It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Is life a dream?

page: 1
15
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 04:02 PM
link   
It's commonly accepted that consciousness is a byproduct of the brain, which itself is a byproduct of the environment. You keep drilling down and you find molecules, atoms, etc. which make up the entire known universe. Machines built on machines is what we are. Free will is an illusion. Or so they say...

But what if it's the other way around? What if the external world which we perceive is actually a byproduct of consciousness? That would make life essentially a dream. Free will then becomes something else entirely. We're not just making decisions that come to us out of the blue, but actively manifesting the reality around us, perhaps choosing our reality among an infinite number of possibilities limited only by our collective imagination. An imagination which continues to expand through experience.

But what of all that which came before us? Here's a little tidbit regarding quantum physics and time via Amit Goswami:

An observer's looking is essential in order to manifest possibility into actuality, and so only when the observer looks, only then does the entire thing become manifest—including time. So all of past time, in that respect, becomes manifest right at that moment when the first sentient being looks.
source


Reminds me of those dreams where I'm someone else, somewhere else, and I have an entire life of memories and history of that particular life and world in which I live. Was all that manifest in the few minutes while I was dreaming? And is this life any different? It also puts a wild spin on reincarnation when ya think about it.

Here's an example: Imagine you dig up an artifact. As it's studied, it's determined that it was from an ancient previously unknown race that inhabited earth. What you don't know, is that the entire backstory for that race is created on the fly. By discovering the past, you're creating it. And so the information contained on the artifact is dependent on the observer... which isn't a single person mind you but all attached to the experience! It's hard to explain, but just imagine life is a dream for a moment and it starts to make more sense.

I also thought this quote from Michael Talbot (of holographic universe fame) is relevant to this discussion:

For if the concreteness of the world is but a secondary reality and what is "there" is actually a holographic blur of frequencies, and if the brain is also a hologram and only selects some of the frequencies out of this blur and mathematically transforms them into sensory perceptions, what becomes of objective reality? Put quite simply, it ceases to exist. As the religions of the East have long upheld, the material world is Maya, an illusion, and although we may think we are physical beings moving through a physical world, this too is an illusion.

We are really "receivers" floating through a kaleidoscopic sea of frequency, and what we extract from this sea and transmogrify into physical reality is but one channel from many extracted out of the superhologram.
source


There are a lot of possibilities out there and unanswered questions.
Are answers are out there? Nahh... the answers are within. For if consciousness is the basis of reality, then that means consciousness creates reality, rather than being created from it.

Discuss!




posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 04:14 PM
link   
The trick I suppose is that while consciousness may create reality, that means it is also creating other consciousnesses, and all of these overlap to create a bigger, more stable reality than can be created by only one consciousness.

You create reality, but so does every blade of grass and bacteria and other person and dog and everything that lives, maybe even life on other planets or in other galaxies, if they exist.

So you can die, and although reality will vanish for you it will still continue for them. That's why reality seems so consistent.



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 11:58 PM
link   
That would mean that dreams remain in existence as well. We do often revisit and continue dreams though.

Layers upon layers of consciousness... like an onion. With dream theory, anything imaginable is possible.



posted on Mar, 8 2008 @ 02:24 AM
link   
Have you seen the movie Waking Life? It's a movie about a guy who enters a world where he is unable to distinguish whether he is "awake" or dreaming. It's more of a documentary, with interviews and what-not, than anything else...definitely one of the best films I've ever watched. Below is a Wikipedia link:

en.wikipedia.org...

From the movie:

“They say that dreams are only real as long as they last. Couldn’t you say the same thing about life?”

Another movie to watch, while a lot of it is "pseudoscience" (whatever that truly pans out to mean), is What The Bleep Do We Know, which deals with the subjective nature of truth and reality. It posits a sort of quantum reality in where atoms only form into what they appear to be at the point of observation.

I was a fan of the latter movie for a while, but as time went by I found it to be a bit too commercial for my liking.



