Christians...how do you justify all of this?

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posted on Mar, 23 2008 @ 07:22 PM
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weedwhacker,
You like context ? Then examine the issue of slavery IN CONTEXT.


Don't like the levitical laws God handed down to the Israelites? PM me, we can talk about it in detail. The bottom line is that we all deserve death for the evil we've done; if you haven't gotten right with God, then does it really matter when you die? Think about it, honestly.......
I don't know which particular law you're talking about, but keep in mind that most of the those kinds of rules had to do with staying set apart from the idolatry that other nations were involved in.

There's some critical background that you really need, to understand those passages. If you're really a seeker of the truth, you'll PM (u2u) me for references and such. If not, keep on doing your thing




posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 07:58 PM
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So I didnt have time to read the entire 45+ pages of the thread, forgive me if I repeat what someone has already stated... I've studied Christianity (and all the worlds major, and some minor religions as well) and I feel I might be able to help explain a Christian response to the original video.

I saw 5 main things covered in the 10 points the video made, they can be summed up as follows:
1. Bible (notably the Old Testament) demanding the death penalty
2. One part about Jesus and self-amputation
3. Sexism in the Old and New Testament
4. Slavery Promoted in the Old and New Testament
5. Prophecy that called for death/killing of many people

1. Bible (O.T.) demanding death penalty for millions of Americans
The basic response to this requires an understanding of Abraham-based religions. The belief is that there is sin (sin being an act of rebellion against God), and that the punishment for all sins is death. So when someone sinned in the O.T., thats why they had to sacrifice animals, it was a temporary replacement for the death the person deserved for their sin. If the sin was significant enough, such as violation of one of the main 10 Commandments, things like adultery, and such, then an animal's death wasn't sufficient, the person(s) themselves had to die. Now moving to the New Testament, this is why Jesus had to die. Many people wonder this "Why did Jesus have to die? Couldn't he just live a normal life, preach and if people believed in him, yay! without him having to die?" Jesus was himself becoming the human sacrifice, and because he was deemed sinless,



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 09:20 PM
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So I didnt have time to read the entire 45+ pages of the thread, forgive me if I repeat what someone has already stated... I've studied Christianity (and all the worlds major, and some minor religions as well) and I feel I might be able to help explain a Christian response to the original video.

I saw 5 main things covered in the 10 points the video made, they can be summed up as follows:
1. Bible (notably the Old Testament) demanding the death penalty
2. One part about Jesus and self-amputation
3. Sexism in the Old and New Testament
4. Slavery Promoted in the Old and New Testament
5. Prophecy that called for death/killing of many people

1. Bible (O.T.) demanding death penalty for millions of Americans
The basic response to this requires an understanding of Abraham-based religions. The belief is that there is sin (sin being an act of rebellion against God), and that the punishment for all sins is death. So when someone sinned in the O.T., thats why they had to sacrifice animals, it was a temporary replacement for the death the person deserved for their sin. If the sin was significant enough, such as violation of one of the main 10 Commandments, things like adultery, and such, then an animal's death wasn't sufficient, the person(s) themselves had to die. Now moving to the New Testament, this is why Jesus had to die. Many people wonder this "Why did Jesus have to die? Couldn't he just live a normal life, preach and if people believed in him, yay! without him having to die?" Jesus was himself becoming the human sacrifice, and because he was deemed sinless, he was able to substitue his death for the death that we, as sinners, deserve. So the O.T. calls for the death penelty are still valid, but the death for that has already occured, in Jesus's death. Thats the basic, simple version of the justification for the first one. So no part of the Bible is calling for "death to millions of innocent Americans". Another minor point on that, if your going to assume the Bible's call for the death penelty is valid, then you can't say that the people are innocent, they would be guilty of breaking some rule in the Bible. There arguement is that they view the people as innocent, which means their already disregarding the Bible, so why should they care so much about the punishment for something they don't even think is a crime?

