It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Jesus and Pilate and torture and the crucifixion questions.

page: 2
0
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 20 2004 @ 02:03 PM
link   
Exactly.

Scat,

The Cross is a symbol of Christianity because it is the symbol that shows Jesus loved the world and humanity so much, that he gave his life for them. Can you say the same? I highly doubt you would give your life for humanity - I wouldn't, I don't think any 'logical' human being would. Like Net said, the symbol of the Cross is a transaction, the transaction of Jesus Christ Incarnate sacrificing and showing the world what he was meant to do - fulfill the prophecy. He did. The symbol of the Cross is the symbol of Jesus following his Father's words, yes, he had to die, but it was for humanity. Of course, you are right that they were nailed through the hands at the time, and if you look at any crucifixion cross with Jesus on it, you will see that it IS through the wrists. (At least at my parish this is how it is) It could vary from place to place, I dunno. Actually, about the two men behind him, the two convicts? Well, one repented for his sins, because he recognized the man hanging in aside him. The other, the one to his left I believe, did not. This man mocked and mocked Jesus until death, but Jesus forgave the man. Jesus gave this man a place in heaven, because the convict knew no better, he knew nothing better than to steal and kill. Jesus forgave his sins before he died. So there was significance to the other two men. This is part of the Stations of the Cross, just a lesser known part, that is all. That station shows that, even until Jesus' human death, he was loving, compassionate, and healing. And the Romans killed him? Most Romans wanted him dead because of fear, likewise with the Jewish leaders, most of them feared he would ruin Judaism. They thought him a false-prophet, some did, others didn't. These are the reasons for his death. Anyways, back to the Cross. The Cross does not represent the loving, caring, compassionate aspect of Christianity, it represents the sacrifices we are EXPECTED to make in our lives for God. Life is hard, everyone knows it, but believe, and have faith. For some this may be hard, but, keep trying, and it will happen. I dunno about everyone else, but I feel most religions teach the same thing - love, compassion, non-hatred. With these the world would become good again. . .if it ever was. It is a shame really, how we can't even walk out into the street without getting beat, I saw it today, while watching a documentary. A college student, his graduation day, walking back to his dorm. Minding his own business, another man, younger, approaches him, says nothing, and then beats him in the face. It was all caught on camera..the man was prosecuted and sent to jail.
IS THIS THE KIND OF WORLD WE WANT TO LIVE IN?
No. It isn't the kind of world we want to live in. The world needs to wake up and see that if we all could just ATTEMPT to TRY and WORK TOGETHER, that we would be %200 better off..but ignorance and greed stop this. It is sad really...how so many people could persecute a man who did all right, jealous maybe? But most likely in fear that he was too perfect. It happens today. When there is a perfect person, everyone becomes full of hatred. Odd? Jealousy, fear...whatever it may be..it is sad really. What is even worse, is that if Jesus was to return today, this very second, make a public appearance on Foxnews or CNN..no one would believe him. No one. None at all. EVEN if he WAS Jesus and NOT a false prophet..aren't we hyprocrits? We say we WANT a Savior to return, but as soon as one pops up, he is false. Sad...

The world needs to come together folks...we gotta start somewhere, don't ya think?

(Sorry about preaching
)

-wD




posted on Feb, 21 2004 @ 12:32 AM
link   
in too many paintings ive seen it through the hands and this drives my insane.

i meant to offense to the cross, i just found it eerily ironic. sadistic?


the other two men having significance is wonderful to the story, but fact is fact, is was normal execution. as beautiful and passionate as it was, it was a routine. they even nailed some upside down so as the blood would rush to the brain and they would basically....explode.

HOLY CRAP I CANT BELIEVE IM DEFENDING FACT OVER EMOTION....SOMEONE STOP ME

im gonna have to start getting poetic because i cannot deal with the fact that im placing logic over emotion.

dying to wipe away anothers sin is beautiful, the ultimate sacrifice. and yes, youre right i wouldnt do it. i know alot of people you clai theyw ould, but most jsut want to be another martyr. but i dont see it as meeting a quota. as in ok we have this many sins we need this many sacrifices, doesnt matter who does what or how many just as long as we meet quota. i completely understand the concept of the death of christ schpeal but i know many who will do anything they want without care, then go ask for forgiveness, and say ok now im all good. in my eyes, theres a difference between getting caught up in a moment and going out and looking for one.