Personally, I do believe that the perceived immaterial nature of a dream is, by nature, a complete parallel to the perceived explicit nature of reality. Furthermore, reality, as we know it, is a malleable construct which has not only the capacity, but readiness to be molded to one's will, given the proper state of mind.

We all do this on a daily basis. We each are co-creators in an ever-changing construct, whether or not we realize (or wish to realize) this important fact. I believe that science is beginning to grasp this idea, one with which we have been in some capacity familiar for a long time, in quantum physics.

A good read on quantum physics, subjectivity, and observation: www.dhushara.com...

Good thread


[edit on 8-3-2008 by iceofspades]

[edit on 8-3-2008 by iceofspades]



posted on Mar, 12 2008 @ 11:44 PM
link   

Originally posted by Kruel
It's commonly accepted that consciousness is a byproduct of the brain. [However] What if the external world which we perceive is actually a by product of consciousness?


This is a great thread Kruel, and I really like your reference links! I can't say you are definitely wrong, or cite any good references to back up my argument -- but I assert as follows: you are not living in a dream. Because I am experiencing what you are.

Now, I know I can't prove to you that I exist. Truly, I can't prove that I didn't flicker into creation two seconds ago, with this post in progress, and all my memories intact. I can't prove I won't disappear from existence before the post is finished. [See edit, below.]

We have to operate as if there are hard constraints to our lives. Otherwise, we might get ourselves in a painful situation. (And pain is something that is very difficult to cancel out using only "free will".) (Of course that might just be my dream state and not yours, but I have to say it's likely both our "realities")

Another argument against this being dream state – a bit more obvious to me -- I would have willed myself to win the lottery a long time ago if I could really do that.

#

There is a lot to quantum mechanics that I am skeptical about -- not the least is the infamous "Schrödinger's Cat" thought experiment, followed closely by the “many worlds” theory. It just seems like a warped perspective. I know I am going against the flow of all science to challenge this. But I can't help thinking we are only an experimental result or two away before quantum mechanics needs major revision. Maybe Cern's “Large Hadron Collider” (discussed at length on ATS, right here for example) will produce some results that clarify all of these things.

#

To summarize: I don’t think we are in a dream state. I think there is actually physical existence – and we have more of it still to discover before or existence makes complete sense. That undiscovered physical law, whatever it may be, will probably be A WHOLE LOT STRANGER than what you are proposing here. Just a guess.

This is truly a great topic, Kruel Thanks for starting this thread. Starred and flagged! I would be interested in anyone’s further comments.


Edit: As per my hypothesis above, I'm still here. Uhhh. Proves nothing, I know. Perhaps I came into existence two seconds ago with some sort of false memory that I wrote the above?)


[edit on 12-3-2008 by Buck Division]



posted on Mar, 13 2008 @ 12:08 AM
link   
I agree, Waking Life is an awesome movie and touches on this subject.

And I also agree, that we need consciousness and observation to validate existence itself. Not sure if it creates existence... but I do believe existence is 'God' (all universe, all matter, all energy) observing itself.

Or maybe that's consciousness... consciousness is the universe observing itself, and the physical matter we observe is a manifestation. A manifestation of our consciousness? Or is it the manifestation of a consciousness on a cosmic scale (God or Brahman). If that were the case, it would be impossible for us to awake from this dream - life or death. Hence, the theory of the immortal soul.

Good thread.

[edit on 13-3-2008 by NewWorldOver]



posted on Mar, 13 2008 @ 12:41 AM
link   

Originally posted by Buck Division
Another argument against this being dream state – a bit more obvious to me -- I would have willed myself to win the lottery a long time ago if I could really do that.


The way I view it is that we are all co-creators in what we perceive as reality, which is why none of us are able to have everything we think we want. Each person has a distinct view on the possibilities, absolutes, and impossible. This creates a sort of reality-mesh, in which the reality itself depends on the infinite thoughts of billions of individuals, and also the thoughts of the billions of people who came before them.

