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posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:22 PM
reply to post by P-a-r-a-d-o-X-2

Hmmm...I see something interesting happening here, in this thread. I see non-believers (anti-Christians) quoting scripture!! Explain this, how is it that when a Christian quotes scripture to defend their belief that the scripture is debunked immediately by a non-believer, but that same said non-believer quotes another scripture and wants justification/understanding? If you don't believe the Word of God, then why would you pull verses out of nothing and try and use it against 'said believer'? This is exactly what Satan did to our very own Savior in the wilderness. Satan knew nothing and knows nothing of the light of the scriptures nor the Son of God, because Satan is bound in *eternal* darkness where darkness perceives not the light.

Before I came to the knowledge of the truth, I myself couldn't tell you one thing about the Word/Bible. Why? Because I had no understanding 'yet'.

Anyway I see you've now removed your post. That's interesting too!!! You want to understand the verse you used/quoted and this was the verse
Luke 14:26-27)
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Yahshua (Jesus) loved not anything above the "mission" of taking up His cross and allowing Himself to be the ultimate, one and only, once and for all sacrifice for sin. He denied Himself and chose to 'go against the grain' and become the sacrifice Himself. So your focus is predominately upon the word 'hate' there, but actually it is to mean this: if you are willing to follow in His (Yahshua's) footsteps, it is a prerequisite that you are willing to even deny yourself FOR the love of Christ as He denied His-self for you.
That is the beauty and mystery and ultimate, unconditional love of God through His Son, not even the angels in heaven understood that love. So it is a 100% guarantee that darkness certainly comprehends it not. Even us today as believers don't fully grasp the love of the Father, but it is a 100% guarantee that we ALL will know on that great day
And that goes for you and everyone non-believer who dare to take a verse from Him and use it as though it were their tool against those that honour, worship and serve Him. It is a weapon you (non-believers) have no idea of the power it holds.

And lastly, maybe you can understand this:

(1 Corinthians 1:22-24)

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:23 PM

Originally posted by zephyrone
First you must understand that Christians believe in the afterlife and that there spirit survies past the death of the flesh. Life on earth in the flesh is just a test. Good-Evil. Which path easy or hard. Your spirit is your real being. Your flesh body is just your "character" or "game piece" in this test.

The way I use to explain it is a video game. When you(spirit) are playing a video game you(spirit) control what the character(flesh body) is doing. You make choices during that game. If you killed a character(flesh body) during that game you(spirit) do not die.

Now if God is a spiritual being and knows that your spirit lives on after your flesh dies, because that is what you where before you were born in the flesh, why would he have a problem telling you to kill in his name? He knows that it is just the flesh dieing and your spirit ot true being lives on. What is barbaric about that?

If you are not a Christian and do not believe in the afterlife in the spirit then yes it would seem barbaric. Only true question is: Do you believe or not?

Hope this made some sense.

No, it don't. Why have the 10 Cs regarding moral conduct/killing when it all don't matter?

posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:24 PM
reply to post by zephyrone

Most of the people killing in the name of God are just saying that for their personal material gains. Im sorry, but no one can prove or disprove that God personally told them to do harm to another being.
All Im saying, is, if some guy above you in rank says god came to him in a vision and said to have the army kill this other army, or whatever, you better ask god to speak to you personally before you go killing or hurting anyone else based on another mans words.
And its true about what is not born does not die, your eternal soul and such,, if you can understand that, then why not endure your suffering without adding any more to anyone who understands any less?
"forgive them for they know not what they do"
"if someone flogs you on the right cheek, lend them your left as well"
"therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law"
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and his disciples: The teachers of the law and the pharisees sit in moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

or whatever.

posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:31 PM
reply to post by Elisha4Yah

Interesting post. Would you care to comment re my post about Alpha & Omega on page 2?

posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:33 PM
Just a little history note. The passages that are being quoted where God told Joshua to kill every man woman and child and even all the livestock take on a new meaning if you truly understand the context.

It requires you to read Genesis 6 and see that Fallen Angels mated with human women and created a race known as the Nephilim. They were giants and they were not human.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
Genesis 6:3-5

When the Jews sent spies into the promised land they saw them and were afraid to fight. God made them wander 40 years in the dessert because they were afraid of the nephilim.

Numbers 13:33
We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."

The Nephilim occupied the promised land and that is why they were ordered to kill everything. They were not humans but Angel/human hybrids with corrupted DNA.