2. The verse where Jesus states to 'cut off your hand' (Matt. 5:29-30) was not at that time, nor really sense then, taken in a literal "take a hack saw to your hand and go at it". If you look at the surronding verses (Matt. 5:27-30) Jesus is clearly using this as a metaphore. Verses 27-28 are talking about how in the past, people where only punished for acctually commiting sins, but that his followers should rather strive for more then that, they should strive to control how they think, rather then just how they act. Its a metaphore for selfcontrol, not a literal command. No Christian (or mainstream Christian sect that I know of) would say this is literal.

3. The Bible is sexist. While parts of the Bible are reflective of the culture at the time, which was unquestioningly male dominated, saying that the Bible is sexist is to ignore much of what is in the Bible. In a day in age where women were largely treated as property, God lays out laws that are specifically intended to guard widows, and protect women from rape and assult. In cultures at the time, being a virgin was very important, so if a women was raped, her 'value' greatly droped, and as such she was looked down on more then the man that raped her, but the God's rules in the O.T. state to leave a women who is raped alone, if she resisted in any way (the stipulation that she had to resist was in place to make sure that a girl who had willingly had sexual relations before marrage didnt just accuse the guy of raping her to get out of any trouble herself. Also, the N.T. has stuff that is very anti-sexist.

Continued next post



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 09:44 PM
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The N.T. does say that women should be quiet in church, but it also says that church in general should be ordered and people (not just women) should not speak out and inturrupt whats going on. Other sections, like "women should have long hair" or "I don't let a women have authority over me" are clearly Paul suggesting things he think's personally advisable (which is why those sections start with "I don't" instead of his more common reference to Jesus or God as a basis for his statements). In addtion the N.T. commands "men love your wives as Christ loves the church". If you think about this, this is a pretty strong command. Sense in a Christian belief system the very being of 'God' is pure love, and Jesus Christ is God, this is basically commanding men to love their wives as much as a perfectly loving God loves his bride (that is, the Church). If you love your wife that much, or even close to that, you wont be abusing, disrespecting, or doing anything bad to your wife. In fact, if you look at how a the N.T. outlines marrage, its pretty much an equal partnership, a big step up for women. Many women were also mentioned prominately and specifically praised throughout the N.T. Perhaps most significant is how after Jesus' resurrection, the first wittness's are a group of women. In a day in age where women weren't even allowed to be wittness's in a court, the Christian writers are giving a group of women as their first and prime wittness to the most important tenet of their faith. To say that the Bible is sexist is to overlook much of the Bible.

4. Slavery Promoted in the Old and New Testament
Granted, slavery is talked about in the O.T. and N.T., but no where does it promote it. It lays out rules for what is acceptable, but does not say "I command you to go and accuire slaves". It's also noteable that the slaves in the O.T. all had to come from foreign nations, specifically the ones around historic Israel. It could be argued that the rough treatment was part of a punishment for their sins against God. Not sure if thats a generally accepted line for Christians, but if so it would be for the same reasons that God commanded the Israelites to wipe out all those in Canaan (which for fun I will address after all this). As for the N.T., the video conviently leaves out the parts of the N.T. where it commands the masters to be kind to their slaves. This is something that was left out when Southern slave owners in America taught their slaves that the Bible said it was ok. Like most times bad/evil things happen in the name of Christianity, its more about people taking bits and pieces of the Bible and using them for their own ends, not for acctually following a complete Christian lifestyle. Its also left out of the video when they mention the Bible being used to support slavery that in the western world the abolisist movements were started by and persued by Christian groups.

5. Prophecy that called for death/killing of many people
Some of the last examples in the video where from the O.T. books of prophecy, and refered to children being killed, etc. These were prophecy's of what would happen to other nations, not by Israeli (or Christian) hands, but by other nations. These nations were being punished by God for their great sins as a group, as had been done before when God commanded the distruction of those living in Canaan. Now I want to address that point as well, sense many people simply read "kill all the people there, and dont let one live" and see overlook why. God didn't just decide that he wanted to give some land to these people, and randomly chose some poor people to be killed, these people had, as a nation, earned their punishment. Not because they had simply rejected God. The people living in Canaan at that time practiced ritual infant/child sacrifice.

