Christians...how do you justify all of this?

It is a start and that is good.
A couple of things to take with you, IMO
Don't fear God
Keep in mind that God loves more than you can so to get a glimpse of God's love, think about who you love and how much, and know that God loves them more.
I've been doing this since the early 1970's
Love thy neighbor
forgive and I'm not kidding with this next one,
work really hard at purging hate from your heart, it is nearly impossible but it is so important. There is no such thing as "righteous anger" anger is anger and it is the emotion behind hate. hate will seperate you from God more than anything else.
If I had to sum it up in one sentence;
Love all you can and Hate as little as you can.
You will get strength by learning the life of Jesus and what he did and said.
You will be lied to by those you trust but if you just remember these things then you will not be manipulated and your faith will not be weakened

Originally posted by miriam0566
Yes you are right about this they are the same, well pretty much anyway, but comparing Catholisizm and Lutherans is like comparing Candy and sweeter candy. It's all sugar. There are only 2 differences between the 2 religions. The Lutherans believe that the sacrament is a representation of the body and blood of Christ whereas the Catholic's believe it IS the body and blood of Christ. The other difference is that the Catholics believe in forgiveness by confession through a Priest and the Lutheran's believe that forgiveness comes directly from God.

Well, if we got tech. there are more than 2 differences....Catholics have 7 sacraments. Lutherans 2 Catholics have the Pope.... Lutherans their committee or whatever.....yes, Catholics believe in the transfiguration of the body and blood for communion. Lutherans..."in rememberance" but truthfully we all know we are eating the dry waffer and cheap wine in rememberance but for me the forgiveness of sins part just before communion makes me feel good. Catholics...Mary ascended into heaven without dying....Catholics pray to saints..."but that is traditional type thing"
anyway.......there are more than 2 differences if we were all technical about it.

Not sure about your age but if you are old enough to remember how taboo it was for a Catholic to marry a Lutheran then you can understand that we have come along way since then.

Oh, I don't know people that go to confession anymore, kind of another tradition. But as a kid we had to complete that "sacrament" at least once.
I argued with the Priest the whole time and told him that I was there under protest and that I talk to God and don't need a middle man to talk for me. I must have been 11 years old or so. I went through confirmation in both the Catholic and Lutheran Church but of course could only be "confirmed" by one denomination. Another Catholic sacrament.



edited excessive quoting

please read ABOUT ATS: Warnings for excessive quoting, and how to quote

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 16/3/08 by masqua]

Originally posted by Clearskies



Those that don't want truth(Jeshua); will get the untruth of the antichrist.
It's not total doom. People will still convert and choose to get their heads cut off instead of dooming themselves to hell for the antichrist, if they don't die of something else first.(heart attack, hit-and-run)
Much like Israel could choose either Barabbas or Jeshua and many chose Barabbas.

****Also much like in the Garden, when Adam and Eve had a choice of the Tree of Life or The Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil, and they made THE WORST choice. The Tree of the knowledge of Good and evil.
So, HERE we are.****



[edit on 15-3-2008 by Clearskies]

Now I can Say all about this response and Opinions are ART of Philosophy to the Highest Level pattern of Diplomacy by using the Internet and with the Help of the TEAM on This Web Bot Project and Soon More Super Natural Things will be Heard around the World Different time and Places.

JESUS CHRIST SAY IT in ADVANCED and I johnb1 say it also the same.

link



Ecle 3:15

[edit on 16-3-2008 by johnb1]


[Mod Edit - shorten link, to fix page format]


[edit on 16/3/2008 by Sauron]

reply to post by Clearskies



From the Book of Revelations:somewhere...I don't have a Bible handy.

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

It seems you want to twist the words. It doesn't say "because you CHOSE the anti-christ, you'll be condemned"...what it SAYS is: "For this reason GOD sends them a powerful delusion SO that they WILL believe the LIE and so that all will be CONDEMNED who have not believed the truth..."

It seems to me, you consistently try to make the words fit with your belief that the DELUSION is the antichrist, but the delusion is FROM GOD so that they will BELIEVE the lie (or the antichrist). And then be condemned.

And try as you might to make it fit...it just doesn't.

God puts a spell on the people who have NOT chosen the antichrist so that they WILL choose the antichrist. I didn't write it...it's in the Bible. If so, then God decides people who haven't fallen for the miraculous wonders of the antichrist, but who have also not chosen for Him will no longer have the choice because they are under a POWERFUL DELUSION from God "so that they will BELIEVE the lie".

Where's the free will there?

