Christians...how do you justify all of this?

Originally posted by Res Ipsa

(((open to interpretation is not a good answer and it is the cop out I am talking about. You know as well as I do, that we are to "minister" bring people to Jesus or God. (of course I suck at that and don't bother) but I bet it has some value to you. Do you think that anyone with half a brain is going to be convinced about what they are told? No, we prey on the vulnerable who have hit rock bottom and then we create a "Born Again" Christian out of them that can't recite the mantras and scripture better than anyone, they talk in tongues, they are saved, changed. Their faith is built out of a house of cards. If you want to convert than focus on Jesus' teachings and stay out of the old testament. Focus on the relationship with God and not the "thy shalt not's"
More of a response than asked for, but I didn't want you to think that I was some 16 year old kid.

never for a second thought you were a 16 year old kid. i think your smart and you have a very clear opinion on matters, however....

2 tim 3:16- All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

even though christian are not under mosaic law anymore, that doesnt mean throw the OT.

also you said "Do you think that anyone with half a brain is going to be convinced about what they are told? "

yes, yes i do, if your teachings are consistant with the bible.

many people who come here and say "before you judge my knowledge of the bible, let me just say ive read it from cover to cover" are fooling themselves. if they honestly researched it, you find ALOT of the churchs doctrines are not supported by the bible including the trinity and hellfire.

if you want to see how most christian religions are mostly pagan ripoffs, read the "two babylons" by rev hislop. hard read but it shows how pagan beliefs have slowly replaced those of the bible.

as for "convincing people". well if they listen they listen, if they don't they don't.

I am going to let you in on a secret. You do not need to take the bible literally. The main key of the bible is following Jesus' teachings. That was the main thing, the old testament is okay too but it does not concern our daily lives. The 10 commandments of Moses are already within each and every single one of us whether you are Jewish, Muslim, Pagan and etc. It is called morals and ethics. Well it is a little different considering you don't worship idols before thy God and keeping the Sabbath day holy.

Other then that, Christians should mainly be concerned with the teaching of Christ:

1. "FORGIVE EVERYBODY OF ALL THEIR OFFENSES AGAINST YOU."
(Forgive, and be forgiven.)
2. "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN."
3. "ABIDE IN ME, AND LET ME ABIDE IN YOU."
4. "LET PEOPLE SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS." (Do not hide your light
under a basket.)
5. "END DISPUTES QUICKLY."
6. "WHATEVER CAUSES YOU TO SIN, GET RID OF IT."
7. "DO NOT SWEAR OATHS AT ALL."
8. "DO NOT RETURN OFFENSE FOR OFFENSE." (Turn the other cheek.)
9. "GIVE WHAT PEOPLE ASK OF YOU, AND GIVE MORE THAN IS REQUIRED."
(Go the extra mile.)
10. "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES AND THOSE WHO WORK AGAINST YOU."
11. "GIVE TO THE POOR TO PLEASE GOD, NOT TO GAIN APPROVAL
FROM OTHER PEOPLE."
12. "PRAY PRIVATELY AND SIMPLY, NOT TO IMPRESS OTHER PEOPLE."
13. "MAKE YOUR PRAYERS BE LIKE THE LORD'S PRAYER."
14. "WHEN YOU FAST, DO IT SECRETLY, NOT FOR SHOW."
15. "STORE UP YOUR TREASURES IN HEAVEN, NOT ON EARTH."
16. "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT YOUR MATERIAL NEEDS."
17. "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THE FUTURE."
18. "MAKE GOD YOUR HIGHEST PRIORITY, AND HE WILL TAKE CARE OF
ALL YOUR NEEDS."
19. "DO NOT JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE." (Judge not, lest ye be judged.)
20. "DO NOT GIVE HOLY THINGS TO DOGS OR CAST YOUR PEARLS
BEFORE SWINE."
21. "ASK GOD FOR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO HAVE." (Seek, and ye shall
find.)
22. "FEED THE HUNGRY, CLOTHE THE NAKED, SHELTER THE HOMELESS,
COMFORT THOSE IN DISTRESS."
23. "FOLLOW THE NARROW PATH TO LIFE." (Enter by the narrow gate.)
24. "BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS."
25. "EXERCISE POWER OVER UNCLEAN SPIRITS."
26. "LOVE LITTLE CHILDREN, DO NOT DESPISE THEM."
27. "DO NOT TAKE THE TITLES 'MASTER' OR 'FATHER' FOR YOURSELF."
28. "RESOLVE DISPUTES IN AN ORDERLY WAY, LIKE THIS . . . "
29. "DO NOT OPPOSE OTHER BELIEVERS IN CHRIST WHO ARE NOT IN YOUR GROUP."
30. "HAVE TOTAL FAITH IN GOD FOR EVERYTHING."
31. "BE LIKE THE GOOD SAMARITAN." (Go, and do likewise.)
32. "LOVE OTHER PEOPLE AS I HAVE LOVED YOU"
33. "EAT BREAD AND DRINK WINE IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME."
34. "WASH ONE ANOTHER'S FEET."
35. "BE MERCIFUL."
36. "GO AND TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM."
37. "KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."
38. "BE PREPARED FOR YOUR MASTER TO RETURN."