Continued next post



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 09:49 PM
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Number #1 the Lord's sabbath is Saturday not Sunday. Sunday is the first day of creation. Therefore you need to start all over with your so called Bible reading. #2 Since you seem to think God's Law's are repulsive you are there for stating that you intend to break them ALL. Religion and Follower's of Christ are NOT the same thing. It would be better for you to join the church of Satan seeing your tring to lead other's in that direction with your childish rendishions of thing's you know nothing of. You are the blind leading the blind my friend. You know that feeling of HATE you fell in your heart this is what you will feel if you dont change it. Your in darkness and you will stay there and suffer until you have a change of your hard HEART.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 10:04 PM
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The thing's of the past 20% of apocylipic phroficy which have come to pass will be nothing compared to what we the final generation will see with our own two eye's and be part of. You see the book of Daniel has been unsealed for some time now and can be fully understood just as it read's if you know what was sealed up in Daniel for US to know. We are the only generation in human history that Book and Revelation were mainly written for. It show's the Father's plan to save the maxium number of people in suck a diverse world that we live in today. So drop all the conspiricy bull# because God tell us straight to the point what He is just about to do and also answer's who,what,where,when,how,and why. It will be just as in the day's of Noah and the flood people will not listen and search for the Scripture truth for themself untill it is to late and the event's will begin to accure. Ill give you all a tip the three seal's are already opened. The forth seal will be the next. This seal is also the first four trumpet's of Revelation. So stop trying to discredit the only Book in human history that has been 100% accrate. You should be reading it instead of slandering it.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 10:15 PM
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How do any of you dare question the the Lord God Almighty Himself and His purposes for doing what He Had to do all throughout history. You think you know better. You think you are smarter then God Himself. Im not God so I dont show mercey to you like Him. If I had it my way you all would be stoned to death for you smartass remarks. This is the way they used to handle people like you. If you sence the anger comming from my words this will be nothing compared to the wrath of God about to befall the world of Satan worshiping jerk's like YOU. There is NO inbetween with GOD your either for Him of against Him. Have a good swim in the lake of fire. Oh by the way it hurt's really bad.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 10:22 PM
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tshane18,
We question EVERYTHING here. It's WHY we're here. It's what we do here. Please, we appreciate the vigor in your posts, but, you HAVE to accept WHAT we do and why.

We have to listen to every voice who brings their opinion, including yours. I just hope you are addressing us with zeal and not with anger.

Welcome to ATS.
Cuhail

ATS Moderator



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by tshane18
How do any of you dare question the the Lord God Almighty Himself and His purposes for doing what He Had to do all throughout history. You think you know better. You think you are smarter then God Himself. Im not God so I dont show mercey to you like Him. If I had it my way you all would be stoned to death for you smartass remarks. This is the way they used to handle people like you. If you sence the anger comming from my words this will be nothing compared to the wrath of God about to befall the world of Satan worshiping jerk's like YOU. There is NO inbetween with GOD your either for Him of against Him. Have a good swim in the lake of fire. Oh by the way it hurt's really bad.



reply to post by tshane18
 


That was lame your an evil person now Im glad you butted in.


People like you wana watch what you say lest you end up swimming in the fire yourselves.. then what will you do?

Sick and tired of the attitude 'some' of you Christians have, the snobbery, no compassion, no sense of awareness and no idea about psychology and how or why you even have the emotions and mentality you spill out all over people.


CHILL -- OUT. God can hold his own space.


We question a BOOK --- get that thru your heads, anything man wrote can be questioned and you have no right telling people what not to question.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 10:33 PM
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reply to post by tshane18
 


Tshane, here's something I found for you:

I Corinthians 13.