This is what the scripture says. God didn't order it without reason or for purely Nationalist reasons. It was genetic warfare.

posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:37 PM
I doubt I will listen to the vid. Why? Because there are only 3 schools of thought on Christianity; Those that want to discredit it for MANY MANY reasons and those that are disciples of Christ and those that are ignorant.

We're all ignorant, but only in certain subjects."~Roy Rogers

All I have to say to those that WANT to listen, all I have is my testimony of how I got to the truth of how God reveled himself personally. Before my 20th birthday (I'm 49 as of this day) I went to church maybe twice.

If you'd like my full testimony, I'll gladly type it out for you, just beware, it will be long to help you better understand, I didn't have a choice. Spend 20 years in a prison ..and then have someone come to you and take your place in prison and set you would you feel?

However, I will say this to the skeptics, if you'd like to know if God really does exist, ask him directly and in earnest of heart.. WARNING....before you ask... make you're ready for the answer!!

To those that are disciples; you will be saved only by 2 things in the last days, you very own testimony and the Blood of the lamb.

Oh, by the way, to the one that says within themselves..."Why should I have to ask GOD to make himself real to me!?! Why doesn't he just do it!!?"

ANSWER: Because HE wants to make sure you know it's HIM and not yourself or just your own thoughts

QUESTION: Would you give your whole life, to God if HE DID reveal himself to you personally? meaning, you would say "God, I would serve you the rest of my life if you would reveal yourself to me that you are real? Prove to me you're real and I will serve you until I die?(If God is the GOD of the universe, shouldn't he be able to at LEAST DO THAT?)

posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:38 PM

Originally posted by crestone
No, it don't. Why have the 10 Cs regarding moral conduct/killing when it all don't matter?
The 10 c's are mans(flesh) law in respect to one another, not the laws pertaining to the spirits. You need to seperate the 2 or you won't be able to understand.

posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:44 PM
I dont know, I wonder the same thing from time to time. I cant get through Gen without yelling BS! about 20 times...I believe in God, but I dont believe in many of the books in the bible. Most of the stuff I believe is out of faith. I have no proof, but I do for whatever weird reason have faith.................that seems to be enough.....My own feelings do get in the way whenever I remind myself that it is mostly jewish crapola, remade for a new religion.....but then I take a happy pill and all is right again.

BUT...........if God came to me and told me to do something you better believe I would do it. My only line in the sand would be, I could not hurt innocent people. Other than that, I pretty much owe God everything so that would be that.

[edit on 6-3-2008 by TXMACHINEGUNDLR]

posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:46 PM
reply to post by Bigwhammy

but GOD is all seeing and all knowing and all powerful, yet allowed what you suppose?!?!

It is all nonsense.

The OP has a point, but neglected to to carry it the last few yards...RELIGION is the problem. We are smarter than that, we do not need silly beliefs in non-existent 'Gods' in order to carry on in our lives!

We can be Spiritual, sure...but this concept of a 'bible' or 'torah' or 'koran' has got to be let go, if we wish to advance!!

The 'torah' is the oldest, but isn't it pre-dated by the Sumerians and Egyptians?? Or the Incas and Mayans? Or the Hindus? The Buddhists???

People, please, open up and accept that NO 'religion' is going to provide all of the answers you seem to desperately seek. These (not all) generally want your tithe, in order to sustain their tax-exempt status (at least in the US).

Probably the only good thing, and a long-standing 'rule', is do unto others. It is basic, it is simple. AND, it is, unfortunately, naive. THAT is the problem.

posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:47 PM

Originally posted by crestone
God is the Alpha & Omega and his "word stands forever" (I Peter 1:24). Why does Jesus' appearance change anything regarding what was written in the OT? I never understood that logic ...