It would be pretty hard NOT to fall for miraculous wonders as a human. I believe it's miraculous when people are brought back to life through CPR. I mean, obviously, they are alive and talking when they were dead before. So, I can see people falling for miracles. Especially in an age where we need some.

If God puts a big mojo on a person to make them believe the lie, couldn't he have put the same big mojo on them to make them believe in HIM?? Why must He make one believe the lie just to be condemned...why not make one believe in Him so one can reap the benefits?

Like I said, and I think it's the point of the whole thread...if you believe one thing in the Bible, shouldn't you also believe everything?


ps-
My favorite Ben Franklin quote is: "God made beer to prove to us that He loves us and wants us to be happy."

Edit for clarity.

[edit on 3/16/08 by themillersdaughter]

The Most Miraculous Thing that Will Happen to A Man is to change His/Her Life to goodness discard all evil ways in a mans heart and Walk to the Ancient Path that God has Always Offer to All of Us. I hope this explain it well simple and plain no cryptic and Bible passage.

Love Above All (^^,) Cheer-Up







[edit on 16-3-2008 by johnb1]

johnb1

that's cute
i like your positive look on things.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Why is it that when Christianity is called into question, almost all the time, some Christians try to change the topic to Islam? I have noticed it in almost every thread that has been posted about questioning acts of Christianity on here.

[edit on 16-3-2008 by DJMessiah]

Some related issues:

Chris White attacks Alan Watt for not being a Christian and is torn apart by the Outlaws

This one has the audio of William Cooper, a Christian himself, talking about the Masonic symbolism present within Christianity:

The case against Chris White (proof he is wrong)

Originally posted by DJMessiah
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Why is it that when Christianity is called into question, almost all the time, some Christians try to change the topic to Islam? I have noticed it in almost every thread that has been posted about questioning acts of Christianity on here.

[edit on 16-3-2008 by DJMessiah]

Brainwashed by media bombardment, maybe?

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
We are talking about the same thing when we refer to the Trinty aren't we?
Father, Son, Holy Ghost. (spirt) whatever.

If we are then the other issue would be that I think you are saying that Jesus was not Emanuael (spelling sucks) "God on Earth" or is it "God amoung us" whatever, it means God as man.
Now that is interesting if that is what you are saying.
I am surprised that I never asked my fundamentalist friends this question, "if it isn't in the Bible than it is of no importance?" Please tell me that the books the Nicene Council decided to include are not the limits for you. How much of "God's Word" has been lost because of "editing"?
-------------------
I hope you aren't using just the Bible to determine the Trinity doesn't exist.
When you feel God's presence is it him or the Holy Spirit? What exactly is the difference? Is the Holy spirit like an appendage of God's consciousness? For me the Trinity has no significance as far as any understanding goes but I sure couldn't rule it out because the edited Bible doesn't spell it out.
Does anyone say that the Trinity is important to believe in? That isn't a rhetorical question because I have never given it much thought and I assure you I have given the whole religion spiritual thing a lot of thought since I was old enough to think. I drove Priests and teachers crazy challenging everything.

assuming god is all knowing and infallible....
assuming the bible is inspired by god....

then it would be likely that god would have some hand in deciding what is included in the bible. if a book is not included, one could say that it is not inspired from god.

so the question is, why is the trinity (a supposed pilar of the christian faith) not mentioned in the bible? infact there are plenty of scriptures that show jesus praying to god, god speaking to jesus, tons of references refering to jesus as only begotten son. in particular john 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. how is it that god would come to earth and still noone has seen god?

again referenceing hislop´s two babylons, pagan religions also believe in trinities, especially ones that can trace thier history back to babylon.

so then you raised the question of well is this all really impotant?

2 corinthians 6:14 - ...and what communion hath light with darkness?

john 4:23 - But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

if the trinity is not truth, would god wish you to believe and preach it?

reply to post by themillersdaughter


MANY will be saved out of the Great Tribulation, (The Time of Jacob's Troubles, The Snare.)

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There will still be a choice DESPITE the power of the antichrist!

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
Miriam,
There was a poster a little while back that said that Christian's from one group are not to attack other Christian's and that Jesus said this. Now I am not a Bible literalist as you of course know, but I am never comfortable going against anything that is attributed to something Jesus said.
I just want to make it clear that I only challenge certain aspects of your Christian understanding. I mean if I were Republican and you were Democrat we would both still be Americans and we both could love our Country the same. So I am not attacking your "Country" just your particular partisianship.