Honoring these laws is what Christianity is all about. I am not very Christian and I understand that. Don't worry what any priest, popes or bishops say. In the end it will be you that is going to be judged and not the priests, bishops and popes.

I hope that helped the least bit.

Here are a few questions I have that I think will further prove that there is absolute contradiction in the Bible...

The book of Genesis say’s that Lucifer was cast out of Heaven. In other parts of the Bible, it tells us that “Satan” and the “Demons” cannot stand in the presence of God, yet in the book of Job, it tells us that Satan went to the very throne of God Himself to ask for permission to temp Job! We are also told that Jesus went into the desert where Satan had no problem what so ever appearing before Jesus in order to tempt him for 40 days!


I would also like to ask that if Darkness is evil, what did God exist in before he created the light? Why is Darkness the bulk mass of the Universe? If Darkness is evil, how is it that the scientists have discovered that the “dark void of space” is not void at all, but contains a MASSIVE amount of energy called “Dark Matter”? This energy is so powerful that a pin head amount of it could supply humanity with power for 100 years! Is this the power that is the source of all life and Creation as a whole? This energy exists everywhere and in all things as a scientific fact. It is the power by which all things are. It is the very definition of God. It is the darkness through which light travels.

reply to post by ForceMaster


The book of job is old, very old. Satan is not "blocked" from accessing the Divine Council. There's more than one kind of "heaven" described in the bible. There's the heavens/heaven (the starry firmament) and Heaven (God's domain). I suggest you read Norse mythology and do a comparative analysis between them. Check out Loki. He's the equivalent of the sumerian Enki, who was the biblical Satan.

[edit on 15-3-2008 by undo]

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
many people who come here and say "before you judge my knowledge of the bible, let me just say ive read it from cover to cover" are fooling themselves. if they honestly researched it, you find ALOT of the churchs doctrines are not supported by the bible including the trinity and hellfire.

That depends on which Bible you read. The Catholic Bible has books in it that aren't found in the protistant Bible, and although I haven't read all of them I understand there are more Bibles out there, or at least more interpretations of it that have even more then those two. Not sure about that one, just something I heard.

An interesting read I picked up recently. "Who's Bible Is It?" A history of the scriptures through the ages. by Jaroslav Pelikan



fixed quote

[edit on 16/3/08 by masqua]

This thread is very interesting and great fun to read. After playing the intellectual game for a bit I really have only one comment though. Or maybe a question.

If the basis for Western civilization is really the idea of a father who sets tasks for his children that will result in either eternal salvation or damnation, why are we surprised it is screwed up?

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Res Ipsa


never for a second thought you were a 16 year old kid. i think your smart and you have a very clear opinion on matters, however....

I'm not sure you are convinced of that yet. After all you are suggesting that I think you can toss the O.T.



