Jesus and Pilate and torture and the crucifixion questions.

Why did Pilate have Jesus scourged? What was His crime to be scourged? What was the Scourgings purpose? Was it Pilate's idea to have Him mocked by crowning Him with thorns and displayed in front of the crowd. Did he personally order Christ's crucifixion? Why did he wash his hand symbolically of it.

Was Pilate just acting in a way to control the Jews from not rebelling against him if he didn't do anything.

I know Pilate was a ruthless man and cared only for order, so why did Christ get Crucified, when did Pilate conclude we must crucify this Jesus?

[Edited on 2-19-2004 by Cearbhall]

Pilate didn't want to crucify Jesus. He had no reason (political) to do so. It has been rumored that his wife also had had a vision, telling Pilate of what would happen.

The temple leaders wanted Jesus crucified, because he proclaimed himself the Messiah, when no man dare utter such words, especially from such a lower person such as the son of a carpenter.

Pilate did not order Jesus' crucifiction... he left it up to the people to vote on it. "Choose, murderer Barbaose, or Jesus, to be freed on this Sabbath", or words to that extent.

Pilate wanted Jesus to be freed... but he could not go against the puppet temple leaders; I'm sure there is more, but this isn't my area. Pilate was eventually recognized as a Saint (or something) by the Catholic Church... once again, there is something specific, but I don't remember for what.

Hamilton, it's all yours...

The purpose of the scouging, or whipping was to weaken his body so that he didn't take so long to die on the cross - it was a mercy action on the part of Pilate.

Don't forget they were all suprised when they went to take down his body to find he was already dead.

Soothsayer is right about Pilate and that he didn't want to crucify Jesus but was pressured by the crowd to do so. His action then was to make it easier for Jesus to die and not suffer so much.

Pilate said that he will have nothing to do with it and gave all desicions to the Jews. He didnt want to kill him and said that Jesus was innocent and that he didnt do anything wrong.

Net,
He was scourged before he was condemned by the crowd to be crucified wasn't he.

About the crowd, if they did pick Jesus would Barabbas have been crucified instead of Jesus.

AD,
I thought only the Roman govt. could hand down crucifixion.

Nope, he was whipped after being condemned...

15 Now it was the governor's custom to release one prisoner to the crowd each year during the Passover celebration-anyone they wanted.
16 This year there was a notorious criminal in prison, a man named Barabbas.*
17 As the crowds gathered before Pilate's house that morning, he asked them, "Which one do you want me to release to you-Barabbas, or Jesus who is called the Messiah?"
18 (He knew very well that the Jewish leaders had arrested Jesus out of envy.)
19 Just then, as Pilate was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent him this message: "Leave that innocent man alone, because I had a terrible nightmare about him last night."
20 Meanwhile, the leading priests and other leaders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas to be released and for Jesus to be put to death.
21 So when the governor asked again, "Which of these two do you want me to release to you?" the crowd shouted back their reply: "Barabbas!"
22 "But if I release Barabbas," Pilate asked them, "what should I do with Jesus who is called the Messiah?" And they all shouted, "Crucify him!"
23 "Why?" Pilate demanded. "What crime has he committed?" But the crowd only roared the louder, "Crucify him!"
24 Pilate saw that he wasn't getting anywhere and that a riot was developing. So he sent for a bowl of water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this man. The responsibility is yours!"
25 And all the people yelled back, "We will take responsibility for his death-we and our children!"*
26 So Pilate released Barabbas to them. He ordered Jesus flogged with a lead- tipped whip, then turned him over to the Roman soldiers to crucify him.

here

[Edited on 19-2-2004 by Netchicken]

Oh yeah your right Net!

Were all those that were going to be crucified scourged? Was it common practise?

Seems so ...

westover.searchgodsword.org...
The punishment of scourging was common among the Jews. The instrument of punishment in ancient Egypt, as it is also in modern times generally in the East, was usually the stick, applied to the soles of the feet -- bastinado.

Under the Roman method the culprit was stripped, stretched with cords or thongs on a frame and beaten with rods. (Another form of the scourge consisted of a handle with three lashes or thongs of leather or cord, sometimes with pieces of metal fastened to them. Roman citizens were exempt by their law from scourging.

www.churches-of-christ.net...
There is much disagreement among the authorities as to the scourging. This was a Roman , not a Jewish, custom.

The hands were tied high to a tree or post. A whip was made of a short wood handle and heavy leather straps bearing usually the sharp bones of sheep knuckles or lead balls on the ends. The Jews forbade more than forty lashes (thirty nine was the maximum allowed), but the Romans did not have this limit. The scourging was usually carried out by a Roman soldier.

