Christians...how do you justify all of this?

reply to post by themillersdaughter



I have never heard anyone speak with such venom. What is your problem?

You have no idea what you are talking about regards Christianity and who God is or how he affects peoples lives.
I find your post very insulting and not called for.
You remind me of a spoilt little child who just loves getting peoples back up for the sheer joy of it.
GROW UP.




[Mod Edit - Remove large quote]

Mod Note Please Review: Warnings for excessive quoting, and how to quote

Quote the post immediately before yours: This makes no sense, and quoting the entire previous post above yours will result in a slight warning.

[edit on 7/3/2008 by Sauron]

reply to post by jon1


Hmmm...I thought that she stated her case quite well.

Was it the actual content that you have an issue with, or just the method of delivery?

reply to post by themillersdaughter

Was his name Bart D. Ehrman?

He has been on NPR as well as CBC.

His new book "Misquoting Jesus" is very well done. He was a believer who became a Athiest.

reply to post by themillersdaughter


First of all I don't know why, but I feel you are associated with wicca. If your not, sorry I falsly accused you of being associated with a religion in which you are not (I had a friend that was a wiccan and for some reason you give off the same vibe).

Also, I keep noticing something, anytime some claims to have "facts" that "prove" the bible wrong I can also disprove what the person is saying, now I don't have the time, patience, or health at the moment to go over all this stuff, but as for Christians killing people in the Crusades. Those were'nt Christians, they were Catholics, BIG difference. I'll explain:

Christians, we believe that Yeshua is God and that He came to earth as the final sacrifice for sin and that the only way to salvation is through Him. We also believe in what He told us to do which is helping other and loving others regardless of religion, color, nationality or whatever the case may be (watch the movie "End of the Spear" and you'll understand a little more).

Catholics, they believe that Marry is the mother of God and that she can give salvation and that there is no need to do as Yeshua said as long as you pay (with money) for your salvation. There is a lot more in the modern Catholic church that I could point out which shows BIG differences between Christians and Catholics, but as I previously stated, I'm not feeling well.

What does this mean?:

"Paul, one of the original Apostles, said of this "...If Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain" (1 Cor. 5:17).

Uh oh!!

So, if the Bible isn't historic - especially the New Testament -- just what is it? "

What does salvation have to do with history? Please, don't believe something just because it supports your ideals, test it to make sure it's true.

I think I'm done for the day.

Peace,

-Jimmy

reply to post by jon1


I apologize if my words caused you pain.

I'm not suggesting Christians should dispense with their beliefs...is there some reason your anger is over-riding your intellect?

I am well aware that God can have immense effect on a person's life. Sometimes it is good and sometimes it means you're being tied to a stake and burnt alive.

And I can assure you that I am "all grown up and haired over".

Edit for typo..

[edit on 3/7/08 by themillersdaughter]

Religion be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.....is trying to explain meta-physics with physics or words.

How can this be done? It can't.

Most religious passages are like a dog chasing it's tail, because they refer to other passages to explain the other. And when this doesn't seem to work well it leaves everything up to individual or group interpretation.

Unfortunately faith is just that faith, whatever you may believe.

IMO we are all this word "God" no one better, no one worse just different. I feel we are all part of this oneness of the universe.

How many of us are quick to judge? How many of us use religion, politics, money to separate ourselves from others?

Our egos just tell us that we are better than others, be it religion, money, social status, intelligence, looks. It's time to start recognizing similarities and positive things, but the world we live in teaches us how to fear and not trust or only trust a certain group.

I don't have any answer really just observations, so with that Peace.




[edit on 7-3-2008 by Realtruth]

Jon1, that was not very civil and not very Christ like I understand that they are putting down your God, but He chose to be put down so others can live.

Also, I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to be mean or angry, I'm just not feeling well and I'm a little frustrated with the same old, same old. Doesn't anyone have anything new to say anymore, or are we going to keep going around in circles on this subject "Jesus is bad", "Jesus is good", nobody really shows any real proof of what they're saying (some have though, on both sides) they just spit up stuff that someone else said and they go along with it just cause it supports they're idea, nobody really test the validity of they're staments.

Originally posted by BlackOps719

And I wont even get into the suffering that has taken place world wide at the hands of Christian progress. It would be grand to ignore religion and Christianity as a whole, but since it is all around us in every facet of our lives and since it is being crammed down our throats on a daily basis, I would like a full account of what it is I am supposed to be believing here.

Can you explain this suffering that is taking place around the world due to Christianity? Even if you want to dwell in the past and say Christianity caused evil it is rather easy to see that the lack of moral restraints has caused the most evil in mans history.