2 tim 3:16- All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Not a bad scripture but I would not agree with "for" rather I would believe "or" because the Bible does each of what you said there but all of those elements are not true all the time. Noah's Ark has a meaning but it isn't "God saying, uhh, better start over" not profitable for correction or reproof. You can't convince an intelligent person of a truth using a proof from the same source you are trying to prove. 2 + 2 is 5 because it says it right here in my book of Holy Truths. Old T is obviously important and I would never suggest throwing it out.


yes, yes i do, if your teachings are consistant with the bible.

That is the circular logic thing I am talking about.

many people who come here and say "before you judge my knowledge of the bible, let me just say ive read it from cover to cover" are fooling themselves. if they honestly researched it, you find ALOT of the churchs doctrines are not supported by the bible including the trinity and hellfire.
Yeah, that is like me saying, I have read the entire Constitution and so I know it.
But that Trinity issue is interesting because earlier you accused me of believing just what is comfortable for me to believe. (most people do so I don't fault your assumption) but the Trinity, I would put the trinity and hellfire together too but I feel I am wrong about the trinity. I think someone could put a good argument together for me.

How about this for a bold statement; There is only two questions I don't have an answer for or "insight" to in my belief structure, otherwise I have an answer for everything without one contradiction or logical flaw.
What is Heaven and who goes? Accepting Jesus as your Savior is not going to hook you up and better than Joe Jew that spent the last 20 years taking care of his blind grandmother. I digres...... the trinity... I think or feel there is something to it, enough to say that I won't or can't say it fits into the "there is no Hellfire" belief I too have. My basic point with this is that, here is another example of how I don't believe just what is comfortable to me. You know how the relationship with God thing works and you know when you are getting good reception you feel the truth.
Don't rule out the trinity just yet.

Originally posted by enchantress62


That depends on which Bible you read. The Catholic Bible has books in it that aren't found in the protistant Bible,

Honestly I am not trying to insult you here, but there is not a single difference between the Catholic and protestant Bibles. Let me be more precise. The Roman Catholic Bible and the American Lutheran Church Bible is word for word the same. Yes, there are different versions out there, King James, Spongebob's, etc.
But you know, there are churches of these denomanations that still think some archaic stuff. You can still find pre-Vatican II Catholic masses in some places. Then lets just say this, as a general practice, we Catholics and we Lutherans (protestant obviously) have the same Bible. It is almost impossible to tell the difference between the two denomanations these days.



fixed VERY confusing quotes

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[edit on 16/3/08 by masqua]

reply to post by medjhiesco


If the basis for Western civilization is really the idea of a father who sets tasks for his children that will result in either eternal salvation or damnation, why are we surprised it is screwed up?


I'm not sure if this is a waste of breath or not, but, God did not set any tasks for you or anyone else. Isn't it funny that we call God "the father" yet no one who is a "father" tries to compare the two in order to understand?
Let us say that I am a great father to my 4 kids (not so much) but for this hypothetical we are saying that. Why did I have my kids? Did I have them to sing my praises like that Bill Cosby sketch..."dad is great....for giving us chocolate cake..." no I didn't. Did I have them so I could tell them what to become when they grow up? no. Did I have them so I could be the boss of them. (my brother would say that...."you ain't the boss of me!) What do we want from our kids? That of course is going to have levels of subjectivity depending on if we are saintly or asses and to what degree between the two.
We as fathers want our children to be happy and yes we also want to be loved by them just even if it is a fraction of how much we love them.
Those that have a "difficult" relationship with their human fathers probably have some problems with understanding who God the Father is and is about.
But to answer your question. I can't relate nor do I know the God you are referring to, so I couldn't give you an answer that would be more narrowly tailored.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


Res, it sounds like you are aware of your own children. Could your god be less? Good, bad or indifferent? Our kids are our kids.

That is my point.

[edit on 15-3-2008 by medjhiesco]

Originally posted by ForceMaster
Here are a few questions I have that I think will further prove that there is absolute contradiction in the Bible...

[/qoute]The book of Genesis say’s that Lucifer was cast out of Heaven. In other parts of the Bible, it tells us that “Satan” and the “Demons” cannot stand in the presence of God, yet in the book of Job, it tells us that Satan went to the very throne of God Himself to ask for permission to temp Job!

