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 16 times

Topic started on 7-3-2008 @ 04:52 PM by Bigwhammy

I see a lot of threads in the CIR forum that are basically Christians this! Christians that! without much of a real conspiracy angle. What's my conspiracy angle?

The greatest conspiracy of all time. : The battle for your immortal soul.

Conspiracy theory: The Bible is true but there is a force at work that blinds mens eyes from seeing it's validity.

Evidence to support Bible Accuracy: (Christians please supply your own)

Exhibit 1:

Since 1974 17,000 tablets have been unearthed from the era of the Ebla Kingdom . The Ebla Tablets were discovered in northern Syria by two professors from the University of Rome, Dr. Paolo Matthiae, an archaeologist; and Dr. Giovanni Petinato. The stone tablets refute previous criticism that the period described in the first five books of he Old testament (1400 B.C., a thousand years after the Ebla Kingdom) was a time prior to all knowledge of writing. In other words these tablets validate the Bible.

The Ebla archives refer to all five Cities of the Plain from Genesis 14 (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim and Zoar), previously thought legendary. One tablet lists the Cities in the exact same sequence as Genesis 14.

The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep”) in Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from Nuzi and Mari.

source

If there is a conspiracy for your immortal soul. (If you believe you have a soul) Then even if there just a small chance it's all true. Shouldn't you take some time to investigate?

[edit on 3/7/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:07 PM by SaadAdam

Been athiast since i was born so no turning me to religous person who worships nothing as i say that i mean nothing that can be provan is there so really religous people worship nothing. I am the best person i can be i dont need a book to tell me whats right or wrong. Its commen sense i can debate all day but i would rather not.

so my answer is i wouldent even become religous. Seeying what religous people would do of time of need of god thay will go to the strengths of evil.

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:09 PM by jmdewey60

I have a cousen who reads Ugerit. He was working for the people who dug up the texts (clay tablets) from Syria, and decyphers the writings. It does do something to substantiate the factual authenticity of the old testament.
I have a brother who studies the translations and has found a lot of insights into the Bible.
Two hundred years ago sceptics predicted that science would disprove the Bible, but the opposite came true.

[edit on 7-3-2008 by jmdewey60]

[edit on 7-3-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:10 PM by marg6043

OK, this is a forum for conspiracies in religion so I am going to look at the OP as a conspiracy of some kind.

For what I understand you are challenging none Cristian people about the veracity of the bible.

Well for what I can tell the bible as in the old testament is a written account of the history, myth and lore of the people that later became Israel.

So truly the problem here is not how true is the Bible but actually how truly divine motivate really was and how much can be use for the research of historical facts spanning more than just the middle east and surrounding areas.

Beside been a very interesting and colorful book of historical myth and lore that is all it will ever be when it comes to historical research.

But as usual for a believer that do not need to learn anything else from history, that would be enough.

Too bad I am an avid learner so the bible for me is not enough.

So may use it for research but that is it and I will not take it all as undeniable truth.

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:11 PM by ItsFrickenAndrew

My mom is a neo-pagan, and never really had a bible in the house. Being in heaven with jesus and pals, OK...........!!! woot.

[edit on 7-3-2008 by ItsFrickenAndrew]

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:12 PM by idle_rocker

Nice thread BW. Much of the bible historical references have indeed been shown to be true through archeological findings. I think some of the problem may lie in the fact that the different writers of the Bible all had different writing styles, just as all authors do today.

Some parts of the bible are allegorical and not to be taken literally. Some scholars even believe that the book of Job was written allegorically. I think it's confusing for some to understand when something should be read literally. It takes a lot of bible study and "reading the bible for all it's worth", as the Bible Answer Man says, to understand the differences.

I'll try to do some research and see what I can find also.

I_R

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:15 PM by R-evolve

if the bible is true all of it including the old testament then i would rather god smite me into oblivion right now as that is an existence i do not want to be part of. If something so great could be so vengeful then i would despair it is like a parent who physically and mentally abuses their child its worse. If its my way or the highway i'll hit the road every time

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:17 PM by AshleyD

The farther we go back the harder it is to confirm but the writings of the early church fathers (Pre-Nicaean and Pre-Constantine) are invaluable. If you sit down and read the works of Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, Hegesippus, Quadratus, Justin Martyr, and Aristides it will virtually leave no room for doubt. If you want some real eye openers, you have to read their works.

