Christians...how do you justify all of this?

Funny how people rip stuff out of context to discredit or backup the bible. It's like a 2 sided coin. It's a perpetuating non stop argument. The bible is full of bittersweetness that it's just sickening. The Christians always say well you don't understand the scripture. If everything is so simple then why does the bible have to explain everything so cryptic?

Look at Mother Teresa. All the wonderful things she has done in her life for others, all the while following Christianity. Even she questions her own faith. Why? Maybe because she realizes in her life that all that she has done isn't credited to the bible, Christianity, Jesus or GOD. She could have gotten the same results with or without. Maybe it's time to fold that old book up and put it back on the bookshelf, let it collect some dust for a while.

Funny as it may Seem and Annoying As-usual To others like an EYE-SORE







www.belowtopsecret.com...

www.belowtopsecret.com...

John 8:43-46

43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe
me?

1 Peter 3:9

9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.


Matthew 5:10-11

10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Originally posted by themillersdaughter
reply to post by Clearskies

 

It's fine that YOU believe #1 would be appropriate. And I do appreciate your answering my original query.

I believe if one is put under a supernatural delusion so that one will believe a lie, then one has been cheated of a choice, for how does one exercise free will if one suffers from a delusion?

It's hard enough NOT to believe miracles and wonders from Satan, but then one must also NOT believe a great delusion from God.

Wouldn't that make us stronger than God?

but you are completely ignoreing verse 12, those under the ¨delusion¨or error, are there because they want to be, they take pleasure in it, so how does that take out free will?

Originally posted by sean
Funny how people rip stuff out of context to discredit or backup the bible. It's like a 2 sided coin. It's a perpetuating non stop argument. The bible is full of bittersweetness that it's just sickening. The Christians always say well you don't understand the scripture. If everything is so simple then why does the bible have to explain everything so cryptic?

Look at Mother Teresa. All the wonderful things she has done in her life for others, all the while following Christianity. Even she questions her own faith. Why? Maybe because she realizes in her life that all that she has done isn't credited to the bible, Christianity, Jesus or GOD. She could have gotten the same results with or without. Maybe it's time to fold that old book up and put it back on the bookshelf, let it collect some dust for a while.

mother teresa questioned her faith? oh man....

well thats enough proof for me, do the atheists have any positions open?

[edit on 17-3-2008 by miriam0566]

reply to post by miriam0566


No, that is NOT what it says....it says because they did not choose to believe in Jesus OR the antichrist, they were sent a delusion from GOD SO THAT THEY WOULD BELIEVE THE LIE-- because they had not believed and 'delighted in wickedness' (whatever that means...maybe they were delighted someone brought their child back from the dead? Those FOOLS! Who in the right mind would find delight in THAT!) They weren't UNDER a delusion when they didn't choose God or the antichrist, but since they DIDN'T choose God, he put a mojo on them SO they would believe the antichrist....effectively denying them the chance to choose...unless of course, they were somehow stronger than a delusion from God, and chose to believe in Him regardless of His brainwashing (or delusion, or whatever it really means.)

With a God like that...who needs Satan?

Originally posted by themillersdaughter
reply to post by miriam0566

 

No, that is NOT what it says....it says because they did not choose to believe in Jesus OR the antichrist, they were sent a delusion from GOD SO THAT THEY WOULD BELIEVE THE LIE-- because they had not believed and 'delighted in wickedness' (whatever that means...maybe they were delighted someone brought their child back from the dead? Those FOOLS! Who in the right mind would find delight in THAT!) They weren't UNDER a delusion when they didn't choose God or the antichrist, but since they DIDN'T choose God, he put a mojo on them SO they would believe the antichrist....effectively denying them the chance to choose...unless of course, they were somehow stronger than a delusion from God, and chose to believe in Him regardless of His brainwashing (or delusion, or whatever it really means.)

With a God like that...who needs Satan?

what are you talking about?

2 thess 2:[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

where does it say they didn´t believe in jesus OR the anitchrist? where is the anitchrist even mentioned here? and where in the world are you getting children being raised from the dead?

verse 8 - that wicked, or the lies should be revealed. the brightness of his coming exposes the lies

verse 9 - reiterating for emphasis the lord coming after all the work satan, who uses powerful deceptions or lying wonders.

verse 10 - the wicked´s decieveableness works against them because they didnt accept god´s truth

verse 11 - god send´s the delusion, or error. there are planty of translations that read this scripture to the effect of ¨god permitted the operation error to go on so that they believed the lie¨

how many times has an atheist said, if there is a god, let him speak so i can hear him or let me see some sign. and god was silent. its been long enough that alot of people on this board are athiest. god allowing the operation of error to go on, your delusion.

verse 12 - how many people today think sex without marriage is ok? or cheating on one´s spouse is ok as long as it doesnt get too serious? what about white lies? drugs? people ¨have pleasure¨in living thier own way and doing whatever they what.