This idea probably extends to particles of existence which are generally believed to not be sentient, such as atoms and molecules, to create an even greater base for what we perceive to be reality.

Get what I mean?



posted on Mar, 13 2008 @ 12:49 AM
link   

Originally posted by iceofspades
The way I view it is that we are all co-creators in what we perceive as reality, which is why none of us are able to have everything we think we want...This creates a sort of reality-mesh, in which the reality itself depends on the infinite thoughts of billions of individuals


That is really a good insight, Ice. It is an ingredient which makes the OP work a lot better for me. Good thinking! We are all sharing a dream together, yeah? We interact with others in this dream state....


Edit: Reality-mesh. I haven't heard that before. Go check Google for that phrase, and you won't find it used in the precise way you just coined it. I will use it tomorrow, at least once!

[edit on 13-3-2008 by Buck Division]



posted on Mar, 13 2008 @ 01:28 AM
link   
Life is the death sentence to the dreamer, thats when the dreamer knows he is aware.




posted on Mar, 13 2008 @ 02:37 PM
link   

Originally posted by Buck Division
As per my hypothesis above, I'm still here. Uhhh. Proves nothing, I know. Perhaps I came into existence two seconds ago with some sort of false memory that I wrote the above?)


Heh, well theoretically that's possible, yes.

My line of thinking is kinda like this: Consciousness spawns new consciousness, and/or attracts into your reality a "consciousness match" from the superdatabase. Once someone or something is a part of your world, it now also takes an active part in the continued evolution of "reality".

This is probably a bad example, but in the upcoming game "Spore", you create a race of creatures which is shared automatically on the net. Other people may encounter your creatures in their world based on their play style (attraction). In a sense it's like a virtual multiverse. The part I'm getting at though, is that once someone's creation enters your world, it's no longer controlled by it's creator. It now continues it's evolution on your PC with a mind of it's own, and by it's very existence (which was attracted via your play style), effects your world.

So while it may not be simply either downward or upward causation that's happening, but maybe a little of both.



posted on Mar, 13 2008 @ 10:31 PM
link   
A REAL good movie you should check out OP is "What Dreams May Come" it has Robin Williams and Cuba Gooding Jr.

I highly recommend it.
Brings forward some good philosophical points.



posted on Mar, 14 2008 @ 01:04 AM
link   
i usually don't reply to threads, i am mostly just a viewer on this site, but lately the area of quantum physics has baffled me some. the thing that got me was the two slit experiment, where electrons are shot through two slits, and are expected to show up as two lines behind the two slits. but instead show up as many more lines behind the two slits, just as a wave would do. however, when actually observed, by our consciousness, they show up as we would have expected, as two lines. so if i am correct, if not observed, all matter is just a frequency, and when observed, it is malleable. it comes to the point, where according to quantum physics, if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, then there never was a tree to fall in the first place...


[edit on 14-3-2008 by 2nd2no1]



posted on Mar, 14 2008 @ 11:24 AM
link   

Originally posted by 2nd2no1
according to quantum physics, if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, then there never was a tree to fall in the first place...


Kinda like how a video game doesn't draw things you can't see, or play sounds you can't hear, because it's not efficient and serves no purpose. However, regarding the tree example, a simulation could run in the background and the results "drawn" once you get to the location where the tree fell. Or (more likely) the simulation doesn't run until you actually get there.

And this is the kind of stuff Michiu Kaku talks about. Once you observe something, it collapses into a state, but until then it's just a waveform... it's certainty unknown until observed. So by observing, we're either manifesting what we see, or choosing what we see from a number of known possibilities. If some thing is a waveform, then doesn't that make everything a waveform? And if that's the case then how can consciousness be created from "reality", when consciousness is in fact the acting force?