The whip was brought down upon the bare back, cutting the skin first; then as the beating progressed, the muscles were laid bare, bruised and bleeding with marked loss of blood. In a significant number of instances this was enough to kill a man.

Ribs were broken, nerves exposed. Again and again, down came the whip until either death or unconsciousness occurred. Both venous and arterial bleeding occurred. Large deep, dark, bruised surfaces began to appear. Finally the skin of the back is hanging in long shreds. The whole area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue.

Yes, if Barabbas would have been picked (wouldn't have been, though, as Jesus was born to fulfill this prophecy) Jesus would have been let go, only to be mocked by the public, though, which was already going on, anyways. You have to remember that Jesus didn't even want to die, on the cross, he asked his Father, God, in the Final Prayer, "Why do I have to do this, Father?" (That is a rough translation, I don't have the Scripture in front of me) He really didn't want to, because he knew the pain and whatnot that would come, however, he had to fulfill the prophecy, that was made hundreds of years beforehand.

Just some background on the Crucifixion..any questions, just U2U me, maybe like Stations of the Cross, etc..people who were there, etc..

Peace,

-wD

Yea I am curious on the step by step process that Jesus went through from the beating to the crucifixion. Like why did Pilate do the things he did etc.

So Pilate gave into the crowd and crucified Jesus which only a the Roman govt could issue.

[Edited on 2-19-2004 by Cearbhall]

Good questions, Cearbhall. Bom Dia. Tudo bem? [Portuguese, folks]

Q: Would Barabbas have been crucified instead of Jesus if the crowd chose differently?

Answer: The redemption of man could not be brought about by any other means than the death of Jesus Christ.

How reluctant an executioner was Pilate? When Jesus was dragged before him a second time, he said to the accusers of Jesus: �You have presented unto me this man, as one that perverteth the people, and behold I having examined him before you, find no cause in this man in those things wherein you accuse him. No, nor Herod neither. For I sent you to him, and behold, nothing worthy of death is done to him. I will chastise him, therefore, and release him.�

When the Pharisees heard these words, they became furious, and endeavoured to the utmost of their power to persuade the people to revolt, distributing money among them to effect this purpose. Pilate looked around with contempt, and addressed them in scornful words.

It happened to be the precise time when, according to an ancient custom, the people had the privilege of demanding the deliverance of one prisoner. The Pharisees had dispatched emissaries to persuade the people to demand the death, and not the life, of our Lord. Pilate hoped that they would ask for Jesus, and determined to give them to choose between him and a criminal called Barabbas, who had been convicted of a dreadful murder, and was, moreover, detested by the people.


Though Netchicken is correct about one purpose or effect of scourging, that was not the primary reason in this case. Pilate had resolved not to condemn Jesus to death. So to appease the riotous blood-thirsty crowd, he ordered him to be scourged according to the manner of the Romans. He hoped this would restore order while maintaining his pledge.

Read more here

[Edited on 19-2-2004 by RogueOne]

but the Scourging didn't appease the Jewish leadership and so Pilate had to finally order death to Jesus, right? Was it Pilate's idea to mock him with the thorns too?

This might be implied in the text, but its not explicit, he was scourged and sent to be crucified. There is no middle bit where Pilate asked the people again. It was not to placate the people, they had made their decision, just read the text above...

I think the thorns was the soldiers idea....

Originally posted by Cearbhall
but the Scourging didn't appease the Jewish leadership and so Pilate had to finally order death to Jesus, right? Was it Pilate's idea to mock him with the thorns too?

Pontius Pilate worked for the Roman Government himself. Pilate, yes, did give into the crowd, because that was the choice the crowd made. Pilate got his orders from King Herod, who also was the Roman Government.

After Jesus was condemned to death, he was immediately stripped down to just a simple garment. The guards and crowd mocked him with "Jesus, King of the Jews!" After they did this, or while, either one, they gave him a crown of thorns, to mock him being the King. The cross was given to him, the heaviest type, and he was set off with guards in front, aside, and behind him. A huge crowd of mockers, followers, people that loved him, people that hated him, all of them, followed him in a huge group. On the way there, Jesus stumbled because he was tiring, he stumbled twice. On his way there, one of the people in the crowd, a young man named Simon, was forced by the Roman guards to help Jesus carry the cross. He took up the back of the Cross, as it was dragging in the dirt.
Next he came upon Mary Magdelene, who, because she was a close follower of him, gave him a cloth to wipe his face of the sweat and blood that was coming out. When he gave the cloth back to her, the cloth, instead of sweat and blood, had HIS face on it - the face of Jesus Christ. The guards forced him to continue, and he stumbled again. He was helped up, by the guards and Simon. Jesus saw his mother Mary, weeping hysterically in the crowd, following Jesus. Jesus stopped, the guards allowed, suprisingly, and they talked. According to the Bible, Jesus told her not to worry, about how he needed to do this, and how Jesus would bring Salvation to all whom believed. Jesus was again, led away, this time they arrived upon the place they called the Skull, or Golgotha in Aramaic. Jesus was placed on the cross, stripped down, and was nailed. To this day, people around the world get the phenomena, we call Stigmata, the signs of the Crucifixion upon one's body (the hands, feet, and side) Jesus was placed upon the cross, nailed in those places. Jesus prayed to his Father, God, and asked why he had to do this, said a final prayer. He was then stabbed with a spear from one of the guards, to ease the pain and put him out of misery. Jesus prayed, and then died upon the cross.