see, no antichrist, no zombie children.

reply to post by sean


Hey, don't hang that on all Christian's. Most of us mainstreamers don't take the Bible literally. You actually might have a point too. People have misused the Bible with more dire consequences then they have for any benevolent purposes. It is divisive the way it is used. Google Ghandi and read a bunch of his quotes. Mandela too for that matter.
The Fundamentalist are doing a great job of chasing away people from Jesus' message. Special place in non-existence for them, I really wish there was a hell but I guess me and the 7th days have something in common. But to say that only 144,000 are going to Heaven is just insane.
What if God wants to add just one more? Sorry God, but you are only allowed to pick 144,000. Every wack job can pull some scripture out to justify any wack belief they have. So maybe you are right, or maybe even those corrupt Catholic leaders back in the day were right, when they said the Bible is too dangerous for the unwise.

Originally posted by themillersdaughter
So, one who doesn't believe in God should not question anything in the Bible, because it's immaterial?

Do you also question Santa Claus with the same zest?

Well actually that is exactly what I'm saying. Well maybe if you are a social physiologist and you wanted to explore how religion affects society or something along those lines, but why spend so much time on something if you have no belief in it?

There are millions of topics that have little empirical data as proof, and belief or faith is all that there is. I for one do not spend a lot of time on them for they have little to do with me. I always thought that the atheist that can recite the bible and other works of religion as kind of an odd situation.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by Xtrozero]

OK I just have to put this out there because I find it quite amusing .

Why is this thread so big? I mean You would think that with all these Christians on here arguing, that their god would have blessed atleast one of them with some kind of knowledge that would get all us nonbelievers to shutup.

Seriously why does it seem like the christians can not answer any questions. With god on their side this discussion should have been over along time ago.

There are Many Types of Christians (^^,) but Intensive Training & Experience in Life must be felt and obtained until His eyes and feet are straight close and resting again in the hand of GOD. As we Grow in this Short Life Span it is proves that there is a Almighty GOD.

A GOD that is Much More Powerful than Their God that they Believe-in (^^,)

I have words to say to you my friend Is it hard to know what’s right from wrong Have you ever felt your life so self assured You don’t know the things that you’ve done wrong And then we’ll say We’ll rip out our covers Shake the walls until they break I’ll hold out my hand to you Supreme love and respect Peace man At first it seems so daunting How to start or how to grow
But make believe becomes a living Cuz in life, in life you will know Peace man







Friends & Foes We are all still living under the same sun and moon and share the air we breath and we many things in common

Jeremiah 6:16

16 This is what the LORD says:
"Stand at the crossroads and look;
ask for the ancient paths,
ask where the good way is, and walk in it,
and you will find rest for your souls.
But you said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Isaiah 34:16

16 Look in the scroll of the LORD and read:
None of these will be missing,
not one will lack her mate.
For it is his mouth that has given the order,
and his Spirit will gather them together.

Mark 4:13-33

13Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?

14The farmer sows the word.

15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

16Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy.

17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

18Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word;

19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.

20Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown."

A Lamp on a Stand

21He said to them, "Do you bring in a lamp to put it under a bowl or a bed? Instead, don't you put it on its stand? 22For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. 23If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."

24"Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more. 25Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him."

The Parable of the Growing Seed
26He also said, "This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground. 27Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how. 28All by itself the soil produces grain—first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head. 29As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come."
The Parable of the Mustard Seed

30Again he said, "What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it? 31It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest seed you plant in the ground. 32Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants, with such big branches that the birds of the air can perch in its shade."

33With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. 34He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by johnb1]

Originally posted by theendisnear69
Seriously why does it seem like the christians can not answer any questions. With god on their side this discussion should have been over along time ago.

Why do you ask? I logged on and saw seven different topics all being heatly debated about Christianity or a part of it.

By your post it is obvious that you understand the nature of the Universe, so my hat off to you. The bottom line is faith is just that…faith. About 90% of ATS is based on faith in just about every topic for I see little here that is unquestionable. I’m sure you also find everyone of them amusing too…

But looking at your posts I see you have belief in the paranormal, so maybe you can just prove that to me, I'm sure you can...