Then, contrary to all the 'The Bible has been rewritten and retranslated so many times' accusations, the Bible has remained impressively the same when you review the most original sources possible. We all know about the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Masoretic Texts, and the Septuagint to help confirm the OT but so few know about the 5,000-25,000 Greek NT texts still in existence.

Then read up on the eye witnesses verification of the NT authorships. Fascinating.

I'll add more later and do a better job later and to rebut any arguments that may surface from this comment.

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:24 PM by jmdewey60

reply to post by ItsFrickenAndrew

The brother I refered to above is a neo-pagan.
He was raised a Christian and he is the best expert on the Bible that I know.
His outlook on mythology aplies quite well to the Bible.
He understands that the writers used pre-existing myths to base their arguments on.
They used what was available at the time, that people knew well, and undertood.
They would turn the theims of the myths to make their own points and comparisens.
Jesus and his deciples did the same thing.
For example, the people asked the deciples by what authority Jesus cast out demons.
Their answer was to compair Jesus to Soloman , who acording to the myth of the day, had special magical powers.
It caused the people to take literaly the saying of Jesus that he could build the Temple in three days.
It was believed that Soloman had powers to levetate huge stones, and that was how he had built the Temple.

[edit on 7-3-2008 by jmdewey60]

[edit on 7-3-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:27 PM by marg6043

Well knowing that is not bible original text of the old testament in existence as they were never written and origina passed by oral accounts to be later written and destroyed before the official compilation still nothing more than historical accounts mix with again lore and myth.

But every ancient civilization have their own stories to tell, so no big deal.

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:29 PM by an3rkist

Archaeological evidence also supports the existence of ancient Greece, but their myths are not widely accepted. By your logic, their myths should be believed as much as those of the Bible's.

www.ancient-greece.org...

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:30 PM by idle_rocker

reply to post by jmdewey60

Yes, see, even the people of the day didn't understand that all things said and written were not literal. Jesus used a lot of parables to help people learn the deeper things of God and life. A lot of them couldn't understand the parables either.

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:34 PM by Bigwhammy

I know one of the criticisms we hear all the time is how the Bible has been changed so much over time. But no one ever backs it up. The scriptures have survived remarkably intact. Enter my exhibit two.

Speaking of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Texts...

Exhibit 2:

The Great Isaiah Scroll has been carbon dated to a range of 335 BC-107 BC.. It is nearly identical to the text we have today. So what's all this editing? Sure there have translation issues but it is remarkably intact.

It contains prophecies about Yeshua (Jesus) that came true centuries later. Verifying the supernatural foreknowledge of the future and that Yeshua was the messiah.

Ok two versions at least 1000 years apart. Prophecy of the coming Messiah, Yeshua

Below is the King James Version of Isaiah 53:1-3.

[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Below is the same passage from the Great Isaiah Scroll.

[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor he hath comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire ourselves.
[3] He is despised and rejected of men and man of sorrows, and he knows grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; and despised him, and we esteemed him not.

Isaiah Scroll and the Masoretic Text

Now how severe are those differences? For 1000s of years and translations?
Still predicting the life of Christ clearly millennia before his birth.

[edit on 3/7/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:41 PM by Bigwhammy

reply to post by an3rkist

I don't discount the Greek mythology. It is mentioned in Genesis 6

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

The hybrid offspring of the fallen angels ( "sons of god" in Hebrew means angels) and human women were the Nephilim. I believe that's the origins of your myths...

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:42 PM by 168.56.255.255

Well as the saying goes,

If Christians are wrong, we have nothing to loose.

If Christians are right, we have everything to loose.