I quit a required college religion class over this stupid scripture. Don't take it literal, it makes God look like some fool that can be manipulated, what a joke!


I would also like to ask that if Darkness is evil, what did God exist in before he created the light? Why is Darkness the bulk mass of the Universe? If Darkness is evil, how is it that the scientists have discovered that the “dark void of space” is not void at all.

My friend, darkness is not evil, just some absence of light. Void on the other hand is just that, void, nothing is there, if there is dark matter then it isn't in a void is it? It is however nearly....no it is...impossible to comprehend how "God always was" I can wrap my mind on infinity as far as going forward is concerned, but going backwards into infinity blows my mind. Who created God? Who created the being that created God. Who was the first, how in the hell were they the first?
Things obviously exist in the dark. pitch black you still have molecules and stuff. You should try and define evil as the absence of God.
Work it out from there. Where isn't God? no where. where is no where?
It is non-existence, it is a complete and utter void of anything. Of course there is no light there so it would be "darkness" but there also is no molecules, dark matter, etc.
Define Evil correctly and you get some great logic.

Originally posted by medjhiesco
reply to post by Res Ipsa

 

Res, it sounds like you are aware of your own children. Could your god be less? Good, bad or indifferent? Our kids are our kids.

That is my point.

I do very much want to understand what you mean or are asking but I don't think I do.
There is no way for me to love my kids more than God loves my kids. I can not posses a virtue that comes from whom creates the virtue.
I can not, under any circumstance, send or agree to letting my child go to hell, for any reason. I would insist on taking her place. I would curse the God that is less forgiving then myself, less loving, less anything.
If God was the God the Bible literalist say he is, then I would say, screw him. He doesn't deserve any attention from me and I'm not going to be forced to fake my aderation for him just so I can get into Heaven. The God portrayed literally in the Bible is flawed. My God isn't. My God right now might be putting his hands over his eyes as I write this but thats only because I'm being unnecessarily combative or contraversial.
....I might have not answered your question at all but if you clarified I sure would like a shot at it.

[edit on 15-3-2008 by medjhiesco]

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Res Ipsa


That depends on which Bible you read. The Catholic Bible has books in it that aren't found in the protistant Bible,

Honestly I am not trying to insult you here, but there is not a single difference between the Catholic and protestant Bibles. Let me be more precise. The Roman Catholic Bible and the American Lutheran Church Bible is word for word the same. Yes, there are different versions out there, King James, Spongebob's, etc.
But you know, there are churches of these denomanations that still think some archaic stuff. You can still find pre-Vatican II Catholic masses in some places. Then lets just say this, as a general practice, we Catholics and we Lutherans (protestant obviously) have the same Bible. It is almost impossible to tell the difference between the two denomanations these days.

Yes you are right about this they are the same, well pretty much anyway, but comparing Catholisizm and Lutherans is like comparing Candy and sweeter candy. It's all sugar. There are only 2 differences between the 2 religions. The Lutherans believe that the sacrament is a representation of the body and blood of Christ whereas the Catholic's believe it IS the body and blood of Christ. The other difference is that the Catholics believe in forgiveness by confession through a Priest and the Lutheran's believe that forgiveness comes directly from God.

There are differences between the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible, although when I read each it was hard to distenguish between them. At my age my brain is somewhat fried so it's hard for me to remember but there's several books that were left out of the Protestant Bible. I can't remember if it's 3 or 13 but something like that.



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[edit on 16/3/08 by masqua]

Originally posted by ForceMaster


The book of Genesis say’s that Lucifer was cast out of Heaven.

where? if i remember correctly, thats in revelation. chapter 17 i believe.