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
reply to post by sean

 

Hey, don't hang that on all Christian's. Most of us mainstreamers don't take the Bible literally. You actually might have a point too. People have misused the Bible with more dire consequences then they have for any benevolent purposes. It is divisive the way it is used. Google Ghandi and read a bunch of his quotes. Mandela too for that matter.
The Fundamentalist are doing a great job of chasing away people from Jesus' message. Special place in non-existence for them, I really wish there was a hell but I guess me and the 7th days have something in common. But to say that only 144,000 are going to Heaven is just insane.
What if God wants to add just one more? Sorry God, but you are only allowed to pick 144,000. Every wack job can pull some scripture out to justify any wack belief they have. So maybe you are right, or maybe even those corrupt Catholic leaders back in the day were right, when they said the Bible is too dangerous for the unwise.

so im a wack job now?

the bible spells things out very simply. i even backed it up with scriptures. i didnt twist anything, its written in plain english.

does this mean that all things in the bible should be taken literal and not metaphorically? no ofcourse not. there are plenty of examples.

genesis says earth was created in 7 days. literal days? simple way to find out, cross reference

2 peter 3: [8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

a day is a period of time to god, simple as that. that day could be 1 million years, or it could be a literal day. not hard to see that powers of deduction can show you when to take the bible literal and when its speaking metaphorically.

what about the 144,000? well who are they?

rev 20: 4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

so they are to be kings and judges. kings of who? logic would say those who are resurrected back to earth. this would also include the ¨great crowd¨that make it through the tribulation.

but is 144,000 to large a number for kings and judges? is it just metaphoric?

peter was given the keys to heaven, cross reference that with the illustration of the wedding feast and you have the answer. the invitation for the heavenly hope was first extended to the jews but they as a whole rejected it. the seats of the feast needed to be filled up so the invatation was extended to the samaritans (second key). a few accepted but as a whole they didn´t respond. seats still needed to be filled so the final key was the invitation to the gentiles.

evidence shows that the bible was being literal when it numbered 144,000.

it real easy to say well thats poppycock and it shouldn´t be taken literaly because of this or that. but the problem isnt with the bible. the problem is with the person. the person cant just say it simply that you disagree with god, it would mean that they would have to concede the fact that they are not serving god.

i rented an apartment. included in this rental was a contract that amoung other things says that i am not allowed to sub-let. now i could argue all kinds of things by saying, well we are friends and they are just covering thier expenses. but the fact is that legelly if i accept money i am sub-letting (this is whethter or not i agree with it)

why is the bible any different? whether you would like to believe it or not, the scriptures are staring you in the face.

Originally posted by theendisnear69
OK I just have to put this out there because I find it quite amusing .

Why is this thread so big? I mean You would think that with all these Christians on here arguing, that their god would have blessed atleast one of them with some kind of knowledge that would get all us nonbelievers to shutup.

Seriously why does it seem like the christians can not answer any questions. With god on their side this discussion should have been over along time ago.

did you read the entire thread? or are you just assuming christians can´t answer any questions?

not about getting unbelievers to shut up. never has been. if you have your own beliefs then you have your own beliefs.

but reality is that if the bible is true (and yes there IS evidence to support that) then life and the things you do in it have consequences

if you can live with those consequences, and you have said to yourself im happy with my life the way it is then fine. im happy for you. (seriously)

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by theendisnear69
OK I just have to put this out there because I find it quite amusing .

Why is this thread so big? I mean You would think that with all these Christians on here arguing, that their god would have blessed atleast one of them with some kind of knowledge that would get all us nonbelievers to shutup.

Seriously why does it seem like the christians can not answer any questions. With god on their side this discussion should have been over along time ago.

If God himself posted on this thread, not one single person would accept it unless it fit their beliefs. Anyone blaming the Jews for rejecting Christ or Jesus is a fool. Anyone who believes their Religion has the "Truth" is a fool. A nonbeliever that believes the pursuit of the Truth is a waste of time is even a bigger fool.
I tell ya what, master of the Universe, try and sit down with a pedophile and get him to believe that his beliefs about what is a healthy relationship with a child is wrong. Not a hypothetical for me. I spent nearly 10 years counseling these mistakes of nature.
So what exactly would convince you that God....Is? That is a rhetorical question.
.....On a slightly different note. Are there threads that discuss other religions by people of that religion. I thought of that as I looked back at some of Miram's posts. I know next to nothing about the 7th day people that is mostly because when they come by to the house they are not interested in a dialog and if I am going to respect their 1st amendment rights they sure were going to respect mine....So the conversation never lasts very long. I know I can Google and research that stuff but I don't want the dry dogma, I want to listen to people's interpretation of what their religion is and especially on what their understanding of Christianity is. I mean on this thread alone there has been some interesting takes on what is Christianity.

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
If God himself posted on this thread, not one single person would accept it unless it fit their beliefs.

totally agree. alot of people forget that even jesus christ didn´t convince EVERYONE.

i think because alot of people work on the assumsion that if it´s the truth, they will naturally follow it. but your totally right, if they dont agree, they will convince themselves otherwise.

Anyone blaming the Jews for rejecting Christ or Jesus is a fool. Anyone who believes their Religion has the "Truth" is a fool. A nonbeliever that believes the pursuit of the Truth is a waste of time is even a bigger fool.