Now with that out of the way. I want to ask you the question I ask all of my Bible thumping friends. "Who isn't going to Heaven and where are they going?" Now, before you answer, I want two answers. I want the one you believe and I want the one you "want" to believe or would do if you were God.

wow tough question

this is my belief.

first, condition of the dead without the benifit of jesus´s ransom. most would say these people go to hell.

gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

wasn´t given a soul, he became a soul

gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

god here tell´s adam that for his diobediance, he will ¨return¨ to the ground. he would return to nonexistance.

psalms 146: 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts do perish

if you can´t think about it anything, does it matter if you are in heaven or hell? reaffirms nonexistance.

eccl. 9 :5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

again, non existance

eccl 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

again, non existance

ok so then what about the faithful, those who can benefit from the ransom of Jesus?

rev14 [1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

so 144,000 go to heaven, what about the rest? is earth just a proving ground for a few?

isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

so the earth is purposed to be inhabited.

matt 6 [9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

what is god´s will for this inhabited earth?

psalms 37 [9] For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
[10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
[11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

so besides the 144,000, the rest of the faithful will live on earth. but what´s the point if we have sickness, death, crime, etc etc?

rev 21 [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

hence what god intends the earth to be like after armageddon.

summary - faithful 144,000 go to heaven, rest of faithful will live on earth when god´s kingdom comes. rest will go into nonexistance.

as for what i would do if i were god? honeslty, i don´t know. im being completely honest with you when i say i have never thought about it.

i noticed that there are a few posts flying around about the anti-christ and who he is, interesting thing is theres a scripture that frankly says who it is.

1 john 2:[18] Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
[20] But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
[21] I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
[22] Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
[23] Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

reply to post by Clearskies


I was referring to the quote I shared with you from Revelations--I'm well aware of other quotes that say you have a choice.

Will you continue to deny that the Bible says DIRECTLY that God will "greatly DELUDE" people who have made NO choice SO that they WILL CHOOSE the antichrist?

It seems you don't want to address the direct quote from the Bible. It's there in black and white, just as plainly translated as the rest of the BIble.

reply to post by themillersdaughter

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
* *** strong ;

energeia
1) working, efficiency

a) in the NT used only of superhuman power, whether of God or of the Devil

****delusion;

plane
1) a wandering, a straying about

a) one led astray from the right way, roams hither and thither

2) metaph.

a) mental straying

1) error, wrong opinion relative to morals or religion

b) error which shows itself in action, a wrong mode of acting

c) error, that which leads into error, deceit or fraud

*** Should believe;

pisteuo
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence

b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity

a) to be intrusted with a thing

I believe #1 is appropriate.


2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Might be damned;

krino
1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose

2) to approve, esteem, to prefer

3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion

4) to determine, resolve, decree

5) to judge

a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong

1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it

b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure

1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others

6) to rule, govern

a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment

7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants

a) to dispute

b) in a forensic sense

1) to go to law, have suit at law

Now, I am of the opinion that it's #1,
1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose

because many will be saved. So, it will be an illusion, where choices can be made in faith, for God or the antichrist. It will be a strong delusion, because satan will have a reign on Earth as never before, with all passion and pomp.
A seperation. For the whore religion or the bride.



[edit on 16-3-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by Clearskies


It's fine that YOU believe #1 would be appropriate. And I do appreciate your answering my original query.

I believe if one is put under a supernatural delusion so that one will believe a lie, then one has been cheated of a choice, for how does one exercise free will if one suffers from a delusion?

It's hard enough NOT to believe miracles and wonders from Satan, but then one must also NOT believe a great delusion from God.

Wouldn't that make us stronger than God?

Originally posted by themillersdaughter
Wouldn't that make us stronger than God?

Well first you would need to believe that there is a god. If you did believe then would you think there were any logic loops that could make you greater than he is? If you believe in god then maybe it really doesn't matter to him which religion you are part of as long as you believe. I guess that is something to take up with him and each one of us when we die. If you do not believe in god then does anything written about him really matter to you?

reply to post by Xtrozero


So, one who doesn't believe in God should not question anything in the Bible, because it's immaterial?

That's very convenient. For people who don't want to be questioned about apparent inconsistencies in the Bible.

Unbelievers should not read the Bible.

reply to post by undo


Thank you very Much (^^,)

Colossians 3:1-3

1Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Matthew 24:21

21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Daniel 12

The End Times

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Revelation 7:9,14

The Great Multitude in White Robes

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

14I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


"Salvation belongs to our God,