Something to think about. Unless you're a shill. In that case, you're right on target with your approach.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 10:56 PM
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I have no tolerence for slander's of The Living Word. Be a wise as a serpant and humble as a dove. Well I have trouble with both. If people dont wake up to the truth then they will believe the lie. Im not a phrofet. Im not a preacher. Im not a member of any religion organization. Im a simple Truth seeker who has been shown some real Truth. Im not special or blessed in any way shape or form. Anyone can understand these thing's. And even though i dont show it i do care for people and want them to know and understand the increadable LOVE our Creator has for us. Take a chill pill yes, I could use one but i dont care i speak my mind and if you dont like what i have to say concerning Bible Truth being sherreded apart well then that's just tough cookies. Would you rather people keep believing a LIE or read and PROVE to themself what the Truth really is. Yeshua said if they do not accept me then they will accept the one to follow me. (Lusfier claiming to be God) comming to a planet near you soon.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 11:01 PM
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reply to post by tshane18
 


I know your pain... but we have to try to reply to people with some degree of civility or they will not ever see past your anger. What did Jesus teach? Isn't he the final authority on this?



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 11:05 PM
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reply to post by tshane18
 


tshane, what part do you think is being torn apart? Could you elaborate without feeling so much emotion? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 11:18 PM
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Okay, I'm going to say this ALA Mod mode.


Originally posted by tshane18
I have no tolerence for slander's of The Living Word.


Tolerance is really the name of the game here, since it's a discussion forum. Slander is in the eye of the beholder.
Read THIS to find what we expect as far as tolerance goes.


Be a wise as a serpant and humble as a dove.

Nothing about your posts is wise nor humble, it's borderline rant and off-topic as well.
Read This to understand more on this point.


And even though i dont show it i do care for people and want them to know and understand the increadable LOVE our Creator has for us.


Why bother caring for something if you're not going to show it? Seems a bit odd that you don't show it, but, you want them to "know and understand"


Take a chill pill yes, I could use one but i dont care i speak my mind and if you dont like what i have to say concerning Bible Truth being sherreded apart well then that's just tough cookies.


It's not what you are saying it's how you are saying it.

The nature of a forum is that a member's posts reflect his maturity and intent.
To be a member here, you must be

Polite.
On-Topic.
And as consice as possible.

These traits will encourage others to reply in kind.

A discussion is the desired effect.
Ranting posts do not inspire such reactions.

Cuhail



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 11:20 PM
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Let me get some people on the right track. This is what Yeshua said. These are not my word's or interpitation of them they say just what they mean. Do you see all these thing's? I tell you the truth not one stone will be left standing upon another. They will all be thrown down. Do you understand what He mean's? Every religion will be thrown down in order to make way for the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. He mean's just what He say's. We as the final generation as Yeshua said will not pass away until all these thing's come to pass. WE are living at the greatest time in human history and all people wanna do is sing cumbyya and read and watch UFO stories. Or even a better on experiment with the occult religion's. What are you going to do when you see 1.75 billion people DEAD. MMMMM let me think. The first thing your going to think is Wow God is angry. Why did He KILL my mommy and Daddy and Rover my doggie. Well maybe it's because you didn't read about it in your Bible. Now your going to curse God arn't you. Yes you are and don't lie because you will. Here is a BIG F.Y.I. for you. Read your Bible starting with Daniel and then Revelation and if you understand God plan maybe you mommy, daddy and rover will know what the hell to do not to be caught up in the big mess that heading this way. Am I being over stated. Na it's going to be worse then that trust me. 80% of Apocylipic Phroficy is concerned with our generation. That's all the way through the entire Scripture's beginning to end. It's the Revelation of the Son Of Man. The Alpha and Omaga. The end from the beginning and the end to the beginning. There are four Law's of understanding that are reveiled in the Book of Daniel. Without knowing and using these Law's you can not come to full understanding of Daniel and Revelation and the entire Bible as well. Am I special for knowing these Law's ??? No I simply searched. Seek and Ye shall find . For there is nothing that was burried that will remain burried and nothing that is sealed that will remain sealed say's the Lord.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 11:29 PM
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We're talking about nations that as a whole supported mothers and fathers throwing their own living children into a fire to get their idol's support. They also had ritual prostitution in temples, both heterosexual and homosexual. This isnt /as/ shocking, and not considered that bad by modern people in the west, which is sad, simply because of what it means for the future of western society (different topic, can't remember this one researchers name atm). But still, these cultures where doing theres as a nation that, even today if it were done by even one individual it would shock a difficult to shock western world. Even by today's laws that person would be get the death penelty. [1] Theres better references then that, but I have a lot to do tonight. Anyways, these people weren't picked out for abuse by a hateful God, but were punished much the way we would punish the equivalent in todays world, the way any just society would deal with it.