[edit on 6-3-2008 by crestone]

OK. Here's is the difficult part of explaining what you've asked. It is as equivalent as handing a 5 year old mathematic equations and expecting that 5 year old to comprehend it. In another word, you are starting from the top and trying to understand, but you've missed some crucial steps. So you have to go back down the stairs and sit at the bottom of calvary (the crucifixion) and start there
You cannot get in any other way, I don't know what else to tell you, these aren't my words, they are the words of the Alpha and Omega, here: (John 14:6)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Also you have to abandon mans logic. Read the verses again that I quoted above from (1 Corinth 1:22-24) 22:For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23:But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24:But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

[edit on 6-3-2008 by Elisha4Yah]

posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:48 PM
Yes, I totally agree Bigwhammy! The Nephilim seems to be a fairly 'new' subject of the last 3 years with me; which is intresting because It's only mentioned a few times in the old testament. Since Joshua was ordered to kill The Nephilim, means they somehow survived the flood.

posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:49 PM
reply to post by Elisha4Yah

Elisha, with respect...look at the video again!!!!

posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 11:59 PM
ok, ill be honest, u cant watch the video cause my ps3 doesnt have the flash required. but i will say this. the bible is only as correct as it has beem translated. it has been altered by many, pages removed and passages rewritem. in my opinon and as part of my belief three main books must be read to fully understand the bible, you need the old testement, the new testiment, and the Book Of Mormon, all three will bring a better understanding,

posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 12:14 AM
For your consideration.

To be honest this is a lot deeper than it is necessary for me personally to go, but I doubted you would accept that I am in "loving Obedience to Christ". I instinctively follow the "law" because i know it pleases my Creator.

The old covenant was for the Jews only. For one to be under the Old covenant they need to convert to Judaism. In the new covenant, it is for both Jews and gentiles. In Eph.2 when we believe in Christ we becomes part of the body of Christ, not Judaism. God made a whole new entity called the church, the body of Christ, and filled it with his spirit to operate in his ways.

Hebrews 8:6, "But now hath He (Jesus) obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a "Better Covenant, which was established upon "Better" Promises". The new covenant is Not a covenant of works but rest in his work. By it all the Body of Christ ' is not under of the condemning ministry of the law (2 Cor. 3:9; Rom. 8:1-2 there is no condemnation), since believers are not under the law they are beyond its grasp to condemn.(Rom. 3:19).

Paul states in Rom. 6:14..." for you are not under law but under grace." He also makes it clear in Gal. 5:18 "if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." The previous verses state "so that you do not do the things that you wish." The Law is not given to the Christian as the standard to live by, but to show the unbeliever how below the standard we do live, as Paul states in 1 Tim.1:9 The Law is for the unrighteous.

Paul states the LAW is Not of Faith. The ministry of the law working in a Christian cannot please God, for it is not of faith yet the law is not of faith, but "The man who does them shall live by them." Gal. 3:12

In the dispensation of grace, "the law is not of faith." Today faith and law are mutually exclusive. In Israel's dispensation of law, faith and law were equally beneficial, one needed both (Rom. 10:5-6, 10).without faith the requirements of the law would not be acceptable. This is why The Lord said that he rejected their sacrifices because it was not mixed with faith. Under law, faith is necessary. Under grace, the OT law is prohibited. So today, "the law is not of faith." And Paul states without faith, it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6). So if the Law is not of faith what do we live by? For a member of the Body sins by putting himself under the requirements of the law. Remember Paul said in Rom. 14:23 "whatever is not of faith is sin." ( he used the example of food to represent this concept).

Righteousness we need cannot come from the Law. For the law demands perfect obedience. Gods standard is perfection, something we cannot fathom since we never see it or experience it. It is impossible to please God by following the law, because the law is not of faith. Righteousness pleases God, but today righteousness cannot come from doing the works of the law, but from faith alone. Faith which shows that it is alive and active.

Rom. 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. Paul further makes it clear in Gal. 3:21 "For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law." In the past, with Israel under the law, righteousness and the law went together (Rom, 10: 5-6, 10), but now Paul writes, the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed... Rom. 3:21 We know that today, Christ is "the end of the law for righteousness." Any requirement any command all that God asked Christ fulfilled.

So there must have been a time in the past, when Christ was not "the end of the law for righteousness."

Gal 3:23-25 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor (teacher for the immature)."

This time was Israel's, as a whole nation under the law. But when God moved from law to grace, Israel resisted that move, preferring the old program of rules and regulations from Moses, illustrating the danger of law. The law looks appealing today, but it separates those who embrace it from the Spirit of grace.

For [Israel] being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For ' Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Rom. 10:3-4

posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 12:14 AM
I just got in and checked my email and was pleased to see so many well thought out posts and differing opinions on the matter were added. To answer one persons question, by saying that I am on the fence in regards to Christianity and religion in general, it was just a friendly, non judgmental way of saying that I have severe doubts about all of it but I try and maintain an open mind.