In other parts of the Bible, it tells us that “Satan” and the “Demons” cannot stand in the presence of God,

where?

yet in the book of Job, it tells us that Satan went to the very throne of God Himself to ask for permission to temp Job! We are also told that Jesus went into the desert where Satan had no problem what so ever appearing before Jesus in order to tempt him for 40 days!

which is fine considering that jesus is not god

I would also like to ask that if Darkness is evil, what did God exist in before he created the light? Why is Darkness the bulk mass of the Universe? If Darkness is evil, how is it that the scientists have discovered that the “dark void of space” is not void at all, but contains a MASSIVE amount of energy called “Dark Matter”? This energy is so powerful that a pin head amount of it could supply humanity with power for 100 years! Is this the power that is the source of all life and Creation as a whole? This energy exists everywhere and in all things as a scientific fact. It is the power by which all things are. It is the very definition of God. It is the darkness through which light travels.

are you saying that because the bible mentions darkness in relation to evil that literal darkness is evil? its an illustration. a metaphor. simple as that.

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
Don't rule out the trinity just yet.

if the trinity was true, it would be nice to have it mentioned by the bible once, just once. but it isn't at all. the closest thing trinitarians have to it being mentioned is the father, the son and the holy ghost mentioned in the same sentence. nowhere does it say they are one and yet deffierent.

check out the two babylons. it gets into that alittle and how this pagen teaching found its way into church dogma.



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[edit on 15-3-2008 by miriam0566]

[edit on 15-3-2008 by miriam0566]

[edit on 16/3/08 by masqua]

reply to post by miriam0566


We are talking about the same thing when we refer to the Trinty aren't we?
Father, Son, Holy Ghost. (spirt) whatever.

If we are then the other issue would be that I think you are saying that Jesus was not Emanuael (spelling sucks) "God on Earth" or is it "God amoung us" whatever, it means God as man.
Now that is interesting if that is what you are saying.
I am surprised that I never asked my fundamentalist friends this question, "if it isn't in the Bible than it is of no importance?" Please tell me that the books the Nicene Council decided to include are not the limits for you. How much of "God's Word" has been lost because of "editing"?
-------------------
I hope you aren't using just the Bible to determine the Trinity doesn't exist.
When you feel God's presence is it him or the Holy Spirit? What exactly is the difference? Is the Holy spirit like an appendage of God's consciousness? For me the Trinity has no significance as far as any understanding goes but I sure couldn't rule it out because the edited Bible doesn't spell it out.
Does anyone say that the Trinity is important to believe in? That isn't a rhetorical question because I have never given it much thought and I assure you I have given the whole religion spiritual thing a lot of thought since I was old enough to think. I drove Priests and teachers crazy challenging everything.

As A True Christian This Is 1 of the many reasons that How We Justify all of this

Miriam,
There was a poster a little while back that said that Christian's from one group are not to attack other Christian's and that Jesus said this. Now I am not a Bible literalist as you of course know, but I am never comfortable going against anything that is attributed to something Jesus said.
I just want to make it clear that I only challenge certain aspects of your Christian understanding. I mean if I were Republican and you were Democrat we would both still be Americans and we both could love our Country the same. So I am not attacking your "Country" just your particular partisianship.

Now with that out of the way. I want to ask you the question I ask all of my Bible thumping friends. "Who isn't going to Heaven and where are they going?" Now, before you answer, I want two answers. I want the one you believe and I want the one you "want" to believe or would do if you were God.

reply to post by johnb1


Johnb1,
I watched it against my better judgment and I should have listened to my better judgment.
It makes God sad that you or others are told to "fear" him. You can't have a personal relationship of the kind he desires through any fear.

To obey him so you may have eternal life. That honestly makes me depressed.
To be a "God fearing Christian" is to control you. You become controlable by the authorities of the religion that tell you what God wants and expects
I can't convince you of anything and if it works for you then who am I to tell you different.
After all it works for the Japanese culture to fear their fathers.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


Thank you for your Concern

It is Started in My life December 18, 2002





THIS IS MY PART & GLORIOUS QUEST A GOAL COURSE of MY LIFE others they Called it a TARGET or DREAMED in LIFE.

1 Timothy 4:14

14Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

To Reach the unreachable Bright Shining Star

the Purpose Driven LIFE






[edit on 15-3-2008 by johnb1]