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:45 PM by medjhiesco

When was the last time you heard anyone argue seriously about anything written more than a couple hundred years ago as being definitive? We can't even get a straight answer on things that happened in my lifetime (Who killed JFK is a great example). In spite of the ancient texts that have been uncovered in the past 60 years, we still don't (and can't truly) know what happened 2,000 years ago. We can find all sorts of evidence that may indicate this or that but we can't know.

When are we going to stop ignoring what we can know, today and quit letting old grudges and prejudices cloud our vision? There isn't a single living soul on this planet who is essentially different from any other. We are all born, live our lives with similar needs and dreams and we all die. Doesn't matter what we might believe in along the way, not when we pass the final test.
any one or group can claim different knowledge but it is based on something other than reality. Faith is a wonderful thing but no one holds the patent on it.

Its all about fear. No one knows what is next and it scares us silly.

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:47 PM by marg6043

reply to post by Bigwhammy

The messiah was prophesied by the people that were expecting him, this is the truth for the chosen people been oppressed at the time, that is how the executed messiah liberator figure came to be.

But while the people of Israel didn't took Jesus as their messiah there came Christianity later on to make the match.

This is no about what is true of not, is all about the truth of how much lore and myth is mixed with historical accounts.

[edit on 7-3-2008 by marg6043]

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:47 PM by an3rkist

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I don't discount the Greek mythology. It is mentioned in Genesis 6...

...The hybrid offspring of the fallen angels ( "sons of god" in Hebrew means angels) and human women were the Nephilim. I believe that's the origins of your myths...

What makes you think that your beliefs are not the off-shoot of other myths, then? You cannot lay claim to the originality of all myths, and say that yours is the end all be all, without admitting that yours might not be.

And anyway, I only used the Greeks as an example off the top of my head. Would you attribute all myths from civilizations which have archaeological evidence to support their existence to your own supreme "myths"?

And lastly, that's not even the point. The point is that proving to us that civilizations which are mentioned in the Bible existed lends little to no credence whatsoever in the mystical/mythical aspects of your scripture.

[edit on 7/3/08 by an3rkist]

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:49 PM by psychedeliack

reply to post by SaadAdam

woah there, I dont think you even understand how correct you are.
Nothingness, man, there really is something to all that nothing.

check out eastern beliefs(I say beliefs because they are not religions)about how we ALL worship nothingness and think it to be something.

You see, since that is true, what you believe in or should I say, what ever labels and intentions your will and desire creates within your mind and accept as true, become exactly that.
But with rationality we can always debunk anything in written word, so this nothingness become much more powerful and important than just plain old nothingness.
You see, when you enter the nothingness with conditioning, you always see things you are familiar with, still holding onto labels and conditioning, but imagine if you sat in that nothingness for prolonged periods of time to where that nothingness became your conditioning, just imagine how much information you could absorb without the limitations of words and numbers.

But to the OP, what if?

what if any bit of existence was real or true? what would you do then? The bible is about as real and true as any of this holographic state of illusion. God is the only non illusory factor there is, though we paint it to be so many different things less than what it truly is.
obviously you noticed this as well. cool post. The irony in the Bible gets me every time, just how Jesus speaks to the people, no, youre not listening close enough he always says. And plus all the many examples that make Jesus out to be more of a Monk than anything else.
People Wearing WWJD bracelets with un needed money in their pockets?
! HYPOCRITES! I hope to god Jesus returns, man will a lot of people be in for a surprise! Especially me! (Ill rejoice so hard ill disappear)
I mean, I could be wrong, maybe it is all about money, and Jesus was just supposed to help me deal with that, but Ive given Caesar what is his, and if I'm going to give god what is gods, I better strip down to the things I need and not want "I shall not want".
besides, you cant take anything but your soul to forever land so why is it so hard for us to not give into the devils vanity?
if this lifetime is but a speck in our existence, you would think we would ALL be walking around preaching and being a charitable monk like Jesus, I mean, after all, WWJD?
quit your pointless jobs and praise god! put your lives in the hands of God for CHRISTS sake! dont you trust your faith? Do we want people to understand or not? We need to live by example if we are going to call ourselves christians.
but then again, the term christian is like the term shoe where as religion is like the term clothes

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 05:53 PM by AshleyD