I tell ya what, master of the Universe, try and sit down with a pedophile and get him to believe that his beliefs about what is a healthy relationship with a child is wrong. Not a hypothetical for me. I spent nearly 10 years counseling these mistakes of nature.
So what exactly would convince you that God....Is? That is a rhetorical question.
.....On a slightly different note. Are there threads that discuss other religions by people of that religion. I thought of that as I looked back at some of Miram's posts. I know next to nothing about the 7th day people that is mostly because when they come by to the house they are not interested in a dialog and if I am going to respect their 1st amendment rights they sure were going to respect mine....So the conversation never lasts very long. I know I can Google and research that stuff but I don't want the dry dogma, I want to listen to people's interpretation of what their religion is and especially on what their understanding of Christianity is. I mean on this thread alone there has been some interesting takes on what is Christianity.

im not sure if you were refering to me or not but just to let you know, im not a 7th day.... er... person. in fact before you saying that i never knew they were a group.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by theendisnear69
OK I just have to put this out there because I find it quite amusing .

Why is this thread so big? I mean You would think that with all these Christians on here arguing, that their god would have blessed atleast one of them with some kind of knowledge that would get all us nonbelievers to shutup.

Seriously why does it seem like the christians can not answer any questions. With god on their side this discussion should have been over along time ago.

did you read the entire thread? or are you just assuming christians can´t answer any questions?

not about getting unbelievers to shut up. never has been. if you have your own beliefs then you have your own beliefs.

but reality is that if the bible is true (and yes there IS evidence to support that) then life and the things you do in it have consequences

if you can live with those consequences, and you have said to yourself im happy with my life the way it is then fine. im happy for you. (seriously)

There is probably a TON of christians on this thread right now. I didnt take the time to read all of the posts.

The bible was written very vaugely. Read it and you could compare any of the events in the bible more than once in history. Same goes with nostradamus. Vauge discriptions, could relate to multiple events. One could say the bible is true, hes probably right, but the bible is too vauge.

Also wach the video Zetgeist. it expains alot.

reply to post by miriam0566


the Master of the Universe stuff was replying to the guy about convincing the non-believers.

I refer to Morman's as the 7th dayer's Latter Day Saints 7th advents...or something like that...I don't know the title they use.
All I know or rather all I have heard is that.....their founder convinced people that the end was on some specific day...it came and went and all those people of course sold or gave away all they owned. then "Smith" or whatever his name was, moved to Utah and started over....they believe they possess a book that has the specific names of all the people that are going to Heaven...maybe the "Book of Life" or something like that. and that 144,000 people is the number. I think they don't believe Jesus is God
and of course Revelations is an important book to them.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


Res....if you're referring to Mormans, it was Joseph Smith (now THAT is a generic name!!!)!!!!

Anyway, this 'Smith' told his followers that 'god' "SPOKE" to him, and him alone. The funny thing is, people actually believed this nonsense.....

AND, result: A NEW religion!!! Hallejuah!!! Praise....whoever.........

Magic underwear....multiple wives....seven layers of secrecy, into the innermost 'holies of holies'....very much like the Egyptian religions, seven layers, and the nonsense, etc., etc.

Guess what? Joseph Smith was a 'fan' of ancient Egyptology...go figure?

Originally posted by shiman


The bible was written very vaugely. Read it and you could compare any of the events in the bible more than once in history. Same goes with nostradamus. Vauge discriptions, could relate to multiple events. One could say the bible is true, hes probably right, but the bible is too vauge

you mean vague like how it mentions the person who would conquer babylon by name? or the fact that is says how babylon would be conquered? or the fact that the prophecy was written 200 years before cyrus was even born?

ISA 44:[27] That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
[28] That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isa.45
[1] Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
[2] I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

enlighten me, what other situations in history could this be talking about?

what about exact day of jesus´coming

Daniel 9:25
"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem, unto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

furfillment
John 12:12-13
" 12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord."

notes
Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem occured 173,880 days (483 X the Hebrew 360 day year) after Artaxerxes' decree was given in 445 B.C. (as recorded in Nehemiah 2:1-20) to rebuild Jerusalem. This was the first time that Jesus allowed anyone to proclaim him as "King." Note, the Hebrew word for "week" is "shavua" and literally means "seven." Therefore, in Hebrew, the idea of 70 weeks is "seventy sevens." The meaning of the word "weeks" was used in reference to both days and years.

just one of over 300 prophecies regarding jesus. google it, its a good read

Jeremiah 25:11-12
"…This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt," declares the Lord, "and will make it desolate forever."

when assyria conquered babylon, both prophecies came true.

yea... vague.

reply to post by miriam0566


miriam, very nice cherry-picking of bible quotes there!

How about pointing out all of the mistakes in the bible as well??

Advocating slavery, advocating stoning for wearing clothes of different cloths, etc, etc, etc...

If you want to 'thump' the bible, you have to take it in its entirety, not just the bits you happen to like......