Christianity in its pure form provides moral restraints and when corrupted is no longer Christianity. If I go out and decide to kill 100 people in the name of Christianity it doesn’t make it a Christian evil act. What it does make it is an evil act of a man. In our history man has used what ever they can as a motivator and then corrupt that motivator to fit their needs. Nationalism by far has been the greatest motivator of evil acts that man has ever used, and the reason is there are no moral restraints associated with it. This allows man to spin out of control in some very extreme evil directions all in the name of nationalism.

On the other hand, tomorrow I could rewrite the bible in a very perverse way and it would not automatically rewrite itself back into the pure form. With that said anything that man has had influence over will be corrupted from its original form. This is because every time the original form is touched, the personal views and thoughts of those that are touching it will corrupt it in some way. I do not know of any Christians that would state that the bible has never changed from day one, even with the fact that the bible was never a whole book to begin with and every part was picked and written by man.

Now to say god influenced this whole process to ensure not one single word has changed totally goes against man’s freewill. As I said in a earlier post the concepts of Christianity is not something that is written in stone that one must unthinkingly follow to the letter of what is written down, but it is a way of life that deals with living a life of moral good. We can debate what is good or not and that would be an interesting one, but I find the discussion of Christianity in whether there are logic loops that disprove it or not I find old and boring.


[edit on 7-3-2008 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by BlackOps719


Alrighty. So essentially what you are seeing is an attempt to explain what happened. Some of it has clearly been mistranslated and/or exaggerated, but the main points seem valid and occur globally. For example, there's a similar story from ancient India, where the "Moon god" came down and impregnated this female who was basically an outcast. A "nobody" (not that i agree that anyone is a nobody, but this is how the story is recounted). She became pregnant with the child of this "Moon god." The child grew up and founded his own empire and religious sect in India. He was a hybrid. That "Moon god" is what we today might refer to as an angelic being (bene elohim) or an Extra-terrestrial or a figment of someone's imagination or simply a god (an elohim class being). I believe these ancient stories are telling us that this planet and the genome of every living thing on this planet, has been tinkered with in the past by .....Something alot smarter than us, but not always more moral or kinder or loving.

According to scripture and the book of 1Enoch, these angels were punished for what they did. Prior to the flood (Black Sea Flood if you wish to give it a name), the genomes of our planet were in a state of horrible duress. Everything was polluted. The "Bene Elohim" of the hindu Mahabharata, were engaged in wars that'd put ours to shame, just for the sheer drama of it all. Unfortunately, that drama also carried with it, real consequences. The planet was in shambles. The genome was in shambles. Humans were being eaten by the hybrids (who were the kings and rulers and founders of the various religions of the time) as a food source because there was no food left (too much pollution! even meat was no longer edible. sound familar? It should!)

The big story is that there's a group of these angelic beings who try to defend humanity threw this ordeal and a group who do the opposite. By the opposite I must point you to the "Nephilim", the hybrids. A hybrid is neither a bene elohim or a human. Apparently, at one time (before Christ), a hybrid had no chance of obtaining a resurrectable body. This is outlined most significantly in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Even though he is 2/3rds "god", he does not have access to an immortal body. When his body dies, it will NEVER resurrect. This distresses him greatly which is the impetus for his journey. It's also the backdrop of the 1Enoch reference - "as they people perished their cries went up to heaven." (paraphrasing)

Of course, this is assuming you believe you have an eternal soul or spirit, and that the other part (your body) will be resurrected at some point as an immortal body.

This was the job of the hebrews, to deliver human DNA to advent of the Messiah. Once Jesus was here, he offered eternal life (of the soul/spirt AND the body) to anyone who wanted it (meaning, when he accepted the Gentiles, he offered the hybrids an opportunity to be redeemed). However, in the Old Testament, that offer was not there and in fact, the hybrid population threatened to wipe out humans forever, so this was a huge impetus behind the example where every single man woman and child were killed. It was literally a matter of homo sapians being snuffed out forever, having no immortal body and only a bodiless soul to roam eternity in, which was apparently not very attractive to even Gilgamesh.

How'm I doing so far?

reply to post by undo


Wow, your doing very well.

I'm done for today, really, I am.

reply to post by undo



So far so good Undo, I appreciate the effort. It all reads like some sort of crazy sci-fi plot to be honest, but I am trying to keep my mind open. It is all very fantastic indeed.

You seem to have a great deal of knowledge on the matter at hand, and again I thank you for sharing with the others here so that we may better understand.

Originally posted by The time lord
First off, God him self flooded the whole world in judgment?

Did anyone tell you why at school? Do you still not know?

First off God wiped out all living things including Animals off the face of the planet and saved Noah and his family and the Animals with a good gene variety.