Most likely I would fall into the category of agnostic since I believe and pray to no specific God. I do believe that there is a higher source of being out there more enlightened than myself. Do I believe the bible and it's teachings? Not really. My opinion is that it serves as a decent means to base your life around if you need such a crutch to exist. It teaches moral and valuable lessons in certain sections and is an excellent read. Do I believe it literally, absolutely not. But again, I try and keep an open mind, and the subject itself and other peoples point of view interest me a great deal.

My problem, more or less, is the fact that even in this thread there are Christians who are still making excuses for what is written in their bible. People are still choosing to flaunt and embrace those scriptures that they agree with, the friendly and loving verbage that they so adore. Yet they choose to ignore the fire and brimstone, the death and murder and carnage that is in the SAME BOOK. You can't have one without the other. All of this talk of reading between the lines and understanding what context certain parts are written in is B.S. It is convenient that the only parts of the bible these Christian folks choose to label as non literal are the passages that cast their religion poorly and place their God in the role of murdering manipulator.

You cant have it both ways. You cant pick and choose. You either believe that it is God's word or you do not, ugliness and all. If you decide to only adhere to the portions of the bible that fit your own agenda, then you are a blasphemer, a hippocrite, and you are placing your own personal judgment above God's word. This is all my opinion and mine alone, but it would seem that one who picks over an established religion and uses the pieces to morph together their own religion is a heathen and standing against the teachings of their God and his word.

Am I wrong? Would God want you, as a mere mortal, to revise and change his teachings? That is quite an auspicious role to take on indeed.

posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 12:15 AM
reply to post by goodshotpayne

With all respect, goodshot....

Nice try! Lumping Mormon into it, not gonna fly in this crowd!!

Five stars for effort, one for accomplishment.....

(imaginary stars, of course...didn't think I would actually GIVE you Real stars?)!

[edit on 7-3-2008 by weedwhacker]

posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 12:20 AM
I'm sorry but the guy that made the video is a complete moron. He has no idea of the story line of the Bible or how out of context everything he is doing is. He would be embarrassed if he were smart enough to read it first.

Above I explained the killing when the Jews entered the promised land. Genetic warfare with the fallen angels. There were reasons for every single levitical law too. All the clean unlean/ stoning to death served a purpose. But it was only for Jews.

The video takes scripture out of context! it is sooooooooooooo stupid.

God chose the Jews to deliver the Messiah. He had to keep them pure from the genetic attacks to preserve a line for Gods own seed to enter the woman and fulfill the Genesis prophecy. After Christ was born those laws are no longer necessary.

OK here's a good example of those crazy laws....

100 years ago Medical Doctors were killing 1000s of patients because they didn't know about germs yet. They would go from patient to patient wit out washing their hands. They spread diseases everywhere, and were clueless.
So the date for science discovering this is aprox, 1900

OK lets go to Leviticus circa 1446 B.C.
Lev 15:8
And if he that hath the issue spit upon him that is clean; then he shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even.

lev 7:19
And the flesh that toucheth any unclean [thing] shall not be eaten; it shall be burnt with fire: and as for the flesh, all that be clean shall eat thereof.

Wow so only some 3500 years or so before the smartest men figured it out God had told his chosen people all about bacteria and germs. Because he wanted them to be stronger and healthier to prove he was the true God and so he could bring Jesus into the world.

[edit on 3/7/2008 by Bigwhammy]

posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 12:21 AM

If you'd like my full testimony, I'll gladly type it out for you, just beware, it will be long to help you better understand, I didn't have a choice. Spend 20 years in a prison ..and then have someone come to you and take your place in prison and set you would you feel?

Interesting. And you attribute this to God in what way?

And to answer your question, how would I feel if I spent 20 years in prison, only to have someone come and take my place?

I would be happy that the other person finally showed up, and awfully pissed for having spent 20 years of my life in prison.

Please feel free to elaborate on your story, it sounds like a real doozie.

posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 12:25 AM
All your religions pale in comparison to the great Cthulhu.

As I Awaken from my fitful slumber, I summon the Ancient Things from the blackest abyss, for They are the purest distillation of myself. Our struggles will allow us to evolve into what we must become. The Emerald Kingdom of Great Cthulhu is at hand.

May he emerge and devour our essence first, to leave our suffering to a minimum.

posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 12:31 AM

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Go ahead and make a post on this forum, anouncing that you put up a video saying that Islam is detestable, so I can watch it.

To be honest, in my opinion, Religion is detestable!

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