When I think about all this, I see similarities with dreaming and it makes me wonder if it's all basically the same thing.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 12:33 AM
link   
i think what this means is that materialism is nothing(literally and figuratively). we are in a way worshiping false deities (i.e. tvs, laptops, cell phones). what i mean by nothing, is that they are just the easy part of our reality that we have been fortunate enough to figure out so far. the things that really matter are what we have yet to figure out



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 05:15 AM
link   
Did What The Bleep influence this thread idea? I figured as much since you've got the QM flavor and the Amit Goswami reference.

My personal belief is that we are all apart of Gods dream. Characters within a bigger dream. I think it's what the aboriginals meant when they were describing dreamtime and the 'Big Dream'.

I believe God is dreaming the Universe into existence. As such, I believe we are ultimately illusionary dream characters. Kinda like when we goto sleep, dream into being a whole new world, with many new people, and then upon awakening, we realize we were not any of those characters at all, but we were actually the dreams creator itself! See what I am getting at? I believe when God wakes up, he realizes the same


[edit on 053131p://17u34 by Lucid Lunacy]



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 05:50 AM
link   
A biological game...


Which apparently i suck at..



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 11:33 AM
link   

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Did What The Bleep influence this thread idea? I figured as much since you've got the QM flavor and the Amit Goswami reference.


Influences are all over the place. I didn't realize that Amit had anything to do with "What the Bleep", but it doesn't surprise me. Honestly I didn't get a lot out of that movie. A couple interesting things, sure... but for the subject matter I found "The Secret" to have much more substance. Though even that was lacking as far as explaining how it could all work.

Michiu Kaku was probably my biggest influence. I like the way that guy thinks. Very logical, scientific, yet thinks outside the box.


Originally posted by WraothAscendant
A REAL good movie you should check out OP is "What Dreams May Come" it has Robin Williams and Cuba Gooding Jr.

I highly recommend it.
Brings forward some good philosophical points.


Thanks for the recommendation. I watched it the other day and it was pretty good. Definitely some parallels to what I was getting at in this thread.

So the conclusion I've come to is very simple. Either the environment creates consciousness, or consciousness creates the environment. If the former is true, we're predestined biological machines with the illusion of free will and completely at the mercy of the universe. If the latter is true, we're creating an illusionary reality much like a dream in order to experience new things.

Much like particles are split and combined to create new particles, thoughts and concepts work the same. We can't imagine anything outside of our known perceptions. Ever notice that mythical figures are always a mutation or combination of animals/humans? We can't imagine anything completely new. So we must constantly combine currently known concepts to create new ones. Hence the need for continued experience.

For instance, aliens as a concept could not exist without first understanding that the planet is round, orbits a sun, and that there are many other solar systems like ours out there. Our perception is ready for contact. Who knows what else lies around us, yet is unable to be experienced because our perceptions are not yet open to it?



posted on Mar, 17 2008 @ 03:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by Kruel

Influences are all over the place. I didn't realize that Amit had anything to do with "What the Bleep", but it doesn't surprise me. Honestly I didn't get a lot out of that movie. A couple interesting things, sure... but for the subject matter I found "The Secret" to have much more substance. Though even that was lacking as far as explaining how it could all work.



Actually I meant the book 'What The Bleep Do We Know' and not the movie. Sorry I should have specifified. I didn't like the movie at all. The book is fantastic. Night and day difference between the two. You would like it alot based on what I see in this thread



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 10:02 AM
link   
what do you class as a deam though, if your classing life as a dream then whats a deam?



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 10:12 AM
link   
Unbelievable.. I come up with a thread that I think is unique (The infinite journey of your consciousness) and then I discover this one


It seems you and I have very similar thoughts on existence but with their differences.

If the reality we perceive is a dream, then there must be an actual reality somewhere that exists for real? If this is a dream then do you not exist? Am I here in my home manifested by my mind talking to people that has been made up by my consciousness? An interesting theory..



new topics




 
15
<<   2 >>

log in

join