Why would a loving God kill, destroy all living things?
[edit on 6-3-2008 by The time lord]

If I'm not mistaken, Fish and water creatures are Living Things? The great flood surely didn't kill off all the sea life. Just the land locked living things got the short end of the stick.....

I've not heard a good explanation for this... The Flood and Living Creatures in the Waters.... perhaps someone can shed some light on this.

reply to post by jimmyjackblack



You are misguided in your belief that I am associated with Wicca (another man made religion, btw). It seems strange that you would make that assumption...as if you were psychic or something (isn't that against the rules in Christianity)?! Perhaps your aquaintance is just a well-read, self educated, literate person with the ability to think for herself and you sense the same about me???


I am not claiming to have "proof" of anything. Except for historical fact. Is there something wrong with fact? Are you claiming to have "proof" that the Bible is the inherent word of God? Or do you take that on "faith"?

I do not understand why so many Christians want to make a distinction about Catholics and Christians. The were the beginning of the faith...they are the roots of the church...if they are apostate, then so are you. You can't change history...no matter how much you'd like to.

Since you are done for the day, I won't bother explaining what I meant, as you obviously don't care to know.

reply to post by undo



Keep it up undo. I wish I had the same patience like you. With your last post, it touches the "death" issue.

I am sure that Christians should be able to understand the different kinds of deaths described in the bible.


[edit on 7-3-2008 by searching_for_truth]

[edit on 7-3-2008 by searching_for_truth]

well the whole noah and his arc story is just pure symbolism. if someone literally believes noah fit 2 of all 6 billion species in that exist world on a boat, i would like to talk to him...i got a good deal on some merchandise for him...

I don't get why people keep saying that the old testament doesn't matter it's all about the new testament. What about all the prophecies in Isaiah that refer to jesus being born, or the prophecies in Daniel that relate to the end times. I guess those don't matter now do they because the old testament doesn't relate to christians nowadays.

It seems to me that a whole lot of you christians are picking and choosing what scriptures suit you best. And to say that the old testament does not relate to the new testament is just ignorant.

IT'S ALL IN THE SAME BOOK. If you call yourself a christian you should be prepared to back up the whole bible not just the new testament.

reply to post by runetang

as you say runetang followers of Messiah are to be peaceful until you throw in "a conspiracy angle"? Messiah born a jew is the G-D of the old covenant (john 1:1-14)

revelation19:11 and i saw heaven opened,and behold,a white horse,and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True,and in righteousness He judges and wages war------15from His mouth comes a sharp sword,so that with it He may strike down the nations,and He will rule them with a rod of iron;and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of G-D,the Almighty.16 and on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written,King of Kings,and Lord of Lords.17 then i saw an angel standing in the sun and he cried out with a loud voice,saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven,come,assemble for the great supper of G-D,19 and i saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him Who sat on the horse and against His army,20 and the beast was seized,and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence,by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worship his image;these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.21and the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse,and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

so here you have the Messiah and founder of the new testament religion, covered with blood as He slaughters the armies of the king of the south,the king of the north and the last to arrive the 200 million of the asians armies.revelation 14:19-20 a lake of blood 200 miles long as deep as a horses mouth piece is high from the ground.

i"d sooner be following Messiah than getting in His way---if He wants me to turn the other cheek for now---i"ll try hard to comply.

Originally posted by theendisnear69
I don't get why people keep saying that the old testament doesn't matter it's all about the new testament. What about all the prophecies in Isaiah that refer to jesus being born, or the prophecies in Daniel that relate to the end times. I guess those don't matter now do they because the old testament doesn't relate to christians nowadays.

It seems to me that a whole lot of you christians are picking and choosing what scriptures suit you best. And to say that the old testament does not relate to the new testament is just ignorant.

IT'S ALL IN THE SAME BOOK. If you call yourself a christian you should be prepared to back up the whole bible not just the new testament.

if you want rational thinking arguments from a christian you are going to be very disappointed...especially religious moderates....



[edit on 7-3-2008 by Freakaloin]

reply to post by Freakaloin


yea I know my entire life i have gone to church, and everytime I want an answer not one christian has ever given me one. They either tell me to have faith or it was gods will.

hahah FAITH what a BS answer

Okay, good. It does sound fantastic but if you read the various accounts and think of them in the bigger picture, it explains quite a bit.

One way a hybrid population could be identified was based on who they "worked for" (worshipped). I personally believe this is how gentiles and hebrews were differentiated: 1 group was purely homo sapians - Noah was perfect in his GENERATIONS, and the other groups were variations on that theme. Some moreso than others. The purer the original hybridization, the higher up the ladder they were in the royal sense.

You can read evidence of this in nearly every ancient text, regardless of the culture or location.