but i still honestly believe that christ was a human being, not "god" as some call him. he was a beautiful human being, if the stories are true. and even if they are not, he is a beautiful character. i see the bible as literature, wonderful literature for those wh enjoy the language. i believe he existed, but i am not going to trouble myself about it. and no, i dont have a reaon. i know alot of people who run around saying i have a reason so booyah. but i honestly dont have a reason, and im no less equal than them. they have a reason because they need one. i dont have a reason because i dont need one. its balanced. its beautiful. and the world keeps turning.

and how the hell do you spell cruxcifiction...is that right? i feel like a freckin moron because im not sure if im spelling it right.



posted on Feb, 21 2004 @ 12:47 AM
link   
Scat are you sure about the hanging people upside down bit? I heard it was a worse punishment than right side up because people hung face up drowned in their own fliuds in their lungs. Witht ehir arms raised the fluids gathered in their lungs and they couldn't expell them. Thats why when they pierced Jesus side with a spear blood and water came out, it came from the lungs.

If you hang them upside down then the fluid drains out and the only death it through blood loss or thirst. Its meant to have happened to Paul and been an extra cruel form of death.



Originally posted by Scat
the other two men having significance is wonderful to the story, but fact is fact, is was normal execution. as beautiful and passionate as it was, it was a routine. they even nailed some upside down so as the blood would rush to the brain and they would basically....explode.



posted on Feb, 21 2004 @ 12:53 AM
link   
exactly, they even hung some people upside down because they were torture hungry. ive never heard the lungs bit but thats completely understandable and probably accurate. but i know just by staying in a handstand for 10 second that your brain will EXPLODE! maybe not literally


maybe i shouldnt have laughed, seeing how we are talking about torture and all, oh well



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 09:13 AM
link   
I'll check into it later... but wasn't the cross a holy symbol before Christ's death? I'm not saying in the Hebrew world, but in religions in general. I'm pretty sure it was, like the four cardinal points, or something.

And it isn't the swatstika... even though that was holy, too... but the actual cross image...

Ahh, well... I'll check into it and post it later.



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 09:20 AM
link   
I still find that a lot of things don't add up...

I still think that the theory that Joseph of Arimethea, and the Marys (Magdelene, and his Mother) conspired and actually rescued Jesus off the cross when he was not dead, and sealed up an empty tomb...hence the "Resurrection"...

There is good evidence Jesus went on to travel through to Europe, with Mary Magdelene as his wife, and that he continued to preach, and even had children...ultimately residing in Reinnes, France.



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 10:52 AM
link   
Found out the Knights Templar had documents which stated Christ did not die on the cross, but rather he and Mary of Mag ran off and went to France, where they had three children.

The Knights Templar were sworn to protect the 'divine offspring'... but eventually, their ideals and those of the Catholic Church collided. In an attempt to rid themselves of evidence, the Church sent the Templars to start the Holy Wars, hoping that the war would be the last of them.

I do have a link to this... but I have to find it again. I'll edit and post it later.



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 11:05 AM
link   
www....-------------------------/library/conspiracy/knights-templar/

www.theseekerbooks.com...

Interesting, none-the-less. I've always found it a bit odd where, when Jesus was carry-ing the cross, when he stumbled, that Simon? John? rushed to his side saying, let me carry this burden.

Now, it could have been out of friendship that the offer was made... but knowing the reasons behind the whole crucifiction, what would have the point been? Perhaps it was Jesus who rushed on over and said "Let me carry this burden".

Since Jesus was given the choice of living or not in the garden before the guards took him away... if anything, it is possible that Jesus (being a man after all), chose life.



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 11:44 AM
link   
The whole story of the crucifixion stinks of political manipulation.
For a start, execution by crucifiction was an exclusively Roman punishment reserved for enemies of the Empire. Yet nowhere in the Bible do we see Jesus having trouble with the Roman authorities. Jewish punishment was stoning. Why would a Roman procurator punish a man with a death like crucifixion if he had not transgressed against Rome?
The dates in the Gospel wildly differ as to the timing of the execution. Three gospels state that it occured the day before Passover and one states that it was the da after. Then we have the fact that Jesus was crucified on the word of the Sanhedran which met on Passover. This is in direct contradiction of the facts. The Sanhedrin was not allowed to meet on Passover. It was Jewish law!!
The so-called custom of releasing a prisoner at Passover also never existed!!!
Add to this the fact that a Roman procurator would never bow before a mob and you are left with some very interesting questions indeed.

I believe that Jesus was arrested by the Romans as a freedom fighter. He was meant to be the uniter of Jews and would have been their king in their fight against the Roman occupation. Hence the Crown of Thorns was no joke. The Romans viewed Jesus as the King of the Jews and by crucifying him they could put down a possible rebellion.