Thats the basic Christian responce to this video. Like most people I've heard trying to attack Christianity (or any religion, belief) the do so without proper knowledge, and limit what is shown/explained, and take things far out of context. If you want to question and learn, listen to real apologetics from different religions, who really know their beliefs and those of other religions, and can argue intellegently. You know someone who can argue intellegently when they can acknowledge that their opponet has a point, and when they defend and attack based on fact, not based on incomplete and inaccurate information, like this video. Like the start, 99% of American's are Christian? I believe its close to 90% believe in some form of a deity, and about 60% or so call themselves Christians, and I would say about 50% practice a mainstream accepted Christianity (not cults, and classifying Mormons outside of mainstream, no offence intended, but no mainstream Christians would consider them traditional Christians. Again, a different discussion), and of those 50%, i would say 75% or less (probably closer to 50%) actually attend chruch on a regular basis and actually try to live by Christian standards.

If your going to argue something, know what your arguing.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by tshane18
 




Every religion will be thrown down in order to make way for the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.


Sounds like project blue beam to me. Whats your view on that? a Christian put out the info in the beginning, so you may believe it.

blue beam




[edit by Cuhail to fix quote tag]


[edit on 3/25/2008 by Cuhail]



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 11:45 PM
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It's funny everyone buy's all these book on the ENDTIME'S by Dr. Know nothing. Yet they Have the real endtime's Book and every question is answered about not only entime's but living in today's world. People are going to Physic reader's, Bible code's, 14th centry drugged addicted so called phrofet's to tell them there future. Why not go straight to the source. The One who created you and your future. If anyone want's to know what the Law's written in the Book of Daniel are Ill show them so they can read then for themself needing no preacher,priest,Dr., or anyone to tell them what there Creator want's from them. Each person has there very own personal message's within these Scripture's. If you don't believe there is a Creator and He has a plan for you then I dare you to read using these's Laws written just for you and you alone to fully understand. No to much woirk right. yYou would rather listen to other people tell you what to believe is Truth. Every person on earth has there own interpitation of everything. God has one. It's called the TRUTH. And just for kicks He put personalized information in the Truth just for you to know that He mean's business. Will you even risk your life on it? Even more will you risk your eternal life on it when the full price for all our sin's has already been payed in full. All you need is an open mind and when you read for yourself and know He is talking just to you then you will have a change of heart. The reward is PEACE and LOVE and understanding and a relationship with the One who made you in His image. You are part of God's family and He intend's to keep you in His family for ever.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 11:52 PM
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I didnt read anything about project BLUE BEAM in my studies of Scripture Truth. But i thing i remember seeing an t.v. show call star trac and they talked about project BLUE BEAM. Dude take you medication please.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 11:59 PM
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I got one for all you nut's out there. December 21, 2012 the world end's. MMMM funny God say's a different date and time. I know it's the UFO's comming on that date. No wait Bush is the anti-christ and Hillery is the faulse phrofet. You people would believe peanut butter has new micro chips in it to track your ever move if they told you. WAKE UP your getting ready to be hurded like sheep to slaughter.





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