That is the Stations of the Cross in a nutshell. I could give you names, what happened afterwards, etc, juss U2U me

Stigmata is really, really scary. A number of holy people have had it, including St. Francis of Assisi, the animal lover, suffered from Stigmata. More recently, St. Padre Pio, born in the early 1900's, who died in the 80's, suffered from it, and performed many documented miracles, including the healing of boy, who should have died, because most of the cells in his brain were dead. According to the account, Pio came in through prayer by pastors, families, friends, a huge gathering, and the boy lived, and is still alive to this day. These are some of the more known accounts of Stigmata, definately not a disease, but a blessing, yes, a bloody one, but a Holy Blessing from the Heavens.



-wD

This was just something the Roman soldiers did. I can find no other reasons or such references for this. It was to mock him.

"The crown of thorns was made of three branches plaited together, the greatest part of the thorns being purposely turned inwards so as to pierce our Lord�s head. Having first placed these twisted branches on his forehead, they tied them tightly together at the back of his head, and no sooner was this accomplished to their satisfaction than they put a large reed into his hand, doing all with derisive gravity as if they were really crowning him king. They then seized the reed, and struck his head so violently that his eyes were filled with blood; they knelt before him, derided him, spat in his face, and buffeted him, saying at the same time, �Hail, King of the Jews!' Then they threw down his stool, pulled him up again from the ground on which he had fallen, and reseated him with the greatest possible brutality."

There is a Dr. Fred T. Zugibe in New York who's studied the subject (forensically) for 50 years. He has much info on this.

people think the CRUXIFICTION!!!! is such a big deal and that the fact that jesus was cruxcified is all WHOAAAAAAAAA....but honestly its not. it was the STANDARD execution method of the time. and its not like jesus was on some big hill by himself with the whole world around. there were other crosses behind him with people awaiting the same fate...being nailed to the cross...through the WRISTS. yes the WRISTS. the whole nail-in-the-hands schpeal is inaccurate, they actually were held up by their wrists. i find it funny that the sign of christianity promoting love, faith, and blah blah blah is actually an ancient method of torture and death. ironic!

Crowning with thorns. More-

Dr. Fred T. Zugibe is the former medical examiner in Rockland County, New York, and a man who has studied the Crucifixion for fifty years, considered by some as the world's ranking expert.

According to him, "People think that was just a parody, a mockery, of His kingship, and yes, that was part of it. But the effect of the crowning of thorns was far beyond that. More than mockery, it was another infliction of severe pain that added to the shock.

"What happens is that if you analyze a plant like the zizziphus spina christii or 'Christ thorn' plant, which may have been used, that would cause a condition called 'trigeminal neuralgia,'" says the anatomical expert. "I've seen many cases of it, and it's a very severe pain that goes across the face. If you take a little twig of the trigeminal nerve that goes into the tooth and it becomes irritated, you get a toothache. So you have an idea of the sensitivity.

"Now take the whole branch of the nerve -- which goes across the face and head area, by the eyes -- and it's a triple branching that would be irritated.

"The pain is so severe that some people have actually committed suicide.

"It may stop, and then a whisp of wind will bring back the pain.

"It is very agonizing and all these things add to the traumatic shock."

Imagine.
Rogue

Scat ... thats because you don't understand the signifigence of the event that happened at the time, ...

That one death was not just an ordinary death, it never happened before nor will ever again. Because of Jesus death the world was changed. The cross is symbolic of the transaction that occured, .....


[Edited on 19-2-2004 by Netchicken]

that one death really IS just one death when you view jesus unbiased

as a human.

not as a god.

and thats what i was talking about, the act of cruxcifction (am i spelling this wrong?). not the holiness of jesus. but honestly, i believe he was a human. not a god. god wouldnt be so obvious.

this has nothing to do with the forum- but its for rogue. rogue was so great in the comics, but they made her look like a mindless idiot in the movies. personally i liked gambit. god why do i know anything about comics?