The whole crucifixion was then nicely blamed on the Jews. But let's remember who the targets of early Christian conversions were. Yes, that's right - Romans!!! You are hardly going to sell a religion to a people by accusing them of destroying their own saviour are you!!!?



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 11:46 AM
link   

Originally posted by Leveller
You are hardly going to sell a religion to a people by accusing them of destroying their own saviour are you!!!?


Umm... actually... the Jews still don't believe in Jesus the Messiah.



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 11:50 AM
link   
In the book The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, the Merovingian kings were said to be direct descendants of Mary Magdalene and Jesus Christ, once they arrived in southern France following Christ's crucifixion and "resurrection."

The Merovingian is also a (French) character in the Science Fiction films Matrix Reloaded and The Matrix Revolutions.



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 11:54 AM
link   

Originally posted by soothsayer

Originally posted by Leveller
You are hardly going to sell a religion to a people by accusing them of destroying their own saviour are you!!!?


Umm... actually... the Jews still don't believe in Jesus the Messiah.


Ummm...actually....I was referring to the Romans.



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 01:39 PM
link   
Excellent points Leveller, I had almost forgotten them....especially about the crucifixion being reserved for enemies of the Empire...

Still, a cross makes for a much more compelling story, don't you think? Couple this with there being little evidence of this even being a real person (though I think he was), and you really have room for doubt here...



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 01:51 PM
link   
Pilot did it because the Pharasee's (Jewish leaders), wanted Christ condemned. I think it is because he had children to several women which was obviously looked down upon.



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 02:14 PM
link   
The Pharasees would not have turned to the Roman procurator to have another Jew condemned over a religious matter.
All religion was dealt with by the Sanhedrin and not the Roman military governor.

Pilate was not a man who really cared about Jewish religion. On two occasions he incensed the Jews. The first time was when he hung golden shields inscribed with the names of deities in his palace on Mt. Zion. The emperor himself had to actually order them removed. The second time was when he used revenue from the Temple, collected from the redemption of vows, for the building of an aqueduct.

The ancient historian Philo describes Pilate as "a man of inflexible disposition, harsh and obdurate". Yet here we are to accept that the leader of a powerful occupying force showed sympathy with a Jewish rabbi?
Pilate hated the Jews whom he ruled, and in times of irritation freely shed their blood. They returned his hatred with cordiality, and accused him of every crime, maladministration, cruelty, and robbery. He was hardly a man to turn to to try one of their own.
When Pilate placed the placard on the cross, just above Jesus? head ? "This is Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" ? it was intended to be a cutting insult to the Hebrew people, to the effect, ?Behold, your crucified (criminal) king!?

Of course, if the accused were guilty of breaking Roman law and not Jewish law, the whole situation would make sense.



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 02:18 PM
link   
Pilate was canonized(?)... made into a saint. Why would the Church do that?



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 02:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by soothsayer
Pilate was canonized(?)... made into a saint. Why would the Church do that?

I would bet that is not true. Having been raised Catholic, I never heard that one.

Pilate was a very brutal and bloodthirsty man. A few years later, her was recalled to Rome, allegedly because of his brutality. He may have commit suicide thereafter.

[Edited on 26-2-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 02:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by Gazrok
Still, a cross makes for a much more compelling story, don't you think? Couple this with there being little evidence of this even being a real person (though I think he was), and you really have room for doubt here...


Wouldn't you think that there would be civil reports of this at the Roman level, or relgious reports at the Jewish level. If this was an unusual occurrence, in that the Roman Governor was against it, would it not have been scribed somewhere???



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 02:43 PM
link   
Yes, and that's just it...there isn't such a record...



posted on Feb, 26 2004 @ 02:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
The Cross does not represent the loving, caring, compassionate aspect of Christianity, it represents the sacrifices we are EXPECTED to make in our lives for God. Life is hard, everyone knows it, but believe, and have faith. For some this may be hard, but, keep trying, and it will happen. I dunno about everyone else, but I feel most religions teach the same thing - love, compassion, non-hatred. With these the world would become good again. . .if it ever was.


Thanks for explaining this, WD. I have wondered for years as to why Christians wear crucifixes - In fact, I even mentioned this in another thread. I used to think it rather morbid, or at best just a way of reminding themselves what Christ did for them.

Netchicken - St. Peter was crucified upside down because he claimed he was not worthy to die in the same manner as Christ.







 
0
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join